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<p>They do.</p>
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<p>The sororities, yes, (for housing parity). </p>
<p>I believe that The College also made some renovations to the Beta house when they were “permanently” banned, but that was so a sorority could move onto Webster Street. Nevertheless, the house was still legally owned by the Beta folks/alums, and the females were just tenants. Of course, as you may have noted, the life-time ban was lifted, and the sorority kicked out so the Frat could be reinstated.</p>
<p>Here is an excerpt from the account of the Clery press conference in The Dartmouth. It seems that some of the Real Talk folks met with a chilly reception. Told to shut up because their behavior was perceived as threatening? Responding that too bad, everyone was triggered by something? Racial insults flying back and forth? How ironic. Hoist by their own petard, I’d say.</p>
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<p>Consolation:</p>
<p>Yes, the problem is the protestors, not the campus climate of hostility, intolerance and misogyny that probably 80% of the campus acknowledges is a serious problem.</p>
<p>A comment on this article on the federal complaint against Dartmouth in the Chronicle of Higher Education:</p>
<p>‘Whether or not we want to face up to this problem, it can not be ignored, diluted or set aside to harmlessly “burn-out”. It’s no longer the elephant in the room, it’s a herd of elephants in the room. From the military, to our colleges and universities, in the workplace and probably even in our secondary schools -it is clear that responses designed to abate the problem are not working.’</p>
<p>[4</a> More Colleges Are Targets of Students’ Complaints Over Sexual Assault - Students - The Chronicle of Higher Education](<a href=“4 More Colleges Are Targets of Students’ Complaints Over Sexual Assault”>4 More Colleges Are Targets of Students’ Complaints Over Sexual Assault)</p>
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<p>I didn’t say that and I don’t think that. As you well know, if you have read my posts in this thread. I just finished saying that I thought the Title IX suits were a good thing.</p>
<p>I can’t give you many points for intellectual honesty, but at selective quoting and misrepresentation your skills are impressive.</p>
<p>Sally, I do not have my head in the sand. That is one of the reasons I think D would be better off without frats and sororities, as I have repeatedly stated. I refuse to join you in picking up the torch and pitchfork, however.</p>
<p>For decades Dartmouth’s “Greek system” has been inimical to women and minority students, and academic life, as well as to kids who don’t want drinking to be the center of their college years, yet the College’s administration and trustees have done virtually nothing about it:</p>
<p>“For more than 20 years covering more than three Dartmouth presidencies, fraternities and sororities have been targets of criticism from faculty and administrators who have seen them as bastions of anti-intellectualism, sexism and racism.”</p>
<p>‘Wright said the College should not be an environment that is “hostile or demeaning to women or other members of the community,” and said the Greek system in particular encourages “an environment or a mood or an attitude that is demeaning to women.”’</p>
<p>‘“The Board has probably talked about [making a major change to the Greek system] off and on for 20 years,” Wright said, who added that the discussions which culminated in the Trustees’ initiative took place throughout the 10-year presidency of James O. Freedman, as well as during the tenure of Dartmouth’s 14th president, David T. McLaughlin.'</p>
<p>‘The image of Dartmouth as an institution that focuses on partying as much as learning is an unfortunate one.’</p>
<p>‘“Fraternities encourage conduct that is not appropriate,” Wright said.’</p>
<p>‘In November of 1978, during the presidency of the College’s 13th president, John G. Kemeny, the faculty of Arts and Sciences voted 67-16 in favor of a proposal to abolish fraternities and sororities at the College.’</p>
<p>‘Professor of Government Roger Masters said after the vote that the fraternities were damaging the reputation of the College by their anti-intellectualism and “animalistic” behavior. “When I go off this campus and meet people who ask me why I teach here, that is embarrassing,” Masters said.’</p>
<p>[TheDartmouth.com:</a> Initiative was two decades in the making](<a href=“http://thedartmouth.com/1999/02/17/news/initiative]TheDartmouth.com:”>http://thedartmouth.com/1999/02/17/news/initiative)</p>
<p>From Dartmouth’s not-so-distant past, an attitude that remains entrenched at the College:</p>
<p>“Our cohogs, they play four/ They’re a bunch of dirty whores/ With a knick knack baddy whack send the *****es home.”</p>
<p>[TheDartmouth.com:</a> Cohog Hums](<a href=“http://thedartmouth.com/2009/10/09/mirror/hums]TheDartmouth.com:”>http://thedartmouth.com/2009/10/09/mirror/hums)</p>
<p>Hmmm…my S’s house appeared to be about 30-50% “people of color” during his time there. So much for racism. Just keep painting with that broad brush, and labeling all fraternity members as racist, homophobic, anti-intellectual louts. You will get precisely nowhere.</p>
