<p>I just had a talk with my friend and basically, she says that going to BMC really closes more doors than it opens. And after reading all of your comments and talking to her, I have to agree. I mean the idea of that much debt just makes me nervous, and going to St. Mary's would just be much more comfortable for all of us. I felt guilty when my mom said that they'd have to take the huge sum of money that would come out of the equity of their home and donate two thirds of it to my education/loans, which would significantly reduce the cost of their living in retirement. I mean I guess I may think in the future, what would Bryn Mawr have been like, but by going to SMCM I can still get into a top flight grad school (I'm thinking about pursuing a law degree in order to advocate for social justice and humans rights issues, which has always been my passion without a doubt). Going to Bryn Mawr might limit that option, delay it or negate it entirely. My dad really wants to see me go to Bryn Mawr but...I dunno, just doesn't sit right with me, all that debt.</p>
<p>The problem with ADOFFICER's point is that a Bryn Mawr degree is not worth that much more than a St. Mary's degree in the marketplace--particularly if one factors in the reality that Newchick is likely to have a better record at St. Mary's simply because the average student is less academically talented.</p>
<p>Newchick, please take mercymom's post to heart. I know that you're in love with Bryn Mawr, but trust me--no one knows how a particular college is going to turn out until they get there.</p>
<p>To me, St. Mary's is the clear choice.</p>
<p>newchick - I'm wondering what would close doors going to BMC? My daughter will be a Freshman there next year (she finally made the decision), and we are going to have to pay a fairly steep amount ourselves, out of our current income. Since DD is from a "broken" home, i.e. has NCP financials in consideration as well, it will be a struggle, but it's doable.</p>
<p>I can't personally imagine taking out PLUS loans since my DH is pushing 60 and would probably be retired by the time we would have to pay back substantial loans.....OTOH, the NCP and his spouse in this matter can certainly contribute, since they actually own a home and we don't.</p>
<p>Personally, I'd rather pay out of our current income than tap any retirement savings (which I thought were untouchable anyway). I'm beginning to find that I am quite, quite naive about this whole financial process, even though I am in the financial field professionally. Embarrassing.</p>
<p>BTW, with our EFC, we'd be able to send her to the State U with absolutely no finaid, or to Bryn Mawr with the comparable out of pocket. To us, there's no comparison, since DD will not flourish at a State the way she will at BMC.</p>
<p>20k in loans is (mostly) less than buying a new car.....many young people readily take on the car loans, though.</p>
<p>I'm still confused at the whole doors being closed remark. Feel free to PM me. My D and our whole family is embracing BMC at this point and financially, it's about the same as the other acceptances.</p>
<p>Erin's Mom, I think newchick is talking about the doors that will be closed to her if she graduates $60K-$100K in debt -which is what her parents have told her she would be facing with Bryn Mawr. Essentially, newchick would probably have to give up on her dream to become a human rights lawyer -- since the pay scale for lawyers working for the type of nonprofit agencies where she could pursue her passion for social justice is quite low, and internships in that field tend to be unpaid. She would be committing all her finances to her 4 years as an undergrad -- and have to face many years of prioritizing earning capacity over her personal goals while she pays back those loans.</p>
<p>Newchick, I am going to be a bit presumptuous. This,however, hasn't stopped me.</p>
<p>You note,"
I am the only child. My family doesn't have any money saved up, but my parents earn a good salary. We're middle class (which is unfortunate for this situation).?"</p>
<p>You also note that this means that you will be incurring debt between 60,000-$80,000. Frankly, I bet it will possibly be more because folks forget the little things such as entertainment, car, health insurance, travel back home, misc supplies etc. In addition, tuition, fees, room and board will probably escalate by at least 5% per year. This has to be filtered into the equasion.</p>
<p>Even the Admission's Officer noted in post 28 that there seemed to be a big gap in your financial award.</p>
<p>Here are my suggestions based on the facts noted above:</p>
<ol>
<li>Speak with the financial aid office and tell them the facts. You should try to get an increase in grants and NOT loans.</li>
</ol>
<p>2.You should put pen to paper and figure out what you can earn duing the year. For example, if you work 10 hours per week and during the summer, figure out what you can possibly earn in order to pay off part of this debt. Don't use the whole salary because you will have to pay 7.65% in social security and roughtly 15% (Federal and state) on the salary. Thus, you will be left with about 80% of what you earn to pay debt.</p>
