<p>This “guy” lookingforward is one of the leading experts on this issue in the world. </p>
<p>Look at the way he did this and the facts. He is telling us something we should know intuitively. Rape isn’t accidental. Most men do not rape women. Most men do not want to force sex on a woman. </p>
<p>We know this. </p>
<p>This is why most men, who can’t even imagine doing this, think well what if she just regrets it. This is their worst case scenario. The reality is unfathomable to the healthy guy. He just doesn’t do these things and can’t imagine the kind of predator who does. </p>
<p>All that said, your statement of telling your daughter not to worry is kind of less than I’d expect from you. </p>
<p>“Most men do not rape women. Most men do not want to force sex on a woman.”</p>
<p>Amen. That’s the good news. But the news that goes with it is that the usual rape prevention education directed at men doesn’t work, because most of them wouldn’t rape to begin with. Colleges attract a small class of sexual predators (many of whom were so before they set foot on campus), where they are provided with a host of available victims, opportunity, and tools of the trade. And the only way to get rid of them is to report their crimes to the police, and actively push for their prosecution.</p>
<p>It’s a small number - under 6% of all college men (maybe even lower). But parents have a hard time admitted that their sons may be among them. So it is must be “she wanted it”, “she invited it”, “it really was a mistake”, “she lured him in to do it”, “it’s all about kids drinking too much”, “how do we know she didn’t consent?”, “HE is the victim”, “boys will be boys”, “things just went a little too far”, “most of these are false reports”, etc., etc., etc.</p>
<p>Criminal sex predators plan their crimes. I knew one in college. He had a game plan. He knew what he needed to do, and executed his plan to a tee. He didn’t even hide it. The men who knew him, including me, had no idea what to do about it, or even if** we should do anything about it. Today, he is a very high-ranking member of the …</p>
<p>Poetgrl, I don’t know if there is value in arguing this. I feel (perhaps wrongly) that some are limiting this to “serial predators.” I am allowing that the problem goes beyond the serial predator. </p>
<p>I don’t yet know enough about Lisak, but the study linked describes a table set up on a walkway at a commuter U, a questionnaire and a few dollars for taking it, 120 guys who admitted, a proportion of whom were serial. Does that tell us enough about college sexual assault, across the board? </p>
<p>I agree- of course- that these guys exist. I find it hard to take one narrow position. I think it also risks our daughters (focusing on them) assuming that, if they haven’t heard bad about this guy, if he seems just fine, if their friends never had an issue with him, neither will they. That limits, imo, their vigilance, so to say. Could create a false sense of security. I would not tell them: don’t worry, it’s just a few rotten apples. </p>
<p>This seems to parallel (a bit) what we know about drunk drivers- that a % repeatedly drives drunk, that some % of accidents are caused by these repeat offenders. We and our kids see the messages not to drive drunk. We know more and more adults and younger kids who do have a designated driver plan. Does that mean we only have to worry about the repeat types?</p>
<p>This is BS. Dartmouth did not in fact “crack down” on the protesters, even though one of them physically assaulted and knocked down a student to get into the show. The administration met with them, sympathetically, even though the way they chose to stage their protest was in pretty clear violation of the honor code. The administration shut down classes for a day to hold forums on the issues.</p>
<p>Some of the same group were later thrown out of a sexual assault conference run by the various groups filing Title IX complaints because they made the women at that event feel afraid. Or so the leaders claimed.</p>
<p>Since they don’t publicize their decisions, who knows? It is clear that they punish those who are found guilty by the COS. We all know that that is likely a small number of the assaulters. </p>
<p>Here are two cases that are known because the complainant went to the police:</p>
<p>This guy is not on campus. Does that mean he was suspended, pending legal outcome? I don’t know. The College is not going to make a public statement for obvious reasons. I think it obvious that they would not allow him to return, should he attempt to do so. They may have suspended him as soon as they heard about the charges. We don’t know.</p>
<p>In this case, the charges were later dropped by the prosecutor. The boy in question (and his HS GF, who flew back from the west coast to testify as a character witness) is known to friends of mine, who swear that this was consensual sex but that when the girl’s mother found out about it later she insisted on her D filing rape charges. (The girl was a HS student, and Shedd is the son of the principal of the HS, and according to what I was told an inoffensive band-geek type of kid.) The charges were later dropped. The young man left D when the charges were filed and never returned. I have no idea whether he was suspended or expelled, because the College does not publicize such decisions.</p>
<p>Oh, and BTW, another student associated with RealTalk, the protest group, subsequently entered a fraternity house, and stole an expensive watch and wallet from a sleeping visiting alum, and according to the report, made unwanted sexual contact. That case went to the police, also. Again, the College did not publicly comment on what they may or may not have decided to do. I think it likely that he did not receive his diploma, though. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>That is exactly what happened during one of my son’s high school years. The police investigated thoroughly for about 3 months including questioning my son and many of his friends. Charges were dropped and that episode strengthened my belief that the police and prosecutors are the folks you’d want investigating these things. It puts everyone under a magnifying mirror, but in the end there is that concept of presumption of innocence that we as a country have. I’m troubled by the concept of punishment prior to a guilt sentence in consolation’s example but perhaps they left of their own volition. It could change your opinion of an institution that presumes guilt.</p>
