Should I give up on Investment Banking?

Career Opportunities & Internships
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<p>There's a lot of jobs out there and investment banking isn't the only path to success. But I want to know if, given my situation, investment banking is something too out of reach for me. Whatever career field I go into, I need to be fully dedicated to it, and knowing that investment banking really isn't going to happen for me now rather than later would allow me to focus more energy on other career fields.</p>

<p>And before anyone posts about "do what you're passionate about," please don't. Passion alone isn't enough to land a job, and we all know that. There's other things one should consider and that's what I want to find out. Second, NO ONE is really passionate about investment banking anyway; do you know anyone who wants to do investment banking for reasons BESIDES earning huge salaries and meeting rich clients at 5-star restaurants while wearing expensive suits?</p>

<p>1) I go to WashU's Olin Business School. It's not an Ivy League school and it's not even a good school. If you go to WashU, don't kid yourselves. A "good" school is one where people instantly recognize when you tell them; the ivy leagues are good schools because when you say "I go to [harvard, yale, princeton, etc.]," people think "wow, you're a genius." But when you tell people you go to WashU, they think "where the hell is that?" Granted, not everyone thinks that; the STL locals don't, but Wall Street is not in STL. </p>

<p>Besides the few firms that recruit on campus directly, not a single employer I've contacted know what WashU is; if they don't know your school, they think it's just some crappy liberal arts/state school. </p>

<p>Plus, St. Louis is the middle of nowhere, and no Wall Street firm is going to go all the way to the middle of nowhere to find talent when they can just look right outside NYC. Yes, WashU is tough and there's smart people here, but there's no point in all that if no one recognizes your talent. And that's really what WashU is: unrecognized talent. And unrecognized talent is worthless.</p>

<p>But I've complained enough about WashU. It was my decision to come here and I've got to make the best of it. At the very least, WashU is a very fun place with great people, but that's irrelevant. STL may be the middle of nowhere, but there's a few big names around here too. And if I can be sure investment banking is out of my reach, I can spend more efforts at these local companies.</p>

<p>2) I don't have wealthy or influential parents. My parents do scientific research and do not work in banking. The only people I know who have gotten investment banking experience at WashU are either from NYC and have connections beforehand or have parents who work in this field too. I do have connections to NYC as well, but I don't how far that'll get me since i do not live in NY or have parents working in banking. We all know in today's world, getting the job has little to do with your capability; it's about calling your relatives and having them hook you up with a job.</p>

<p>Also, what about commercial banking? Are they also strict in recruiting like investment banking or are they more lax?</p>

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<p>Bump, please.</p>

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<p>PLEASE, only answer if you have knowledge or experience in finance and investment banking. If your major/work is something else, no offense but please stay out of it. I’ve been told too many different answers, so I need to be picky on who to believe.</p>

<p>There’s a lot of jobs out there and investment banking isn’t the only path to success. But I want to know if, given my situation, investment banking is something too out of reach for me. Whatever career field I go into, I need to be fully dedicated to it, and knowing that investment banking really isn’t going to happen for me now rather than later would allow me to focus more energy on other career fields.</p>

<p>And before anyone posts about “do what you’re passionate about,” please don’t. While I do like finance-related work, passion alone isn’t enough to land a job, and we all know that. There’s other things one should consider and that’s what I want to find out. Second, NO ONE is really passionate about investment banking anyway; do you know anyone who wants to do investment banking for reasons BESIDES earning huge salaries and meeting rich clients at 5-star restaurants while wearing expensive suits? </p>

<p>1) I’m Olin Business School (Obviously). WashU isn’t an Ivy League school and, in my eyes and many employers’, not even a good school. Don’t kid yourselves. A “good” school is one where people instantly recognize when you tell them; the ivy leagues are good schools because when you say “I go to [harvard, yale, princeton, etc.],” people think “wow, you’re a genius.” But when you tell people you go to WashU, they think “where the hell is that?” Granted, not everyone thinks that; the STL locals don’t, but Wall Street is not in STL. If WashU were located near NYC, there’s little doubt it’d be the #1 business school in the country, but sadly that’s not the case.</p>

<p>Besides the firms that recruit on campus directly, not a single employer I’ve contacted know what WashU is; if they don’t know your school, they think it’s just some crappy liberal arts/state school. </p>

<p>Plus, St. Louis is the middle of nowhere, and no Wall Street firm is going to go all the way to the middle of nowhere to find talent when they can just look right outside NYC. Yes, WashU is tough and there’s smart people here, but there’s no point in all that if no one recognizes your talent. And that’s really what WashU is: unrecognized talent. And unrecognized talent is worthless.</p>

<p>But I’ve complained enough about WashU. It was my decision to come here and I’ve got to make the best of it. At the very least, WashU is a very fun place with great people, but that’s irrelevant. STL may be the middle of nowhere, but there’s a few big names around here too. And if I can be sure investment banking is out of my reach, I can spend more efforts at these local companies. </p>