<ol>
<li>If you can't get your debt to be less than 40K ( and preferably less than 30K), I would ABSOLUTELY recommend that you go elsewhere to the state university. Otherwise, you will be onerously incurring too much debt, as Mini noted above, whose consequences to you would be dire. In addition, I am very concerned about your parent's situation. If they are in their late 40s, they really won't have time to accrue enough funds for a decent retirement.</li>
</ol>
<p>Save the money to attend a good grad school or professional school. You will be glad that you listened to me; otherwise, your dream school could also mean the possible killing of future dreams in life by significantly reducing your options.</p>
<p>By the way, I know what I am saying isn't fair. Here you have this wonderful school ,such as Bryn Mawr, and great seeming fit, and yet, financially you can't afford it. It isn't fair, but the number don't seem to work. It also isn't fair to ask you, as a teenager, to make a very adult financial decision. </p>
<p>I promise you that if you go to the state university and attain good grades, you will have a lot of opportunities. Most importantly, being mostly debt free will also give you a lot of options in life that you won't have when you are saddled with lots of debt. Trust me, Don't incur a lot of debt for education. Read over the thread found at the top of the parent's forum,"Should I incur substantial debt for my dream school." There are some hair raising experiences of folks who regretably undertook a lot of debt for their undergraduate education, and almost invariably, they have regretted incurring this debt. Don't do this to yourself, and, despite what your parents are saying, don't make them spend a lot of money or incur a lot of debt either.</p>
<p>To me, St. Marys or another Maryland state university is the clear choice for you!</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's a little late now but I wish you had a choice between the "split-level" and the "mansion." Someplace you could love that would love you back.
[/quote]
MomMusic: yep.</p>
<p>the short answer is no, hell no.</p>
<p>One thing about adofficer's post. On our insurance, we can keep the kids on the policy until age 25 if they remain a full time student with no breaks in attendance. Even one semester off, much less 5 years, would knock 'em off the policy. That is one reason I'll be sweating D1's grad school apps next year. Also, just a tip all around, the kid goes off the policy after they turn 21 unless a full time student, so D1 is taking classes she doesn't need to graduate next year (she's ahead with her credits) just to maintain full time status during senior year for the insurance. I know some people think "oh i'll work and earn more money", but the loss in terms of health insurance may make that decision come out in negative numbers.</p>
<p>Anyway, we are encouraging our kids to go to grad school immediately after ug if at all possible, just for the insurance, and also to do grad school full time. Same thing about "earning money", part time grad school knocks the kid off the policy.</p>
<p>And if, like our neighbor's D, it turns out you have to delay say going to the Pratt Institute for your mfa for a year, if you decide to work in a coffee shop, pick Starbucks who gives ees health insurance, and not the locally owned coffee shop who doesn't, even if you think the locally owned shop is "cuter".</p>
<p>edit - it may have been the other way around on the coffee shop jobs, but the neighbor's d picked the cuter place to work with no health insurance, so her parents had to pay for an extra policy for her; fortunately, they could afford it.</p>
<p>Mercy, our kid bought a no frills health insurance policy for $40 a month once he graduated from college. Has fantastic major medical coverage in case he gets hit by a bus; if he needs to go to a DR with a cold he pays out of pocket. Kid hasn't seen a DR in four years at college, despite being on our policy, plus the added college health care plan which cost an extra $700 per year.</p>
<p>Net-- dont spend thousands of dollars of tuition for a degree you don't want for the sake of a cheapo health insurance policy..... it's a ridiculous use of funds. Unless your kid smokes, has diabetes, or some other long term health issues, it is far, far cheaper for them to do what they want in life (including defering grad school if that makes sense career wise) than for them to go into hock to pay tuition to stay on your policy.</p>
<p>newchick: I absolutely agree that you should not take on that kind of debt for any school. I'm firmly in taxguy's camp here. You seem to have been limited to only two choices: BMC and St. Marys. St. Marys is a wonderful school (I live in Maryland) if it's the right fit for the student. Both of my girls could have gone there; neither was interested. Because of the cost you stated for St Marys, I get the impression that you are not in Maryland, right? So you're looking at paying out of state tuition for St Marys? I'm going to offer another alternative to consider: Take a year off. Research schools; get the specifics of your parents' intended contribution figured out. If you can get into BMC and St Marys now, you can get into a host of very fine and wonderful schools, next year. (And you can even work and save some money.) My youngest D is doing this, for different reasons. It seems that gap years are not only accepted now, they're almost trendy. Think about it, and good luck to you.</p>
