Sexual Assault on Campus: What’s the Policy at YOUR Alma Mater?

Parents Forum
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<p>The college procedures refer to the college as a community. They can determine what the response is, within that environment. I don’t think I’d want them to hold off for a legal determination. I could be wrong, but thought the rape convictions (once the victim does report and pursue,) was under 10%. (I was finding info dated 2013, but with references up to 15 years old- so maybe someone else has better info.)</p>

<p>That would mean the accused stayed in place, if he were out on bail, eg. Where T9 comes in is to say, the college needs to do x and y. T9 does give some rights to the accused. </p>

<p>I do agree we need to see a culture shift-- we’re talking responses; I’d like to see the problem of non-consensual sex (by whatever name) reduced, in the first place. </p>

<p>D1 said her friends did not consider the unwanted sex to be rape. They considered it to be unwanted sex. More I could say, don’t know if we’re going there.</p>

<p>poertgrl, on another thread? Maybe I can find that. x-posted with you.</p>

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<p>“Unwanted sex” what the heck is that…if it’s regret sex it’s not a crime so I guess your D and her friends might have that right but if it’s truly “unwanted” sex, that is a crime and something most men understand. No means no is drilled into both boys and girls’ heads, believe me. If they don’t get that then they could potentially be sexual predators. Where I don’t think college administrators have ANY business figuring out is a one night drunken yes, yes, yes that turns into something ugly in the morning. That’s for the legal system to figure out of it’s predatory behavior, harrassment, criminal. That’s for counseling and lawyers to help the young woman figure out. Not for college administrators to adjudicate. But on the other hand I like to believe that women that are intelligent enough to get themselves into college are intelligent enough to figure out the difference most of the time and we as a society to help them understand when to call the police if they believe they were not consensual. I think I could have figured that out when I was in college.</p>

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<p>lookingforward: It doesn’t help the discourse to wrongly cast aspersions on colleges that are making a difference, simply because you don’t like what they’re doing. And you can twist my arguments all you want. I’ll remain an eternal optimist that hopes for a better world.</p>

<p>But for the record, I didn’t imply that Yale is “a fine environment for daughters.” I implied (although I thought I was rather direct) that it hurts the discourse to wrongly suggest that they cover things up (which they don’t) and that they’re more dangerous than anywhere else (which they aren’t). Both of those were slyly suggested by the OP (and by mini before). But you knew that. </p>

<p>Do you really agree with the OP that Yale is covering things up (or more so than anywhere else)? Do you really agree with the OP that Yale is more dangerous than anywhere else?</p>

<p>And if anyone is looking for the stats I referenced (particularly the 3,100% increase), take a look [Daily</a> Crime Log | Occidental College | The Liberal Arts College in Los Angeles](<a href=“http://www.oxy.edu/campus-safety/crime-reporting-clery-act/daily-crime-log]Daily”>http://www.oxy.edu/campus-safety/crime-reporting-clery-act/daily-crime-log). Simply look up complaints 36-42, 44-50, 52-60, 64, 70, 72, 75-77, 83-85, 92-97, 101-108, 113-114, 118-119, and 123, and compare those to Oxy’s prior year Clery reports for 2009, 2010, and 2011 found at [Crime/Fire</a> Stats | Occidental College | The Liberal Arts College in Los Angeles](<a href=“http://www.oxy.edu/campus-safety/crime-reporting-clery-act/crimefire-stats]Crime/Fire”>http://www.oxy.edu/campus-safety/crime-reporting-clery-act/crimefire-stats).</p>

<p>Btw – I’m curious how many here would think it’s simply a civil matter if 1 in 4 boys would end up deceased during their college years. Would you simply dismiss the issue and say the school doesn’t have a “death” culture? Would you still send your boys to college at 1 in 10? How about 1 in 25? Would 1 in 50 be ok? I wouldn’t send my son to college with any of those numbers. Why is it acceptable for rape?</p>

<p>And as for why I’m still sticking around? I’m still acquiring an education from anyone and everyone (mostly people who are far, far, far more knowledgeable than me), and frankly I need a break from the rants over at Jezebel. Just not a whole lot to learn here. Mostly spin.</p>

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<p>if everyone in college that had sex while they were drunk got arrested, how many college students would be left?</p>

<p>… that is the danger here, but it is the law, so people should be aware.</p>

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<p>mini <em>IS</em> a gadfly. :slight_smile: I’ve always had the impression that he prides himself on it.</p>