<p>I would suggest instead realizing that there are many people of good will who have participated in the Greek system, and working WITH them to find a solution. Are there bad actors? Certainly. Is everyone, or even MOST of the people who belong to houses a thug? Certainly not.</p>
<p>By all means, do away with the Greek system, at least as it currently exists. I’m still waiting for you to propose an actual course of action.</p>
<p>Mostly, I have just been posting analysis and perspectives that come from Dartmouth’s administrators, faculty and students themselves, along with outside media and legal complainants.</p>
<p>Dartmouth stalwarts may not be amenable to hearing the truth about the College, but others might be interested in reading what gets said and published about the school.</p>
<p>When three successive presidents, whose administrations cover the years 1981 to 2009, assert that the campus’ social system is dysfunctional and at odds with the school’s academic mission, who wouldn’t pay attention?</p>
<p>It’s very hard to change a culture that has existed for generations. Not only that, alumni who are part of Greek organizations give more money to their alma maters than those who aren’t. At Dartmouth, which is a top feeder school to Wall Street, that’s significant. The old boys’ network confers direct benefits to both those who participate in it by joining fraternities and to the college itself once the students graduate and go on to lucrative careers.</p>
<p>Maybe president-elect Hanlon will be able to summon the moral courage necessary to make Dartmouth’s campus hospitable to all students, not just some.</p>
<p>And so? What is your point? MY point is that yes, these things are true, so given that, how does one go about making the needed change. No one is denying that there is a problem, or at least <em>I</em> certainly am not. For that matter, my S, who belonged to a fraternity, thinks that they should be abolished. So how is that going to be accomplished? How to work with people of good will?</p>
<p>Continuing to label them en masse as racist, homophobic, rapist, anti-intellectual thugs is not going to achieve the desired goal.</p>
<p>Cross-posted: I certainly agree that it would be a good thing if he succeeded where Jim Wright did not.</p>
<p>Consolation:</p>
<p>Well, I think the first thing to do is make applicants and freshmen aware of the historical problems. Make sure their eyes are wide open.</p>
<p>Right now, Dartmouth entices kids to campus with the portrait of an educational nirvana, and when they get there they’re confronted with tons of dysfunction. That’s not fair.</p>
<p>And then, you go about closing the fraternities, or at least make them something other than the locus of misogyny and ritualized alcoholism.</p>
<p>That will take tenacity and moral courage, and probably a lot of legal action of various types, but somebody in Dartmouth’s long history is going to finally have to do the right thing so that the institution can join the 21st century.</p>
<p>Alternatively, Dartmouth could decide definitively that it really is just a school for white male athletes who are pretty smart but not particularly dedicated to academics, and stop inviting other types of students to campus to serve as window dressing and objects of exclusion and abuse. The College has been “half assing” it now for forty years, and it doesn’t work very well.</p>
<p>An even more radical approach would be to declare co-education a failure and start admitting only women.</p>
<p>In any case, Consolation, sorry to have been so adamant on this front, but last month’s campus protests re-activated a lot of bitter memories of terrible experiences at the College, and my subsequent research on the place has left me appalled. There is so much ugliness, and it rears its head like clockwork. Hundreds of kids have been discomfited, distressed and even worse over the decades up there in Hanover. It simply has to stop.</p>
<p>Dartmouth calls itself a “world class institution”; it’s time to start acting like one.</p>
<p>I have a class reunion coming up. Alcoholics Anonymous meetings are an official part of the program. Dartmouth’s historical abdication of its responsibility to ensure the health of its students ruins lives. Men implode, either quickly or slowly, and women get assaulted. Untold human potential gets wasted. And the rest of us alums find our diplomas devalued, and our alma mater causing us shame. It’s really bad news.</p>
<p>The following appeared in The Dartmouth today, and it was left in a Hinman box for a '13 by the previous occupant</p>
<p>"Dearest ’13,</p>
<p>I hope you’re enjoying my Hinman Box. Congratulations on being accepted to Dartmouth in a year that most ’09s, like me, would not have been so lucky. I just wanted to write and tell you how jealous I am of you. You get to spend the next four years in the most amazing place on earth. I would give almost anything to take your place, but, sadly, I had to move on. Four years may seem like forever to you now, but trust me, it’s not. One day you’ll be sitting in an office far away from Hanover wishing you could go back. So have the time of your life, meet amazing people, do amazing things and fall in love with Dartmouth. But above all remember that you only have four years, so go for it, do it now and don’t wait.</p>