<p>blossom - Good health is always a blessing. You are very lucky and so is your son. May your good fortune continue. I just got back from the pharmacy for my youngest. Let's see, $15 copay, insurance saved $250. The doctor visit was $15 copay, insurance saved $150. Yesterday we got another bill from the middle one's surgery, $1600 they "forgot" about billing us earlier.</p>
<p>Good health and never going to the doctor are true blessings.</p>
<p>btw, i'm not advocating going to grad school just to stay on your parents health insurance, but with my oldest child, she is doing audiology and you can't get a job w/o a doctorate. same thing with speech pathology, only there you can't get a job w/o a masters. i mean i guess you could go work in a bank or something, but they won't license you to work in speech or audiology just with a bachelors degree. so if that's what you want to do you're stuck going to grad school and you know that from day one.</p>
<p>i would never recommend anyone go to grad school just to stay on their parents health insurance.</p>
<p>Okay, I am going to confess that I haven't read all the posts, but I want to tell Newchick that debt is a serious matter. I attended both prestigious and non-prestigious schools. My job offers and grad schools opportunities did not depend on the name of the school, but on my performance. Debt limits your options down the road. I would not go to Bryn Mawr under the circumstances.</p>
<p>"If a student really wants to graduate with no debt, buy a brand new car when the graduate, live alone in a city, and take vacations, then borrowing a lot is probably not the best move. But if you are willing to delay that gratification for 5-6 years out of school - when you'll probably be making over $50k/year - it can be worth it."</p>
<p>There are alternatives besides spending money on student loans and spending it on luxuries. How about this: you graduate with no debt, but you decide not to have a car at all, you live with a roommate, you use your vacations to visit family, and you put what would have been the payments on an $80k undergrad loan into a mutual fund. You're able to buy a home and put away a substantial nest egg before the age of 30. Then you are in a position to withstand the recessions, job loss, illness, and disability that fate may throw your way...and you're also in a position to pay for your children's (or nieces and nephews') educations, or to quit your more lucrative job in favor of the kind of social justice job the OP wants, or to retire at 50 if you don't take either of those options.</p>
<p>(No, this isn't a hypothetical.)</p>
<p>You're giving up a lot besides short-term luxuries when you take on the kind of undergrad debt the OP is considering.</p>
<p>How about this: Go to St. Mary's for your first two years at low cost. Then, if you still dream of Bryn Mawr, transfer for the last two years, which is typically when you'll take the meat of your major courses anyhow. That's what I did "way back when" (well, not those schools, but inexpensive public route 1st two years, then expensive private the last two).</p>
<p>However, there is a caveat -- first, don't go to St. Mary's unless you're going to give it an honest chance. The archeology program there, by the way, is exceptional. I would not call it an inferior choice, just a different one.</p>
<p>Good luck with your final choice.</p>
<p>Trying to transfer after a few years is a great option, though it is not guaranteed. </p>
<p>What this thread brings to my mind is the odd relationship Americans have with debt. Many folks seem to be against borrowing a lot of $$$ for one's dream college, yet many (and I'm not saying anyone who has posted here necessarily!) in our society have no problem putting themselves $40k, $50k, $60k+ in credit card debt, taking out mortgages they cannot afford after a year, and buying cars they can't afford. We live off of debt in American society, yet people seem, IMO, to be more willing to put themselves in debt for material things than for education - something that benefits society AND the individual. $450 a month for my new BMW? Sure! $450 a month for student loans? No way!</p>
<p>IF the OP is 100% sure that BMC is the right place for her, I hope she will be able to make it work. Yes, paying $60k back over 10, 15, or 30 years seems daunting, but considering there are now 50 year mortgages, it seems like a good deal to me - a house can be lost in minutes to a force of nature, but your education will be with you for the rest of your life!</p>
<p>mercymom - If a student gets a professional job right after college that offers health insurance (like I did), then they can put off grad school for a little while and not worry about losing insurance... </p>
