Seems like Ivy League Admissions Should be Easily Predictible - Someone Educate Me!

Parent Cafe
121

"admission would be merit-based, my D has a good chance. Unfortunately, I pull her admission chances down - i am educated, married, neither in prison, nor on drugs … "

Oh please. Plenty of us on here, myself included, sent our kids to elite schools and we are educated, married, not on drugs or in prison and live perfectly boring average suburban lives.

If you had come on these boards asking sincerely to have your mind opened, people would have helped you. It is snark like this, plus your absolute fixation on a handful of schools, that makes it difficult to want to help you.

122

I think someone’s yanking chains again. Uneducated/single parents, prison records, drug histories, etc, are not hooks. Any parent seriously trying to help his/her kids has a responsibility to those kids to go beyond clever phases or sweeping statements and build a knowledge base. It’s not that hard.

If you want a college that looks to bring together individuals with breadth, depth, good will, energies, and the savvy to climb out of the one little hs box, then you will need to be one of those types. Same in life.

If all you want is to study and go home, pick a college that only expects that.

123

Excellent point. When you look at the activities that my daughter and her friends (at her school and at others as well) are involved in, you’ll see that participation in extracurriculars is an integral part of the college experience for lots of kids. If anything, D is more involved in her school community and beyond than she was in high school. And it’s that involvement that makes building the “community” at colleges so important. When you acknowledge that college is more than coursework, it makes sense for admissions to look for a mix a students with varying interests outside of the classroom instead of simply choosing the most academically advanced or smartest or best test takers.

124

In general, I don’t like to speak for my children, but in this case I am going to make an exception. I am sure that my children would trade any “advantage” they had or might have in the admissions process to go back to the day before their lives were irrevocably altered.

That someone sees having a drug-addicted or imprisoned parent as the golden ticket to an elite education makes me sick to my stomach. Usually, it is a straight ticket to nowhere. It takes a child of exceptional strength to surmount that type of experience.

125

And I doubt most kids in those situations attend elite colleges - some are probably lucky to get through community college. Like with anything else, I’m sure a few kids with severely disadvantaged backgrounds to get into elite schools. But I’m sure there are far more that don’t.

And who are you to decide that your daughter has more merit than those other kids applying?@californiaaa

126

“Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Columbia seem to be significantly more selective these days than the bottom half of that conference.”

Really? Below are the 2016 overall admissions rates for the Ivy League. Do you really think the rate for Princeton or Columbia is all that different from that of Dartmouth or Brown?

Out of 100 applicants Harvard admits 6 of them, Yale and Columbia admit 7, Princeton admits 8, Dartmouth admits 9, and Brown admits 10. I have a hard time seeing that as all that big of a difference.

Harvard: 5.9%
Yale: 6.8%
Columbia: 7.4%
Princeton: 7.9%
Dartmouth: 9.4%
Brown: 9.6%
Penn: 12.3%
Cornell: 16.2%

I think you are looking at school fame rather than admissions selectivity. .

127

My first impression when I read this was, “Why would you care what a moron thinks?” But perhaps that’s unfair. I’ve learned by reading CC for a number of years that some people in other countries–and also, some people who have recently immigrated from other countries–are really quite ignorant of American colleges. So I suppose that if you plan to make your career in one of those countries, you might reasonably care about the reputation of your college in that country. So maybe it really would make sense to go to Berkeley over Rice if you’re planning to go to China to work. (Maybe.) But if you’re going to stay in the United States, it makes a lot more sense to actually learn how things work over here.

128

“Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Columbia seem to be significantly more selective these days than the bottom half of that conference.”

Like there is a meaningful difference between a 90% rejection rate and a 95% rejection rate. Get real. If you are planning a picnic, do you distinguish between the 90% and the 95% chance of rain?

Comments like this are the usual CC counting of angels dancing on the head of the pin. It’s like people don’t have ability to think conceptually. No - gotta pretend there are meaningful differences between Harvard and Brown.

129

Hey, @Pizzagirl, I’m going to ding you here for the same analytical flaw you’ve pointed out in other’s posts (although it’s not as severe). You can’t know how significant the difference is between the 95% rejection rate at Harvard and the 90% rejection rate at Brown (if those are the right numbers), unless you know a lot more about the applicant pools at those schools. For example, what percentage of applicants at the two schools are really “no hope” applicants? If (just for the sake of argument), this is a higher percentage at Brown, then Brown might be significantly “easier” to get in for applicants who have Ivy-grade qualifications.