<p>katara, the subject of sexual assault, on college campuses and elsewhere, has been discussed virtually to death on CC. I think that people are very concerned about it and very aware, and no one takes it lightly. At least not on the Parent Forum.</p>

<p>I think that people may be a bit worn out by the discussion, frankly.</p>

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<p>Cons: I realize that and I’m confident this thread died a quick and noble death. I’m still looking for answers though, and even these threads help.</p>

<p>soccerguy313: I don’t think that’s really the law. It gets tossed around like it is, but Yale recently provided some guidance on the issue. The majority of laws in the 50 states assign liability to the victim if they voluntarily becomes intoxicated. For those states the perpetrator is generally guilty only if they are the “agent” of the intoxication. Even with the states in the minority, there is typically a “knowledge” qualifier, such that perpetrators are responsible for rape only if they knew or reasonably should have know that the victim was intoxicated. The college approach lacks the considered approach given by our criminal legal system. Colleges are all over the board. Some still use the “against the will” standard, while others employ the “lack of consent” standard. And those that use the “lack of consent” standard don’t often include the exculpatory “agency” or “knowledge” qualifiers. So the colleges are generally a mess and there is no true guidance out there. </p>

<p>Does anyone know where to find a 50 state survey on criminal rape and consent. I know it’s too much to ask, but has there ever been a survey done on the LACs and the University standards and whether they also consider “agency” and “knowledge”? Do more colleges follow the majority “agency” standard or the minority standard, and with respect to the minority standard, do they include the “knowledge” qualifier?</p>

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<p>Worn out, yes. and not interested in being judged.</p>

<p>Katera, I didn’t twist your arguments. From the start, I was uncertain what your position was, due to what seemed like conflicting statements. And the stats I sought were related to mini’s posts. </p>

<p>Mom3- though there are so many good guys, I’m not sure all take a no as a final answer. To some, no is still a chance to try for yes. That happened when we were in college, too- and when my mother was. That’s what D1 was referring to. At this point, I think I’d have to explain my thoughts more than this thread would bear.</p>

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<p>Frankly, the impression I have at this point is that if two equally drunk kids fall into bed and have sex that appears to both to be consensual at the time, that the next morning the male is presumed to have been able to give consent and the female is presumed to NOT have been able to give consent. So she can legitimately claim to have been raped if she wishes to do so. </p>

<p>There are several things about this:</p>

<p>A) The possibility that this kind of scenario would result in unfair punishment of innocent young men terrifies parents, and it is exacerbated by the “preponderance of the evidence” rule and other things in the famous Title IX letter;
B) It is pretty clear that although this MIGHT happen, it is HIGHLY unlikely (small consolation if you are the unlucky guy, of course);
C) Notwithstanding the above, the vast majority of rapes on campus seem to be perpetrated by deliberate, purposeful serial rapists, and stopping THEM is where efforts must be focused. I would not be in the least surprised to find that a large number of these guys don’t think of themselves as “rapists,” because they don’t leap out of the bushes and rape at knife point. Nevertheless, that is what they are. The only thing that will reveal and stop them is REPORTING TO THE POLICE. Focusing on the “2 drunk kids” scenario and its attendant fears does not help stop the actual rapists.</p>

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<p>Oh, we managed to stay away from preponderance, the elephant in the room. But, because colleges are to judge and determine college-related punishment, the question is, how many mete out the most severe penalties with the flimsiest evidence? I don’t think we on CC can figure that out. </p>

<p>It is this comment about “serial rapists” that I am struggling with. That was mini’s comment I need some detail on. It implies a very high level of criminal activity- don’t get mad at me, but I wonder if even labeling them serial makes it sound so heinous that it falsely reassures us. Frankly, I thought all this includes the lunks who don’t end up committing serial crimes, but nonetheless take advantage or press on–</p>

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<p>Cons: I almost agree, but I question (C). Is there any better research on any of this? I’ve read studies that suggest the majority of rapes occur at the dorms; the majority of rapes occur in the context of alcohol; freshmen females are most targeted; 90% are acquaintance rape; 75% of students hookup, with an average of 4 partners over their college career; and hookups also occur more frequently in the context of alcohol. </p>

<p>Suggests that the figures borrowed from the criminal side – that it’s serial rapists – doesn’t apply to the college setting. If that’s the case I question whether we’re looking at the right problem. I also wonder how much of this is females being targeted by acquaintances and intoxication is merely the facilitation vehicle. That’s an even bigger social problem. It’s also been suggested that the frat parties may be the single largest facilitator, even if they aren’t where the rapes occur? I can’t find any decent studies on any of this yet.</p>

