self segregate no more!

Colleges & Universities A-Z Cornell University
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<p>these themed housing started from the own student’s demands for a place on campus (similar to the A3C demands now) </p>

<p>also these houses did start “back in the day” and are a continuation of that…</p>

<p>while it is natural and students are free to associate with who they want…i dont think it’s exactly right for cornell (or any school) to reinforce this by providing culturally themed housing…</p>

<p>my idea for expansion of MCLLU (which already takes up about a 1/10th of Dickson Hall) is a compromise for getting rid of the other 3 cultural houses while still providing a space for those missions…</p>

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<p>my only issue with the A3C is that it’s a really bizarre acronym.</p>

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<p>In the context of this discussion (ethnic themed program houses), it’s ostensibly clear “who they are most like” is a proxy for “same race” or “same ethnicity”. So, in essence, you’re saying a person can expect to be “most like” others who share their racial make-up. (I know I’m somewhat putting words into your mouth, but these are NOT outlandish assumptions. You basically say this by stating blacks find comfort in being around other blacks in Ujumma.)</p>

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<p>But here you contradict yourself. You, yourself, engage in stereotyping simply by stating blacks will feel more welcome amongst other blacks. This implies that one can presume a group of blacks will possess certain personality traits that other blacks will find appealing. That’s stereotyping. That’s assuming characteristics of a group based on race.</p>

<p>So while you encourage others to not stereotype, by believing blacks will be more comfortable in Ujumma, you are stereotyping. How can I see blacks as individuals when people like yourself and the Cornell administration keep telling me blacks are different and need different circumstances to succeed?</p>

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<p>I don’t think anyone is complaining that blacks only want to hang out with each other. People are free to do what they please. I think the opposition is mainly that Cornell encourages this segregation through official theme houses. I’ll stop complaining when there’s a WASP student center/program house. (And as an aside, isn’t it a little odd to have an “African-themed” dorm? Isn’t Africa a pretty big place with lots of ethnicities and lots of different cultures and traditions? And does it include North Africa or just sub-saharan/black Africa?) After all, whites can’t be expected to be comfortable around all those (20% of Cornell) Asians, right? Especially in electrical engineering where whites are assuredly a minority? Where’s the ECE White Minority Affairs Office?</p>

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<p>oh PLEASE, get over yourself dontno.</p>

<p>you are such a ■■■■■.</p>

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<p>while he might be trying to stir **** up…i found his post made some very good points chendrix!</p>

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<p>It would be NEGLIGENT, I repeat NEGLIGENT, for colleges to ignore the special needs of certain groups. As a college, if you’re going to use athletes in order to generate revenue or minorities in order to boost diversity, you have make sure they can get through college. If you’re not going to provide the 1800 SAT student with extra support, then don’t bother admitting them. That’s why the graduation rates at LAC’s and top privates for URM’s are the same as those for Asians and Whites while the disparity is greatest in larger schools like Cornell or Berkeley. With the proper support, URM’s can succeed. Pretending that everyone’s equal would be ignoring the very real disparities that exist in the education of different races.</p>

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<p>This is an interesting point you bring up. Right now, we are taking a course in cultural medicine. We attend seminars with topics like “Special LGBT concerns” or “Hepatitis in the Latino Community.” One of my faculty members brought up an excellent point: it’s a fine line between stereotyping and acknowledging very real group differences. I don’t want to automatically assume that my Latino patient has diabetes simply because the incidence of diabetes is 2x as high in the Hispanic community when compared with other races. I don’t want to automatically assume that my Chinese patient would need a Mandarin translator. But, I need to be aware that these needs COULD exist. I need to be prepared to discuss diabetes if my patient population is predominantly Hispanic. I need to have a translator ready if I work in a predominantly Chinese community. I would be a poor physician if I practiced medicine the same way regardless of the needs of my patient population.</p>

<p>Likewise, I don’t want to assume that all blacks are the same or that they will only want to hang out with others of the same race. But, I need to acknowledge that minorities have special needs (I don’t think anyone would deny that) and that being around familiar people can often ease the transition from HS to college. The cultural-themed program houses provide the OPTION for URM’s (the few there are) to live together (same as we used to provide the option for transfers to live together for the same reason-that it facilitates transition to a foreign place). If you’re black but you don’t want to live in the program houses, fine! Live in the multitude of other dorms. If you’re white, but you identify more with the African culture, fine! The program houses are not specific to any single race.</p>