<p>mini - fyi - I get the impression that you think I lived like a pauper for the 5 years after I graduated college! It really isn't that hard to live comfortably (w/a roommate) in a city, even with a car, while aggressively paying down your loans. After 5 years, I had paid off over $22k and had little credit card debt, went out often, saw my family and friends often, and had food in my belly every night. If a student is responsible with their finances, they can live comfortably on $35-$40k/year while paying down their loans.</p>
<p>As I said, $25k isn't much in these days (just a little over the average in college debt), and payable. But you took five years off, and didn't pay it off, (and as I read it, didn't save anything for grad school either), then took out $45k for grad school, and scheduled yourself for another 10-15 years to pay it off. So your situation, which is certainly not close to being akin to the OP's, has you paying til age 40 or so.</p>
<p>The OP, in contrast, was thinking of $60k-$100k in the first four years, with debt payments about 50% higher than you repaid even in the first five years when you chose not to go to grad school, and then would be adding law school debt on top of that. And then wants to be a poverty lawyer. It's not tenable, and it isn't even close to being comparable to your situation.</p>
<p>I don't think it has anything to do with BMC. I don't think it would be worth doing for Yale.</p>
<p>strongly concur with mini. The Stafford loan limits feel about right (Goldilocks max.).</p>
<p>Other than Stafford loan limits, IMO, the ONLY debt worth assuming is for an inexpensive car or a home. A 50 year home loan is beyond stupid; just bcos they build it, does not mean one should come.</p>
<p>Agree with AdOfficer that a college loan is better than a Beemer loan for the same amount, but its not better than a Corolla loan. :D</p>
<p>Funny you should mention it, AO, but I look at our PLUS loans as an alternative car loan. We own two cars free and clear and for quite a while the PLUS loan payments are just a substitute for a car payment. Unfortunately, there is a time coming where for a few years we will have both but it's been nice, and manageable, having the PLUS loan in lieu of car loan for three years.</p>
<p>
That's a bad habit and I certainly have done everything within my own power to discourage my own children from irresponsible use of their own credit cards -- that is, I've taught them that their cards are a convenience that should be paid in full each month.
[quote]
taking out mortgages they cannot afford after a year, and buying cars they can't afford.
[/quote]
The difference with a mortgage or car loan is that you are paying for it at the same time as enjoying the benefit of the home or car. We don't make mortgage payments on houses we no longer live in (unless we have paying tenants in them) -- nor do we continue to make payments on cars we no longer own. Those loans are secured by property that usually has a value that exceeds the amount owed - so in the worst case scenario, the home or car can be sold and the debt extinguished. In fact, we purchase insurance policies to protect us against loss of our our homes or cars precisely so that we will not face the problem of having remaining debt if the property is destroyed. </p>
<p>You know, borrowing looks like a good deal when it enables you to pay for something in the present that you could not otherwise afford -- but it does not feel the same when years go by and you are paying for something when the direct benefits are long since passed. Perhaps borrowing to pay for a professional education makes a lot of sense: every time a doctor or lawyer makes a payment on a student loan, they can see how it directly enables them to practice their current profession. </p>
<p>But an undergrad education, while valuable, isn't quite the same. If it is a matter of a payment of $200-$300 a month, it is probably easy enough -- but a large payment that undermines the person's ability to build the foundation for their future and the rest of their life is not so easy to justify. Most people would like to have the option to consider marriage and start a family in their late 20's or early 30's -- and debt can very well stand in the way. </p>
<p>So my personal #1 rule about debt is that, as an adult, I will not take on more debt that exceeds available assets -- in other words, I intend to maintain a positive net worth. Debt can be useful as a way of allowing me to finance new purchases without liquidating other assets, such as retirement assets or real property -- but the point is that if I lost my job tomorrow, I would still be able to pay off all my debt without going bankrupt. </p>
<p>Students don't usually have the assets available to leverage their debt in quite that way, so they are going to start off with a negative net worth -- they owe more money than they have. I think that's why I have the rule of thumb of debt not exceeding a conservative estimation of first year salary -- I view the student's one asset as the amount that they can earn.</p>