<p>Love, An ’09"</p>
<p>This is the Dartmouth my D knows. I have read all of these posts, and I can tell you that I 100% don’t believe Dartmouth has a bigger problem than any other university. I could tell you stories from other schools that make Dartmouth seem extremely tame by comparison. We all agree there is no place on campus for rapists, racists, etc. But the vast majority of kids in the greek system are honorable, smart students. A few are ruining it for many. That is the same at any school. I am not in favor of getting rid of the greek system. My D has found friendships that will last a lifetime. And guess what, she hasn’t experienced any of the sexism or problems quoted here. How did she avoid this? For one, she doesn’t get stupid drunk. The majority of the problems come from kids that drink too much, and their behavior is unacceptable. This won’t stop if the Greek system is abolished. Dartmouth is in a small town, and college kids like to party. There is not a lot to do in Hanover, although DM sure provides lots of alternatives for non affiliated kids. Unfortunately, there is always a small percentage of people that aren’t happy at any school. Can DM improve? Sure, 100% I agree that kids need to take more responsibility. But overall, most of the kids that go to Dartmouth love it. All of this negative publicity will do one thing. It will drive away the kids that would help enforce positive change. The kids that will go to Dartmouth are kids that embrace Dartmouth’s culture, and that want a greek life. Many many schools have greek life, and there are many positive things about it.</p>
<p>Greek houses are not the same at every school. On some campuses, they are strictly service organizations; on others they are not residential; and on many, they represent a small fraction of students and do not dominate the social scene. Dartmouth is one of the top ten “most Greek” colleges in the country and the only elite one. Half of the students are in Greek houses and the social scene has long been dominated by the fraternities.</p>
<p>[10</a> Colleges With the Most Students in Fraternities - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2012/12/04/10-colleges-with-the-most-students-in-fraternities]10”>http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2012/12/04/10-colleges-with-the-most-students-in-fraternities)</p>
<p>When even the faculty (100 members of it) describe the tolerance of the drinking culture as “moral thuggery,” there’s a problem.</p>
<p>[Ivy</a> League Cracks Down as Students Spiral Out of Control - Bloomberg](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?)</p>
<p>Of course, kids do not become thugs or drunken bullies simply because they are in fraternities. But there doesn’t seem to be sufficient pressure to change the culture from the inside–at least not yet.</p>
<p>and this</p>
<p>[TheDartmouth.com:</a> This Dartmouth](<a href=“http://thedartmouth.com/2013/05/24/mirror/boger]TheDartmouth.com:”>http://thedartmouth.com/2013/05/24/mirror/boger)</p>
<p>Actually, the mirror section of the Dartmouth is full of articles today on seniors looking back over their college years, and the general consensus is LOVE of DARTMOUTH. It is not this bad place that some of these articles state. It is a wonderful community, and imo, the best college on earth. Some obviously do not agree with me. But many, many do.</p>
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<p>Easy enough to say “get rid of the frats,” but how about an actual realistic plan? There is a reason why so many Dartmouth presidents favored getting rid of the frats but all of them failed to actually do so. And that reason is money. </p>
<p>And by money I mean both higher expense (to buy out the frats and build dorms to make up the instant housing gap) and lower income (from reduced donations from alumni who fiercely love their old frats and and would be outraged were they abolished).</p>
<p>Griping about problems is easy. Solving them is hard. So what’s the plan? Where is all the money to pull this off going to come from? </p>
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<p>Radical? Get real. More like absurd. As long as we indulging in silly nonsense, how about proposing to pack up the whole college and move it to New York city, or maybe to France? That would certainly change the culture on campus. </p>
<p>I have read this thread with interest. And like Consolation, I think the frats are a net negative for Dartmouth and would like to see them gone or at least much reduced in importance and prominence in the social life of the college. But I don’t have a clear vision on how to pull that off, because, as I said above, it would cost a lot more than the school could afford. </p>
<p>So since I don’t have a sweeping solution I’m left thinking/hoping the new president will do what he can with cards he is dealt. Which IMO would include immediately expelling any student shown to have engaged in any sort of racism, sexual misconduct, or criminal behavior as well as immediately disbanding any frat shown to shown to engage in harmful hazing or allowing underage drinking on its premises. No probation. No second chances. Just serve notice that the frat boy culture is changing, and then enforce it. </p>