<p>White and Asian-themed program houses don’t exist because there’s no evidence that whites and Asians as a group have trouble adjusting to the college environment. Besides, all of the other dorms are essentially white/asian dorms since there are so few URM’s in college anyway.</p>

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<p>thank you norcalguy, I couldn’t have put it any better.</p>

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<p>i’ll admit part of this thread is a bit selfish…</p>

<p>i am an URM and have struggled here…but is it really because i’m having to catch up or is it because i do not have the work ethic? </p>

<p>it’s just very confusing to be an URM here…while i might not do anywhere near as well as my non-URM peers, is cornell just satisfied in having me graduate? :<</p>

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<p>Graduating alone is a big accomplishment, and you should view it as such. If you are not satisfied with your performance, despite being able to graduate, then maybe you DO need to work on your work ethic.</p>

<p>If you are having problems, then why are you not taking more advantage of the resources offered to struggling URM students?</p>

<p>And if one of those resources is to live with a bunch of kids who have the same background as you and share some of the same culture and experiences, then why not do it if you think it will help?</p>

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<p>Ah, now we get to the real reason behind this post…which is kind of what I suggested earlier :)</p>

<p>what, specifically, is it that’s stopping you from doing well, do you think? how are your poor grades linked to your ethnicity? how are you any different than a White/Asian kid struggling at Cornell? Do you think there’s cultural factors behind your grades, or is it simply that Cornell is hard? And would you consider living in some kind of latino cultural dorm (if one exists)?</p>

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<p>Probably. Cornell’s URM graduation rate is lower than what it would like so I think that would the first thing that Cornell wants to address.</p>

<p>As for you personally, you need to determine the source of your academic troubles. Is it because you’re having trouble adjusting socially? Is it because your HS preparation was weak? Is it because your work ethic is weak? Is it because your courseload is too tough? There are a ton of reasons for poor academic performance. You should speak with an academic dean or an adviser about your troubles to find a solution.</p>

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<p>And why exactly am I a ■■■■■? B/c I give opinions that most people don’t agree with? That most people find politically incorrect? That I try to back up with logical arguments?</p>

<p>Thanks for the thoughtful response.</p>

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<p>I think the statements that precede this would be more appropriate if applied to socio-economic groups. And if different racial groups require different means to ensure success, then Asians should be getting different treatment than whites and East Indians, right? As for the rest of that paragraph, I’m not sure I agree. I say provide equal support for all groups and let the hard-working, intelligent, deserving individuals (w/o regard to race) rise to the top. There’s ample support through TA’s, professor accessibility, small recitations, low level workshops, advisors, peer advisors, etc… for any intelligent person to succeed. </p>

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<p>Thank you for bringing this up. I think stereotypes are, in general, based on AVERAGES. But averages NEVER apply to individuals in a given group. I’m glad you didn’t just write off group average differences altogether. In fact, I think it’s central to your argument. </p>

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<p>Your second example is on the basis of biology. Hepatitis is more prevalent amongst Latinos than, let’s say lower class whites, because of a biological propensity. It’s relevant to the discussion of group average differences, but not the cultural similarities that manifest amongst racial groups. (Now, if you were to argue that whites, Asians, and blacks have a propensity towards certain personality traits, then I’m willing to listen. I doubt you’d support the contention that hair texture, skin color, and facial topography have a strong correlate with average personality traits. However, if you’d go that route, I’d concede the argument. Your claims, while I’m not sure of their veracity, would be logically consistent (i.e. Asian people want to hang w/ other Asians b/c on average they share similar, biologically dependent personality traits). Nonetheless, I don’t think you’re going there, so that was just an interesting aside).</p>

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<p>But here’s my problem. I don’t think blacks, coming from a range of countries, cultures, and socioeconomic levels, are more like each other than other races who share all those characteristics except race (i.e. rich French white is most similar to rich French black). I’d say your argument has much more merit if applied to socioeconomic groups, such as placing lower class persons in a program house. The term Oreo for blacks, Twinkies for Asians, etc… exist because of the phenomenon of noting a minority mimicking the cultural qualities of his peers/economic class. </p>

<p>In fact, I think (as stated previously) that these program houses perpetuate stereotypes, that being black is one certain thing and not simply a group of alike looking individuals. I was privy to this one day walking down main campus. I came upon the most suburban looking black person I’d ever seen, clearly well to due and educated. He is leaving a group of friends and as he’s leaving, he adopts the most obviously fake Ebonics accent and says, “Ima holla at y’all lata.” I laughed because ideas like the program houses and diversity programs have inundated him with the idea that there’s an authentic blackness, that despite growing up in a presumably middle-class, mainstream environment, he feels he’s under obligation to adopt foreign societal constructs. </p>

