Seriously...what is all of this "research" hs kids are conducting?

Parents Forum
221

<p>OK, the abstract for the grant is below. However, it looks like this covers undergrad training as well as high school students. It is not entirely clear whether the training of grad students and postdocs is intended to be limited to mentoring skills, but that is my educated guess. There is no indication at all that grad students and postdocs would have their salary covered by this, and I doubt that it would based on my experience.</p>

<p>Still, the breakdown of expenses would be needed to draw reasonable conclusions.</p>

<p>Polymers at Interfaces: A Vehicle for Integrating Research with Education
NSF:0606387</p>

<p>Amount $1,635,000
Source NSF
Effective Date 2006-06-01
Expiration Date 2013-05-31
Abstract </p>

<h2>The involvement of students of any age in different phases of research can be a stimulating experience for both the scientist and the student. We propose to continue a program where cutting edge research is done in partnership of faculty with students starting from high school through the post doctorate. We believe that this arrangement can be beneficial for all participants. The faculty brings the excitement of original research into the classroom, providing role models and motivation for the students. Post doctoral and graduate students, who are heavily involved in the day to day research activities also learn teaching and mentoring skills through working with the undergraduate and high school students. Becoming involved in all phases of the research, undergraduate and high school students, learn first hand what is expected if they are to chose careers in science and engineering.A central goal of the National Nanotechnology Initiative has recently been identified by an NSF report to be the ability to create “smart” and adaptable materials with atomic level precision and control in economically viable quantities that would “be of broad benefit to industry, economy, health, environment, and society”. The report pointed to “our ability to achieve a better understanding of materials at dissimilar interfaces” as a key vehicle to attaining this goal. Polymers, which can be molecularly engineered on a macroscopic scale, while retaining nanometer scale precision, play a central role in attaining this goal. This proposal therefore has two research directions: Engineering biomimetic polymer scaffolds for tissue engineering and fundamental studies of cell mechanical transduction and the desing of self extinguishing polymer nanocomposites that can withstand extreme conditions. This proposal therefore has two interrelated goals; (a) Produce original and relevant research in biomaterials and nanocomposite polymer engineering ; (b) Allow for versatile training of students from high school, undergraduate, graduate through the post-doctorate to develop necessary skills for achieving professional careers in science and engineering.</h2>

222

<p>" It is not entirely clear whether the training of grad students and postdocs is intended to be limited to mentoring skills, but that is my educated guess." That is not my educated guess. It specifically says “Allow for versatile training of students from high school, undergraduate, graduate through the post-doctorate to develop necessary skills for achieving professional careers in science”. Also, while students may be paid separately from separate pools of money according to time spent on research vs. being a formal teaching assistant (ie, conducting discussion sections, grading exams), the time spent in research is not generally subdivided. </p>

223

<p>

</p>

<p>This sounds like grantspeak language for “We are training high school and undergrads, but let’s use some mental gymnastics to make it sound like grad students and postdocs are also getting trained.” </p>

224

<p>D attended a program at a local university last summer for a couple of weeks where the faculty member got a grant to train some students and also high school teachers for a couple of weeks in how research in that particular field works and how to test samples of earth, water etc for contaminants. Many other such types of grants given where the outcomes are nothing more than enlightenment of students. There are many colleges with programs for disadvantaged students to get them interested in engineering, research, you name it. </p>

<p>Personally I think getting into RSI, Telluride, SIMR just improves one’s chance of an admission astronomically and Intel prizes have very little input based on the EA/ED outcomes of many of the applicants who have been through such programs.</p>

225

<p>

</p>

<p>I know, but this is a far cry from allocating funds to pay the salaries of postdocs and grad students. I actually participated in one of these training programs; the program didn’t pay any of my salary. The farthest it went was to pay a few hundred dollars for reagents and pay a stipend for the student. </p>

<p>The only case where a postdoc or grad student might get payment is if they are developing teaching tools and that is a major focus of their research.</p>

226

<p>I don’t think this was that trivial (just paying for reagents) since it was a long term NSF funded grant to recruit women and disadvantaged groups in STEM. Although SBU might be lauded or derided for their longstanding program, there are many unknown schools out there receiving money which they are not just using it as a stepping stone to churning out bragging right worthy future researchers.</p>

227

<p>

</p>

<p>No, you have been very clear that your accusation is that some students are fraudulently filling out their applications (your "shenanigams and misrepresentation accusation). And since the research advisors also have to fill out what the student did and their specific contributions, that would mean there is fraud there too since you claim that they are in on it. Same for the recommenders. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Looks like you don’t know that the same application that gets you to be a Semifinalist is what is used to determine if you are a finalist and that what you wrote in your application is used in their interviews with you during the finalist stage. </p>

<p>So given all the fraud at the semifinalist level, how do those students not get found out at the finalist level and disqualified? How do all those advisors not get blackballed when this fraud is found out?</p>