<p>2) I don’t have wealthy or influential parents. My parents do scientific research and do not work in banking. The only people I know who have gotten investment banking experience at WashU are either from NYC and have connections beforehand or have parents who work in this field too. I do have connections to NYC as well, but I don’t how far that’ll get me since I do not live in NY or have parents working in banking. We all know in today’s world, getting the job has little to do with your capability; it’s about calling your relatives and having them hook you up with a job, and sometimes, even alumni connections aren’t enough. Remember back when you’re applying for college: it’s much easier to get into a school when you have family members who went there too.</p>

<p>3) Also probably due to the 2 reasons above, I couldn’t even find an internship in Investment Banking either. Today, internships are probably the ONLY way to land a job in this field. Before you disagree with me, think about it. Investment Banking requires a commitment beyond what most people could understand. Even though I know what to expect, why would a firm hire me when they could hire someone else who’s already experienced this tough commitment? Yes, not everyone with an internship gets a job, but over 80% do, and trying to squeeze into that less than 20% would be rather difficult.</p>

<p>Considering all that, who thinks Investment Banking is far out of my reach?
Also, what about commercial banking? Are they also strict in recruiting like investment banking or are they more lax?</p>

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<p>Do you read Mergers & Inquisitions? The recruitment section really has a lot of information about how to get your foot in the door even if you aren’t at a target school and don’t have any personal connections.</p>

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<p>I’m surprised to hear this. I always thought Olin was very highly regarded. See the career/employment office on campus. Anyway, have you tried landing a job in Chicago? I would think Chicago would be more familiar with WUSTL than NYC because of proximity.</p>

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<p>This thread is, interestingly enough, making me consider crossing WashU off my college list.</p>

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<p>Oiln’s a good school, not the best but good enough. What firms do you want to work for? Call and ask for a courtesy interview. If they haven’t heard of Olin then you’re talking to the wrong person or they’re weighing your tenacity and self esteem by putting you on the defensive.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the advice. Yes I have read M&A but the tips sound extremely generic and nothing that I haven’t already done. </p>

<p>I definitely want to work for one of the Big 4 when it comes to Investment Banking. But to increase my chances, I’m considering several boutique investment firms as well. Basically, if a company offers investment banking services, I will want to go there.</p>

<p>I have considered Chicago but it still doesn’t compare to NYC, especially since Chicago as a city is kind of going downhill. Regardless, Wall street is the way to go for Investment Banking; I don’t know anyone else working in Investment Banking in cities besides NYC.</p>

<p>And I’m not saying you shouldn’t go to WashU. If you plan on going to Med School, WashU is great (if you can handle it…). But if you plan to work right out of school, then you’d probably want to pick another. Like I said, there’s lots of talent on WashU, but it’s mostly unrecognized talent. Which is a shame because if you look at the admissions stats, you’d be blown away. The average SAT of just Olin students was over 1500(out of 1600). Investment Banks clearly state your major means little, so it’s more about where you went instead. As much as I hate to admit this, the sad truth is that an English major (or some irrelevant major) from Harvard will be preferred over a finance major from WashU, just because it’s Harvard and it’s an Ivy League school.</p>

<p>But I will also admit, despite all the fun I’m having, I’ve often considered transferring just because I’m tired of working so hard and not have it recognized.</p>

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<p>I think what they are trying to say is do something that you have a comparative advantage over your peers. I subscribe to the belief that it’s better to be a “big fish in small pond” than a “small fish in a big pond” if you will.</p>

<p>Investment banking threads always crack me up because people are consistently obsessed with how much the star performers will earn, but they lose track of how many people leave, quit, etc. Ask yourself this: of all the analysts that enter the financial sector, what is the average salary for all of them (including the ones that can’t hack it) 5 years later? My guess is that it’s astoundingly lower than most people think.</p>

<p>I know plenty of classmates from high school that went to top 20 undergrads and the financial sector. The vast majority of them worked their tail off to get into those schools and worked their tail off just to survive in the financial sector. </p>

<p>But life is a marathon and success is measured throughout your entire lifespan. Those that dedicate themselves to learning, growing, and continually seeking new challenges are those that will progress.</p>

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<p>Darkknight, you’re intent here, as it has been in previous posts, is to bash WUSTL. Two-thirds of your tirade is about how awful the school is with some back-handed compliments. If it’s not too late, I highly recommend that you transfer to another school. Your anger and bitterness will not serve you well.</p>

<p>I do know investment banking and know that Olin students get positions in investment banking and consulting firms. What are your capabilities and personal qualities that would make you a strong candidate for investment banking? How is your academic record? What networking have you done outside of WUSTL? What leadership positions have you held? There are students at Ivy League schools that will never get into IB because they lack the desired qualities. My son just graduated from Art Sci and many of his friends in Artsci have gotten just incredible jobs. He is still looking because of his own lack of initiative but is now getting a number of interviews (as a liberal arts major).</p>