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<p>OK, but in majors such as electrical engineering, whites are surely a minority. Why aren’t whites in these majors offered extra support?</p>

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<p>Excuse me, but you are truly ignorant.</p>

<p>It has been shown that REGARDLESS of socioeconomic class, that differences based on race affect performance in standardized testing. It has also been shown it affects graduation rates. And it affects job placement. And it affects mental health issues (i.e. stress due to transition to college)</p>

<p>[Education</a> outcomes in the United States by race and other classifications - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“Achievement gaps in the United States - Wikipedia”>Achievement gaps in the United States - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>You cannot say that socioeconomic class is what differentiates student ability, it’s blatantly false and unsubstantiated by the numbers. Quit trying to be PC and accept it. Minorities are provided with more resources to give them the largest safety net to succeed, because a lot of the minorities are first generation, and DO come from poor backgrounds, and haven’t been exposed to the kind of rigor of Cornell.</p>

<p>The pre-freshmen summer program is one of the most successful minority support programs that exists at Cornell. By offering minorities the chance to study here over the summer before freshmen year, they give minorities a greater chance to succeed by already knowing the campus, having a support group of other friends, getting adjusted to the rigor. </p>

<p>The fact that you are in the minority does not make you a minority, so quit trying to make that stupid argument. Just because white people are in the minority in ECE doesn’t mean they have special needs. Just because heterosexuals and men are in the minority in the Gender Studies major doesn’t mean they have special needs.</p>

<p>Now on to your point about how thinking minorities hang out with each other is perpetuating stereotypes. FALSE. You can claim that there are those few rich minorities who are more assimilated into white culture than any other culture, but the large majority of the rest of the minority population DOES come from disadvantaged backgrounds. And despite socioeconomic class, ethnicity ties people together. If I meet a poor cuban and a rich cuban, despite the fact that I am middle-class, I would feel a tie to both of them because of shared cultural backgrounds, shared traditions, shared community experiences. </p>

<p>That “oh so poor kid who actually denigrated himself by speaking in ebonics when he’s obviously so above that,” guess what, was living in part of a culture, possibly one he considers his own culture. Just because he is smart and successful and (as you imply, white) does not mean he cannot be a part of black culture, and cannot speak the way he would like to. It has nothing to do with “authentic blackness,” I doubt this kid was trying to prove his “blackness” to anyone. It has everything to do with participating in your culture. I doubt this kids culture is a “foreign societal construct.” I doubt every black person who wears baby phat or ecko and likes to listen to rap and hip hop feels oh so “obligated to adopt foreign societal constructs.”</p>

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<p>If race is a social construct…then why does Cornell foster it?</p>

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<p>Correct. I don’t know if that’s what Chendrix was saying but that’s what I’m saying. And before anyone gets up in arms, I’ll explain:</p>

<p>First of all, the data is very conclusive. Poor Asians perform as well or better than rich blacks. The question is WHY?</p>

<ol>
<li><p>As I said before, cultural differences are greater than socioeconomic differences. If that were not the case, you’d expect the test scores of a rich black student to be similar to the test scores of a rich Asian students. That’s not what happens in reality. That’s why affirmative action based on socioeconomic status would not increase the kind of diversity that colleges want. </p></li>
<li><p>By cultural differences, I mean there are definitely differences in what each culture values and how parenting is done in each culture. I don’t think anyone can deny that Asians (at least the ones educated enough to immigrate over here) value education highly and push their kids to be good students. I don’t think this is a shocker to anyone and I don’t think it would shock anyone that Asians subsequently have the highest test scores. The problem is that education is not so valued in the Latino and black community. Due to past segregation and racism, many blacks (even the ones that are wealthy today) simply do not have a lot of experience going to college or attaining high level education. So, it’s hard for these families to appreciate the importance of attending college. </p></li>
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<p>Similarly, there are huge differences in the educational backgrounds of Asian immigrants vs. Latino immigrants and you see different priorities and different values in each of those cultures. Because Asia is so far away and because it is so difficult to attain a visa, only the wealthy, educated Asian families can even afford to immigrate here. Not the case, when you examine the demographics of Mexican immigrants. While both groups of immigrants that come here are poor initially, there are very real differences in how they perceive education. So, there are nuances to each culture beyond simply socioeconomic status. It’s not that simple to mitigate some of the educational disparities we’re seeing. One way is through affirmative action. But, if you’re going to practice affirmative action, you need to take responsibility for the students you are admitting because they have special challenges. That’s why blacks get an African-themed dorm. That’s why athletes get their own set of tutors provided by the Athletic Department.</p>