228

<p>

</p>

<p>Actually it sound like just the opposite given the first goal (original research of polymers). You are more likely to get original research from postdocs and grads…but lets be more inclusive and throw in high school and undergrads.</p>

<p>When it comes to grant renewal time, they will probably be evaluated more on the original research than how many high schoolers won $1k at Intel.</p>

<p>“Sorry, not much research, but look at these high schoolers who made Intel Semis.”</p>

229

<p>@collegealum "“We are training high school and undergrads, but let’s use some mental gymnastics to make it sound like grad students and postdocs are also getting trained.” I don’t think you understand. By definition, if you are a grad student, you are “getting trained”. By definition, if you are a postdoc, you are “getting trained”. What you actually do is irrelevant. If you were not one of those things, you would be called something like “research assistant” or “research fellow”, or “research professor” or “research technician”. If you are a grad student, they can pay you less money than someone with a BS who is not a student because you are “getting trained”. If you are a postdoc, with a PhD, they can still pay you less money than someone with a BS, because you are “getting trained”. Do you understand now why the definition of “getting trained” is so liberal? </p>

230

<p>^I understand all that. But from the context of the abstract of the grant, it sounds like they were saying that the “training” of the grad students and postdocs was in the mentorship and leadership skills that they gained from teaching undergrads and grad students. See this explicit statement of what the posdocs and grad students get out of it: “Post doctoral and graduate students, who are heavily involved in the day to day research activities also learn teaching and mentoring skills through working with the undergraduate and high school students.”<br>
Here they say what the undergrads and high school students get out of it: “Becoming involved in all phases of the research, undergraduate and high school students, learn first hand what is expected if they are to chose careers in science and engineering.”</p>

<p>There are “training grants” for postdocs and grad students where “training” means transitioning to become an independent investigator (aka professor.) </p>

<p>However, that’s not what it sounds like here. But the abstract is too vague to tease out exactly what it entails. </p>

231

<p>Honestly, I don’t think it would hurt postdocs to spend a little more time learning how to teach and mentor and not just how to do research. My husband was thrown into teaching with virtually no experience, helping teach a course he had never taken.</p>

232

<p>I think you’d also need to find the context in which that grant app was originated, something about the finding source’s call for proposals. It just seems with the growing emphasis on stem training and prep, it’s logical to insert something about training and mentoring into the funding request. </p>

233

<p>

We may also add:</p>

<p>If you are a resident, with an MD, after having paid more than 6 figures of tuitions & fees (COA per year could be almost 80k at a private one) and completed 4 years of intense schooling, they can still pay you much less money than someone who has completed the residency program, because you are “getting trained”.</p>

234

<p>Here is my D’s story. She started science fair at the urging of her honors biology teacher. We were discussing possible projects when she asked me why I spoke more loudly when I had my hands on the steering wheel than when we were just sitting in the car ? I told her I didn’t know and she decided she would explore the question of whether body language and position affects speaking volume. Fast forward 4 months over 100 subjects a few redesigns of procedures, hundreds of dollars in prize money, superior ratings at local, district, and state science fairs and an outstanding achievement award from the American Psychological Association. and she was hooked. There was one judge, an industrial psychologist, who actually DANCED after reviewing her project. She never will forget how wonderful it felt when an accomplished professional acknowledged her good work.</p>

<p>Once she realized that even as a kid she could find real answers using the scientific method she took off. Exploring gynodyocious plants over the summer as a volunteer in a college lab at 14 (grunt work… cleaning containers logging in samples) by the end of the summer doing field surveys.</p>

<p>Realizing that she enjoyed psych more than botany, she carefully sorted through the research interests of the profs at her dual enrollment university. Narrowed it down to two and read their research. She was intruiged with the educational promise of meta-cognition, interviewed for a research assistant position, was accepted, trained, passed her CITI human subject research certification and ran subjects for a semester. In the current semester she worked with her post doc on improving procedures, ran subjects, and will assist in data processing. Next year she is expected to present research papers to the lab along with her plan to move that research forward through additional or more detailed study. In spring of 15 she will conduct her first self directed research, still under the watchful eyes of her professor and post doc. She will fill out the IRB app and write the proposal.</p>

<p>In the end most undergrad or “high school” research you are talking about in your question serves an important purpose. By encouraging and validating curiosity and scientific inquiry students learn analytical skills.</p>

<p>We had no connections to any of the labs D has been involved in. And she became involved mostly because she wanted to find answers to questions where none existed previously. She also was hoping her scholarship could make a difference.</p>

<p>Logistically it was a nightmare ! Family had to come together to work out transportation. Thank goodness her lab hours were somewhat flexible and now she can drive herself.</p>

<p>The word “continuum” is a great description of the world of high school research. From the simplest cleaning and secretarial chores, through the process of gathering credible data, moving to reviewing and presenting scholarly papers, and finally being involved in experimental design and analysis, I’m sure the skills learned and scientific value of the work done by hs students varies widely. No doubt these opportunities can provide invaluable experiential learning.</p>