<p>You need to do some real soul searching.</p>

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<p>I/B is a huge world. The big firms are resume gold, but the small boutique firms offer great experience and probably more hands on experience. Don’t forget about silicon valley.</p>

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<p>I am going out on a limb to say this. If the summer internship between your jr and sr year is not in IB, you can forget about a full time IB (front office) position right after graduation. Possible but not practical, given the market these days. And if I had so many negative feelings/attitude about my school, I wouldn’t invest in a masters program at same school, if I were you. Good luck.</p>

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<p>kkuo12887- I don’t understand where you’re getting at. I know investment banking and typically it is really more of a prolonged internship. As an analyst you work ridiculous hours doing stuff that doesn’t impact the firm much. But it’s pure gold on your resume. That’s why many people quit after just 2-3 years. It’s definitely not a long term job but it pays well and is a good learning experience.</p>

<p>Sosomenza- I’m considering all investment firms including boutique. Silicon Valley not so much because when it comes to business and finance, wall street still has more to offer, experience-wise</p>

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<p>First, I never said I hate my school in all contexts, only investment banking. And if you all agree that it is clearly outbid my reach, then I’ve got my answer.</p>

<p>cg123- my intent into find help and see if ibanking is still possible for me. I never said how awful WUSTL is, but just that it’s probably not perceived as “good” on wall street. In other business areas, like Supply Chain Mgt, WUSTL is probably top tier given the firms here in STL (AB, emerson, ameren, etc.). Get your interpretations straight next time. And believe me when I say I have all those qualities you just mentioned. I have over 3.5 GPA, commercial banking experience (in china, if it’s worth it), founded a new student group, establishing my own investment firm, and also working on building a credit union in STL. But even all that hasn’t proven to be enough. You can still blame me you’d be right but you know it’s not completely on my hands. At the very least, not going to an ivy league school puts me at disadvantage, maybe enough to fully deter me. If so, I won’t hate my school for it; I’ll just have to take my skills elsewhere.</p>

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<p>jvtdad- you’re probably the first person whose conservative enough to say that. Everyone else told me it’s possible to land IBD without an internship. I’m in between jr and sr year and doing a commercial banking internship in China at one of China’s big 4. I don’t know if it’ll get me anywhere but it at least gives me an excuse travel, which is always nice.</p>

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<p>Sure, that’s true; Everything is possible, whether it is a practical thing to do depends on specifics. IBDs don’t even require you major in finance or business related. In fact, with the exception of one or two, the target schools don’t offer undergraduate program in business. If you extend beyond BB, you’d increase your odds. Again, good luck in your job search.</p>

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<p>And before anyone calls me out for being full of crap. Can you prove it?</p>

<p>Are you or someone you know got an IB gig and…</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Did not attend Ivy League school</p></li>
<li><p>Did not have wealthy/influential parents or relatives</p></li>
<li><p>Did not have an IB internship after jr year</p></li>
</ol>

<p>If you or your buddy meets all these, then you’d make a forceful point. But if not, with all due respect, you won’t have much credibility if, say, his dad is the CEO of Robert W. Baird.</p>

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<p>I’d question how successful someone could be in finance (or any other field) if they aren’t passionate about it, but heck, I’m not in finance…</p>

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<p>What exactly are you trying to prove? I think no one has “called you out” on it because what you’ve said is basically a re-hash of other threads in this subforum and in the Ibanking sub-forum. It’s not novel.</p>

<p>Personally, I think finance is over-rated and a raw deal. </p>

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<p>Having an excellent plan and executing it with due effort is better than having a less than stellar plan and putting all your energy into it.</p>

<p>You need to analyze your strengths and weaknesses as well as those of your competition. Do you have any comparative advantages? If you don’t, what can you do to better position yourself? If the answer is “work hard”, well, you would be like my Asian friends that bought into the BS their parents sold them…</p>

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<p>If you’re not in finance then how would you know? But in case you’re wondering…</p>

<p>Few people are actually passionate about IB. Why? At the entry level you work 80 hour weeks doing mostly meaningless work, relative to the whole company. So why do people do it? It’s good experience and pays well. Thats really it. Very few people start off as an analyst and stay. But to many people including myself, good experience and a high salary is enough of a career. </p>

<p>I’m not asking if IB is suitable for me, I’m asking if, realistically speaking, IB is too out of reach for me given the fact that in don’t attend an ivy league school and don’t have influential parents.</p>

<p>And I’m not trying to prove anything with that last post. I just put it there to deter anyone from saying stuff like “anything is possible if you’re extremely passionate about it.” Its not that simple. I could say I want to dedicate my whole life to IB but still can’t get in because there’s other factors beyond my control. </p>

<p>Hard work doesn’t always pay off.</p>

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<p>Also while your opinions are much appreciated, no one has really answered my question.</p>

<p>Yes I am I interested in IB but so are many others and not everyone interested in it are going to get it, despite the fact that everyone seems extremely capable of it.</p>