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<p>No, I am saying nothing about anyone needing special housing. It is a great advantage that minorities have resources such as program housing at their disposal.</p>

<p>And no, socioeconomic class does not work as an indicator. Lemme point out some data:</p>

<pre><code> white |black |Hispanic |Asian
v m v m v m v m
</code></pre>

<p>under 10 409 460| 320 315| 330 386| 343 482
over 70 475 533| 407 442| 430 478| 476 595</p>

<p>Black students and Hispanic students, even with an average income of greater than 70k, do worse or marginally better, respectively, on standardized tests than the white student with less than 10k. That is a HUGE discrepancy, and THAT is why socioeconomic status (regardless of ethnicity) is not a good measure of “academic success”</p>

<p>And yes, if non-URM students do feel connected to the culture fostered in a program house, or do feel like they would benefit from the support network that is available there, they are free to join it.</p>

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<p>

Chendrix, you make many good points, but here’s where some people will disagree with you - You’re saying that Black people are worse at College not because of socioeconomic reasons, but simply because they’re Black. And they need special housing because they’re Black, because Black people are naturally worse at academics, even if they’re not poor. That’s basically what you’re saying, and there’s nothing PC about it. I don’t know if that’s true, but I see nothing wrong with program housing like Ujammaa. </p>

<p>As for your 1st gen/poor background argument, if AA was based on socioeconomic class, then it would still be mostly URM’s who would benefit, but poor people of other races would as well (1st gen Indian kid). Regardless, if those non-URM poor kids feel more comfortable in the program housing, then they’re free to join, aren’t they?</p>

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I understand your argument - you’re saying URM’s naturally are worse at academics, even if they’re poor, which explains why poor Asians outperform rich Black kids. But I think why people disagree with this argument is because they say, Ok, maybe Black people naturally suck at academics because of cultural reasons, and Asians excel because of cultural reasons - should Black kids get rewarded for not being as good academically? </p>

<p>Your answer would be yes, because if more URM’s go to College, they’ll be successful and their children will perform better, sort of “pulling up” the race so fewer URM’s will live in poverty. But some frankly disagree and think College should be based on academics, if their culture makes them suck at school, too bad for them.

Nahh I’m south asian and I know tons of poor families who moved here. My own family was dirt-poor from Pakistan, great-grandparents saved up for years, grandparents saved up and finally moved here in the 60’s - Dad went to a crappy NYC public school, was a 1st gen immigrant, and went to Dartmouth. You don’t have to be rich to be smart.</p>

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<p>You’re extremely right, you don’t have to be rich to be smart, but it is true that the Asian culture places a heavy burden on achievement, and values education as the pinnacle of a mature adult.</p>

<p>This is not the case in hispanic (and I am assuming black) culture, especially first generation immigrants. I know plenty of students from high school whose families were illegal immigrants, and couldn’t get over the counter jobs for fear of being deported. And all these families strived for was to get by, and while they might have loved for their kids to attend college and do better for themselves, they themselves had no concept of higher education, and no way to help their child succeed when they are scrubbing dishes for 14 hours a day.</p>

<p>It’s sad, and I know lots of my friends from high school who got caught up in drugs and gang violence because they didn’t have an authority figure who was near by, and no one to provide them with support when they were doing poorly, and no one to provide them encouragement when they were doing well. Discouraged and disadvantaged, they let themselves slip, dropped out of high school, worked at mechanic shops, got jobs as a plumber, etc, and the cycle repeats itself.</p>

<p>Yes, minority students are worse academically than their socioeconomic white and asian peers. Yes, they could be taking spots from an equally if not more qualified white or asian student. But where inequality in terms of oppression, income gaps, and education gaps exist, in order to instill equality, you have to be inequal and give those spots to disadvantaged minority students. </p>

<p>If you are more mathematical: If a white or asian student is at a 8/10 and a black or hispanic student is at a 6/10, if you try to get them both to 10 by giving both of them 2, you are not achieving equality.</p>