130

“Seriously, I had a Chinese colleague, who rejected resume from Rice, because he thought that Rice is an agricultural institute.”

I assume he also ruled out Cornell University, Wheaton College, and Ryerson College in Toronto. :))

131

Ok fair point, but what evidence is there to suggest that there is a meaningful difference between the levels of no-hope applicants?

132

“That someone sees having a drug-addicted or imprisoned parent as the golden ticket to an elite education makes me sick to my stomach. Usually, it is a straight ticket to nowhere. It takes a child of exceptional strength to surmount that type of experience.”

Exactly. But this is why when a student with great test scores, recommendations and grades with that background does have a “hook” with a disadvantaged background. Because to be where they are under those circumstances tells the admissions office they have a special kid on their hands. Its a hook but one which is well deserved and which nobody would ever want who didn’t face those obstacles

133

Lots of informative anecdotes on this thread… just wanted to add some “tidbits” son learned along the way in successful ivy quest this year … so for what its worth:

guidance counselor said beyond UW4.0 Triple 7 club most likely admits depend on what unique perspective -nationality, state, race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, group they are looking for to fill class- as most ivies trying for a well balanced, real life perspective from classmates that gives students real insight in differing perspectives for national conversations/world issues/politics affecting different groups… (IMO food for thought for essays)

Son (didn’t end up applying here) reached out to Columbia band director in summer as an All State musician looking to apply … once established that he had the min #'s (GPA, SAT) was told he would be placed in recruited pile (there are definitely 2 separate piles) and to send all essays and resume before applying as director worked w/ someone who was ex-admissions rep w experience to know how to make sure app gets beyond first look… * so really pays to reach out to coaches/directors etc…

Was also in conversation w an ivy admissions rep and told they aren’t looking necessarily for students that help themselves when faced with adversity, rather looking for students who reach out for help from others/ higher ups/advocates when faced w adversity… I thought this was interesting

Kindness matters …as evidenced by Harvard and Ivy new trend towards kindness and altruism in admissions. We felt a definite social impact awareness from these schools in our dealings/visits/info gathering/talks this year.

134

I don’t know–but I’ve got to suspect that the applicant pool for Harvard and the pool for Brown are different in significant ways. For example, if a lot more people apply to Harvard, the 10% admitted to Brown would matter. Also, I suspect that Harvard gets more super-qualified applicants–people who, for various reasons, have and know they have a very good chance at admission to highly selective schools. I suspect that there is a group that applies to HYPS, and then one or two other Ivies, which may or may not include Brown.

I’m just saying that there would be a lot to study if you really wanted to understand the odds.

135

I think what’s new about the kindness and altruism is that there’s more public talk. Concern for others has been a component for some time. You can google Turning the Tide. This is from Harvard GSE:

"As of today, Turning the Tide has been endorsed by a growing list of 85 stakeholders across college admissions and education. Many endorsers have already committed to implementing changes consistent with the report recommendations – from revised essay questions and marketing materials, to the development of entirely new recruitment, scholarship and high school programs focused on community engagement and caring for others.

“Turning the Tide does a tremendous job articulating many of the things we have looked at for a long time at Yale,” said Jeremiah Quinlan, dean of undergraduate admissions at Yale University. “In response to the report, Yale has agreed to add a question on next year’s application asking students to reflect on their contribution to family, community, and/or the public good. We will also advocate for more flexibility in the extracurricular forms on both the Common Application and Coalition Application so that schools can more easily control how they ask students to list and reflect on their extracurricular involvement.”

But that won’t be easily gamed for top colleges.

136

I no longer volunteer for Brown as an alum- but my (obsolete) observations on the applicant pool are as follows:

1- Brown does not get the “Hail Mary” applicants to the degree that Harvard does (i.e. parents pleading with the kid “at least apply to one East Coast school/Ivy League School/School that Grandpa has heard of” even if kid knows he can’t get in or has no interest). But Hail Mary applicants don’t do well at either institution from what I’ve observed.

2- Brown gets a pretty significant number of applicants who hear “Pass/Fail” or “No Core Curriculum” and think that they are going to be a perfect fit because they’ve got a shaky HS record and did poorly in math and plan on never taking another math class. These types of applicants get rejected at an almost perfect rate. Brown gets enough well balanced/high scoring/high GPA types so that they don’t need to fish down to pluck out the kid who can’t get a B in HS Trig.