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<p>chew on this one- [Rape</a> on College Campuses - Sexual Assault Violence Prevention (SAVP) - Vassar College](<a href=“Support, Advocacy, & Violence Prevention – Vassar College”>Support, Advocacy, & Violence Prevention – Vassar College)</p>

<p>The info Vassar produces, btw, includes NY state law re: rape.</p>

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<p>compiled stats from other places. suggests there’s a complete disconnect between the way men and women view the issue. and that it’s of epidemic proportions. not sure what else to draw from it though. great information, but what’s the takeaway? how do we end the problem?</p>

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<p>Some of those statistics from the Vassar site are just awful. If you need cheering up a bit after looking at them, try this page instead:</p>

<p>[What</a> is Consent? - Sexual Assault Violence Prevention (SAVP) - Vassar College](<a href=“Support, Advocacy, & Violence Prevention – Vassar College”>Support, Advocacy, & Violence Prevention – Vassar College)</p>

<p>I particularly liked “The Perks of Consent”.</p>

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<p>Katara I don’t think it will get solved until alcohol is out of the equation. I don’t know about other parents but even in the free wheeling 70s when I was in college it was “uncool” for women to get stinkin’ drunk. We used to informally grant the Lord Award to the drunkest guy and the Dumbest Drunk award to the drunkest female and we were “legally” of age to drink which we did certainly did. If you were “with” a guy they might hold your head if you were sick, but they were disgusted and quick to turn you over to your roommate and vice-versa if it was the guy who was sick drunk. No one relished either moniker. From what I can tell that isn’t quite true with this generation of young people and it’s much more common for women to pre-game, drink large amount of alcohol and get stinkin’ drunk. If you aren’t stinkin’ drunk, you’re less likely to want to hang out or onto a stinkin’ drunk guy in my opinion. I can only speak from a woman’s perspective because I am a woman. Can’t guess what today’s young guys think about stinkin’ drunk women. If there is any epidemic it is drinking too much by young men and young women…which leads to other issues like criminally-viable sexual behavior and regret sex or whatever you want to call it. The kids need better peer role models than some of the train wrecks on the entertainment news these days.</p>

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<p>I’m really confused about Vassar. Do they follow the “express or implied” consent model, or the “verbalized consent” model? The following excerpt suggests they follow the “verbalized consent” model:</p>

<p>"CONSENT IS…
A voluntary, sober, imaginative, enthusiastic, creative, wanted, informed, mutual, honest, [and verbal agreement] . . . "</p>

<p>What follows later seems to contradict it and suggests it can be expressed by action. What’s the import here? I thought there were only a few schools that followed the “verbalized consent” model, such as Antioch, Calvin, Hope and Kenyon. Are there others?</p>

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<p><a href=“http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/06/14/2159721/college-serial-rapists/[/url]”>http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/06/14/2159721/college-serial-rapists/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>When activists at Dartmouth University disrupted an event for prospective students in April, they said they wanted to pressure their university to take racism, sexism, and sexual assault more seriously — and they wanted their administrators to start punishing serial rapists. After the university administration cracked down on the protesters, one of the participants told ThinkProgress, “The fact is that Dartmouth is punishing protesters who are very visible, but won’t punish students who commit assaults.”</p>

<p>Although the campus protesters received some serious backlash from some of their peers — including rape and death threats — for pointing out some of the shortcomings in their university’s sexual assault policy, their statements weren’t hyperbolic. Some of the participants in the protest were survivors of sexual assault, and some of their assailants haven’t faced adequate punishment. According to sexual assault prevention experts, those rapists are very likely to go on to commit crimes against other students on campus.</p>

<p>The U.S. Department of Justice has found that about one in four women experience sexual assault during their time in college. And, according to David Lisak — a former clinical psychologist who now consults the U.S. military and college administrations on issues of sexual assault — those sexual crimes are perpetrated by a relatively small number of men. Lisak says that most college rapists are repeat offenders.</p>

<p>“College presidents don’t like to hear this, but these are sex offenders,” Lisak explained during a recent rape prevention event at Harvard University. “Every report should be viewed and treated as an opportunity to identify a serial rapist.”</p>

<p>That claim is backed up by Lisak’s research. When Lisak surveyed 1,882 college men about their nonconsensual sexual experiences, 120 participants said that they had either sexually assaulted or attempted to sexually assault a fellow student. Those men admitted to 483 assaults in total — which averages out to be about four assaults each.</p>