<p>You may consider that to be just more “half assing,” but I try to deal in approaches that are realistic to the actual situation on the ground rather than promoting sweeping, simplistic much-easier-said-than-done dreams and non-answers.</p>
<p>And the one thing I do not favor is the school and its students trashing itself in the press. Trying to convince the public in general and prospective students in particular that Dartmouth is a terrible place to go to college helps no one and does nothing to solve the problems. Instead everyone should be trying to promote the school for the many great qualities and opportunities it has and at the same time try to recruit reform-minded new students who are interested in helping to solve the problems making the place even better. Kick out the bad apples and replace them with good, but don’t cut down the whole tree.</p>
<p>But even if we succeed in getting rid of the frats, that will help only so much. Because, barring some of the absurdities mentioned above, the one thing about Dartmouth that no amount of reform is going to change is its location. Let’s face it. Hanover is a small, isolated place in a cold climate. Colleges in that situation very often end up with an alcohol-fueled party culture whether they have frats or not. Consider the examples of both Williams and Middlebury. Both are small, remote schools that abolished their frats decades ago. The frats are gone but the drinking culture persists to this day. </p>
<p>So I agree that it would be great if Dartmouth’s frats all went away, but I don’t kid myself that this alone will solve all its social problems. No amount of reform by the college is going turn Hanover into Boston or NYC. So to a significant degree Dartmouth students will always turn to whatever fun and social outlets there are available to them.</p>
<p>dumbo, most people will sing the praises of their alma mater–not only because of nostalgia and a sense of affinity with their classmates (especially around graduation time) but also because the continued good reputation of their college is of benefit to them in the workplace. Remaining part of the “club” of happy alumni is a good way to ensure connections and opportunities.</p>
<p>“You get to spend the next four years in the most amazing place on earth.”</p>
<p>How would a 22-year-old know this?!!</p>
<p>“All of this negative publicity will do one thing. It will drive away the kids that would help enforce positive change.”</p>
<p>The onus is not on the kids. It is on the adults in the Dartmouth community. We are the ones who have to speak up and demonstrate the moral courage necessary to ensure that the kids on campus are happy and able to achieve their full potential. I saw many classmates go backwards academically, and skid into the social ditch because of the intense pressure to get drunk at the fraternities. And I saw other classmates basically withdraw from campus life because of the fraternities and retreat to the margins for the next four years until they had their degrees in hand. Dartmouth loses the contributions of both sets of students. </p>
<p>“But even if we succeed in getting rid of the frats, that will help only so much.” </p>
<p>Unfortunately, that’s true. But almost nobody involved with Dartmouth that it will, in fact, help. And then we move on from there to address the next set of issues.</p>
<p>As for the expense, has anyone really totaled it up? Moreover, Dartmouth is wealthy. It can certainly afford to do the right thing. Even if it couldn’t, do the adults at Dartmouth really want to send the following message to kids: “Well, we wanted to be courageous and do right by our students, but - you know what? - it costs too much money. So we’re all just going to have to settle for a sub-optimal experience. Oh, and, by the way, we’re educating you all to become leaders, but please don’t follow our craven example. Also, we have already scheduled all the Alcoholics Anonymous meetings for the Class of 2013’s class reunions.”</p>
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<p>I went to Wellesley. A school that the PR classifies as one of the “Got Milk?” campuses. AA meetings are part of the alumni reunion weekend there, too.</p>
<p>I really think that you are lacking in perspective.</p>
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<p>Not only that, but the Greek houses at a given school can vary widely also. Something that you seem to be loathe to admit, at least in Dartmouth’s case. Not every frat at D is filled with white preppy jocks aiming at investment banking. (Not to mention the fact that not every white preppy jock aiming at IB is a drunken, anti-intellectual, rapist thug.)</p>
<p>Regarding the cost of housing, turning the houses into coed living spaces would help alleviate that. Of course, many of the houses would need substantial renovation.</p>
<p>admit that a lot of kids–including women and minorities–love Dartmouth. Hard as it is for you to believe.</p>