3- Brown gets a huge number of artsy/boho kinds of applicants. In my day, these fell into two buckets: The ones who were otherwise indistinguishable from top applicants to any competitive college (i.e. high scores, top grades, great recommendations, great involvement and non-academic interests) but the artistic stuff was a net plus- and these kids have a very good chance of serious consideration. The second bucket are the kids with mediocre stats who are hoping that their artistic inclinations and interests will get them in. These kids essentially have zero chance of admissions. Brown gets enough kids who can take a few classes at RISD and do well; perform in various orchestras, plays, etc, AND be top academic stars on campus, so the university doesn’t need to “pad” the class with the artistic types. They are applying anyway, and the ones that get in have tremendous academic records.

4- Brown is currently working very hard on a couple of core institutional priorities- first gen college students, racial/ethnic/socio-economic diversity, etc. To the extent that someone in admissions is going to be generous evaluating an applicant, it will be the kid from rural Appalachia who is the first in the family to complete HS, let alone aspire to a four year college education. NOT the kid from Winnetka or Atherton who has B’s in chemistry, bio and physics and is full pay; dad is a surgeon, mom is a banker.

I want to emphasize this last point because it does explain, to some extent, why kids and parents and GC’s are so monumentally mislead by admissions statistics (not just at Brown). A kid sees the bottom quartile and thinks, “hey I have a shot”. A parent sees the median and thinks, “Wow, my kid is right there- for sure this is a reach but maybe it’s really a match”. A GC sees the range and thinks, “it could happen to my kid, right? Someone is getting in with these scores!”

Yes, someone. But the kids clustered at the low end statistically are truly something special- unicorn special. I’ve written before about the kid who took a Greyhound bus and then two modes of public transportation to get to me to interview- no car, was too bashful or humble to suggest that we meet closer to where he lives. An outstanding student in every possible way coming out of a bottom of the barrel, underfunded public school system in a rural area where NOBODY was expected to go to college. Voracious reader and intellectual- had pretty much swallowed the town’s public library. Interested in everything. Kind, humble, teachers loved him; keenly interested in science and had decided to go to community college to become a health care tech (which would have made him the first “professional” in his family) until a teacher showed him the Brown viewbook (back in the viewbook days). Got a fee waiver and applied. I believe his SAT’s were at the low end, but this kid was mesmerizing. Like having coffee with Winston Churchill except the kid was from a one-traffic light town in the middle of nowhere.

As an aside- and I know I’ve mentioned it here before- I found the legacy angle to be mostly PR while I was interviewing. PR in the sense that we wanted alums to know that we’d treat their kids nicely during the process because of course, being a legacy is really and truly meaningful. But did it have ANY impact at all on admissions? Not so far as I observed. The kids who didn’t have a prayer of getting in still didn’t have a prayer of getting in.

Hope this helps.

137

Great post, @blossom - makes perfect sense to me.

138

“For example, if a lot more people apply to Harvard, the 10% admitted to Brown would matter.”

The actual numbers of students who applied are this:

Harvard: 34,285
Brown: 28,742

I’m not sure whether you consider 19% more to be “a lot more.” And Princeton is even closer to Bown. P received 26,664 apps and admitted 7.9%, while Brown received 28,742 apps and admitted 9.6%. Not a lot of difference in those numbers, yet folks elevate Princeton to be in the Ivy stratosphere but relegate Brown to the “bottom half” also-rans.

139

A personal anecdote that suggests there might be a difference: When I was looking at schools (ages ago, when the admission percentages for both Harvard and Brown were much higher), I applied to – and was rejected by – Brown. I did not apply to Harvard, as I recognized that I was not “Harvard material.” Can’t say whether I was a “no-hope” applicant to Brown (I did get in to Duke, which suggests I was not altogether clueless), but my thinking then suggests (if such thinking remains prevalent today among high school seniors) that Brown’s applicant pool may indeed include more “borderline” applicants.*

*conversely, Harvard may attract some truly hopeless applicants who don’t know any better and are attracted to the Harvard name.

140

Assuming blossom’s observations to be true (and I have no reason to doubt her perspicacity on this, or much else), it seems that we still don’t know whether Brown gets a lower percentage of Hail Mary applicants (“just toss something in that grandpa recognizes”) or a higher percentage (“they’re pass fail and I’m artsy, so yo, bro”). Maybe they cancel one another out, who knows. It’s a very fair point. Nonetheless, my personal suspicion is that once you cleared out all the Hail Marys from the system, acceptance rates at any elite college are still pretty low. And the fact that acceptance rates for vals and 2400s ain’t all that grand supports that (as those folks aren’t Hail Marys).