<p>But colleges across the country still aren’t doing a good job of identifying and punishing those serial rapists."</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.wcsap.org/sites/www.wcsap.org/files/uploads/webinars/SV%20on%20Campus/Repeat%20Rape.pdf[/url]”>http://www.wcsap.org/sites/www.wcsap.org/files/uploads/webinars/SV%20on%20Campus/Repeat%20Rape.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>sorry, i meant the “expression by words or action” model or the “verbalized” model. I don’t think there’s an implied model.</p>

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<p>I think this thread is losing control. I can’t help myself from looking behind headlines. The guy interviewed 1882 and found 120 perps, based on a questionnaire. Should I tell my girls, don’t worry, it’s “a small number of men…[who are] repeat offenders?” </p>

<p>This raises so many questions, I have to resist. He notes, “since the data are self-report, there is no independent corroboration of the acts reported by the participants.”</p>

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<p>[TheDartmouth.com:</a> Assault victims face tough judicial process](<a href=“http://thedartmouth.com/2013/05/03/news/assault]TheDartmouth.com:”>http://thedartmouth.com/2013/05/03/news/assault)</p>

<p>"Stuart Allan ’14 dated a survivor during the immediate aftermath of her assault and was with her when she considered reporting her case. Because of the trauma she had undergone and her fragile mental state, the College advised her not to go through the adjudication process. Allan said her perpetrator was a serial rapist, however, and that the College should have encouraged victims to adjudicate their cases to prevent further offenses.</p>

<p>“It’s no longer about them, it’s about saving the next girl or next girls, because the people who do this are usually serial,” he said. “The administration knew about it, but they didn’t push the girls to go forward with it. The fact that it seems like the guy was known to them but was able to continue doing things, that just seems like a bad outcome to me.”"</p>

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<p>[The</a> serial rapist is not who you think | Special Reports | News from Fort Worth, Dallas,…](<a href=“http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/08/19/4191666/the-serial-rapist-is-not-who-you.html]The”>http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/08/19/4191666/the-serial-rapist-is-not-who-you.html)</p>

<p>"What shocked Lisak is what he learned from those men through follow-up questionnaires and interviews. The data showed that repeat rapists had not stopped with two. Each had committed an average of six sexual assaults. Seventy percent of their victims had been incapacitated by drugs or alcohol. Thirty percent of the time, their rapes had been committed with force or the threat of force.</p>

<p>“It was just the sheer number of violent crimes committed by a very small number of serial rapists,” Lisak said of his surprise. “And rapes and attempted rapes were just the beginning. There was domestic battery, child abuse. What I was having trouble with initially was that the men I was studying were college students. One doesn’t think of college students as criminals.”</p>

<p>Lisak’s findings were published in 2002.</p>

<p>Startling results: Read David Lisak’s study on repeat rapes</p>

<p>“How is it that they are escaping the criminal justice system?” he wrote then. “By attacking victims within their social networks - so-called acquaintances - and by refraining from the kind of violence likely to produce injuries, these rapists create ‘cases’ that victims are least likely to report.”</p>

<p>His findings were replicated seven years later in a study done by the Navy. In that research, 2,900 male recruits were surveyed.</p>

<p>“That [Navy] study really confirmed for myself and a lot of other people what we had found,” Lisak said. “It gives you a lot more assurance that your initial study was not some anomaly. We have two studies of men who commit rape and are not going to prison. A lot of people out there still refer to these guys as date rapists. It’s a term I just loathe. It masks the reality and puts a kind of ‘rape lite’ label on it.”</p>

<p>Lisak’s term for them is “undetected rapists.” They are criminals who are often too aware that, in the unlikely event that a victim reports her assault, it will be his word against hers.</p>

<p>“We hear that when we interview them,” Johnson said of acquaintance rape suspects questioned by Fort Worth police. “‘It’s my word against hers. There’s nothing you can do.’ I think that they know that as long as they draw it down to the line of consent, not whether sex happened, it’s much harder for a case to be proven against them.”</p>

<p>In that scenario, ironically, perpetrators often can come off as more believable, even more sympathetic than the victims.</p>

<p>“Victims often blame themselves, second-guess themselves about what they did or didn’t do,” Strand said. "They feel bad about what happened, while the suspect doesn’t feel bad about it, other than being challenged or caught. The victim hasn’t made sense of what has happened. There are fragmented memories or trauma issues. The suspect knows what happened and often makes more sense.</p>

<p>“We are trying to train law enforcement not to be fooled into thinking that credibility boils down to likeability,” Strand said. “It’s a trap we can fall into.”</p>