<p>I have some confusion about policing on college campuses and am hoping CCers can provide some clarity. Comments on this thread and others stress the importance of reporting sexual assaults to “real” (town) police–not to campus security.</p>
<p>My assumption is that most campus security agencies are not real police departments. That is, they can’t make arrests. They can only write up violations and the consequences of those violations exist only within the college’s private systems.</p>
<p>But what about campuses that have “real” police departments–ie departments who can make arrests and deliver consequences in the same system that the rest of society is subjected to? Do these campus PDs have a better track record of dealing with sexual assaults than the private security departments? Or are they also suspected of being too concerned with maintaining an image for the colleges they serve?</p>
<p>This topic came up last weekend in conversation with my daughter who goes to college at UW-Madison. She has a campus job that interfaces with the UW Madison Police Department. This is a separate agency from the City of Madison’s PD. This agency’s webpage shows they are a fully accredited law enforcement agency with jurisdiction throughout the county the campus is in. As part of her job orientation this fall, she was told ALL campus employees are “mandated reporters” and must report sexual assault incidents they hear about to the UW Madison Police.</p>
<p>I am assuming that other large campuses have similar “real” PDs. Is this correct? And, if one can generalize, do they treat sexual assault cases appropriately?</p>
<p>(To be clear, I know of no issues with the UW-Madison PD. I’m just using it as an example for discussion.)</p>
<p>My alma mater, University of South Florida, has its own independent full-blown accredited police dept. that does investigations, makes arrests, and carries guns. USF’s campus is like a small city with 40,000+ students and thousands of employees. USF’s police dept. handles sexual assault cases on the campus, and reports sexual assault incidents to the state attorney’s office. </p>
<p>If the campus police dept. needs additional outside help with anything, they fully cooperate with other local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies.</p>
<p>For example, I don’t know and I don’t care about the sexual assault policy in my workplace. If rape happens, call police, not the HR officer. On the other hand, workplace policy is important for the cases of sexual harassment. However, sexual harassment and rape are different animals.</p>
<p>Why college administration is involved in rape prosecution, in the first place? Let’s leave serous crime to police and courts.</p>
<p>Here in California, the state university systems (UC and CSU) have police, with each campus having a branch.</p>
<p>Among private schools, Stanford has a branch of the county sheriff dedicated to its campus (which is mostly in an unincorporated area of the county). USC has a “Department of Public Safety” which seems to go out of its way to avoid using the word “police” on its web site, except in reference to the Los Angeles Police Department. The Claremont Colleges have a “Campus Safety” department that does not appear to be police.</p>
<p>My concern with any campus police department, whether it’s a fully accredited police department or a less official “campus safety” department, is the potential for a conflict of interest.</p>
<p>The victims of crimes have an interest in seeing those crimes investigated and prosecuted. The university where the crimes took place has an interest in keeping the number of “reported crimes” as low as possible. And, let’s be honest, the more violent the crime, the greater the university’s interest in keeping it from being publicized.</p>
<p>So, are things better when a campus has a “real” police department? I just don’t know. As long as the “real” police department works for the college, that conflict of interest is still going to be there.</p>
<p>The Stanford model sounds pretty close to ideal - you have sheriff’s deputies who answer to the county, not to the college. Sounds like a good way to do things.</p>
<p>I live on the border of two different counties, and occasionally a cell 911 call will go to the wrong operator. They usually catch it and immediately transfer the call. But with any 911 call made, you can also ask to be transferred to a different 911 call center or request to be put in contact with other law enforcement agencies other then just campus police.</p>
<p>Also, to whomever said it is always rape if a girl is drunk because she can’t consent, even if the male is drunk, this is not always the case or the law. One of my friends went to the police, still drunk, reported rape and had a rape kit done. The next day the officer speaking with her said “I really wish the college campuses around here would stop telling students being drunk will lead to a rape conviction. It’s not true and it’s not the law. There are so many other things that come in to play”. The Police dept worked tirelessly for my friend, but charges were never brought by the DA. </p>
<p>For one thing, with both parties being drunk, neither remembered the entire incident, and although there was some physical evidence, the DA said it would not stand up in court. This in NY state.</p>
<p>And then #3 but we recognize that like the vast majority of college students you are going to get drunk so here’s what the university does to help you.</p>