Should my daughter look to other majors?

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>Or at least a non-conservatory program?</p>

<p>Here is the problem....</p>

<p>1) she burns out when expected to rehearse too long. She left a high school rehearsal yesterday after 5 hrs, crying. They had had breaks. There was only 1 hr left. I do not know how long she had been upset. But apparently, it was bad enough that the teacher told her she needed to take a break for the rest of the weekend. Is this normal for people who are going in to music? Or is this a sign that perhaps she is not ready for this? She is a junior now. </p>

<p>2) on the same note, she went to Interlochen 1.5 yrs ago for the summer. At this, she was not happy most of the time. Then she came home upset and miserable. She said she hated having to practice all the time so she definitely will not be majoring in music.</p>

<p>3) she still mentions other things she enjoys and would like to study, but says music is her passion. Everyone who speaks to us on this says you should have music be so much of a passion that you cannot imagine doing anything else.</p>

<p>My idea is that she needs to be at a school with plenty of music opportunity, maybe even the chance to double major, rather than an all out , study music only, type program.</p>

<p>Please tell me your opinion? Thanks! (and any schools that you think might be a good fit)</p>

2

<p>I do not know your D and we certainly can not address WHY she is running out of rehearsals crying… but there are plenty of kids who are in love with the idea of “a passion” rather than the actual work required to pursue that passion. Ask any parent of a successful musician and they will tell you that their kid never had to be forced to practice.</p>

3

<p>She never has to be forced to practice. But, she does not have the endurance to last 6 hours, even when there are breaks. At home, she practices all the time. She gets interrupted a lot. Like, she tries to practice at 11pm, which wakes up her brothers who have bordering bedrooms. Her teacher told her to start practicing earlier in the day, but she does not feel like getting up that early. By “that early” I mean before 10 or 11am. I woke her up at 11am today. She gets up in time for school during the week.</p>

4

<p>I took your line “she said she hated having to practice” at face value. Apologies</p>

5

<p>Sorry…I meant she hated it after that many hours. I was wondering if the hating it after that many hours was an issue. Sorry. I should have proof read. (which I still have not done, I am typing while breastfeeding, LOL, 1 finger typing!)</p>

<p>OK…I proofread now, I said “she hated having to practice all the time.” By that, I meant many many hours a day. At Interlochen, it was pretty much a most of the day sort of thing. Which is what I would think an aspiring musician would do.</p>

6

<p>If she does not practice “enough” (a judgement call) then she will likely be passed by for playing opportunities while at collge. She does not have to like practicing, but it she needs to do it. (I guess there are some who can get away with practicing less…)</p>

7

<p>How yesterday went was, she practiced about an hour on her own at home before heading off to rehearsal which was 1-7pm. They had breaks. It was a rehearsal for a musical. She is playing in the orchestra pit. I think there has been an issue too, with the people in the theater department not having their choreography together, meaning, the orchestra spent a lot of time sitting there while the theater people (teachers and such) hashed out what they were doing. The orchestra director, on Thursday, called them theater out on it and told them that they were wasting the time of the orchestra by making them sit there while they hash out their issues. She excused the orchestra early and told the theater director to have things sorted out before they come back and gave the orchestra a couple day break. They came back Saturday. I sort of assume the issues had been sorted out or the Orchestra director would have pulled the plug on things that day. But it was a 6 hr straight in the orchestra pit, with at least 1 break. Apparently though, my daughter said she could not leave. This is because she has a new viola (it is not new, but it is new to her, and expensive to us) and was told she cannot ever leave it out of her sight, unless it is locked up. Since she could not go back to the actual orchestra room to lock it up, she stayed in her seat and held it the entire time they were on break. Someone else’s violin was actually stolen on Friday. I am not sure if all those factors led to the burn out. Or if these are just things she needs to learn to deal with in the real world of being a musician.</p>

8

<p>Does your D tell you how she is feeling “physically” after playing for a long time? The mental energy needed to focus for hours on end is draining for most people. How was the noise level on Saturday? Does she gets headaches? Does she feel overwhelmed and anxious? Sometimes, sensory overload is just too much and she may have just gotten overwhelmed and then she cried. The stress comes out somewhere. Sometimes, it is nice to have music as an escape and enjoyment from other stressors in life, but if it is causing the stress, I think I would see if there is a field/major and college/program which can accommodate both her love of music and another field she is interested in. I hope your D is okay. Musicals are full of many “dramatic” personalities and the pit never gets enough credit for their services. I do not know what area of the country you live in, but there are colleges (such as Allegheny), who stipulate you have two diverse areas of interest to major in.</p>

9

<p>It kind of sounds like you are more up for your daughter going into music as a major than she seems to be right now. I assume she’s very good, otherwise you wouldn’t have mentioned a conservatory. She may be burned out with music, especially if her music lessons and practice sessions have been strictly enforced throughout her life and have cut into free time she might have wanted to spend doing something else. </p>

<p>It is hard enough to make a career in, say, music performance so unless she has the passion for it (live, work, breathe music like they do in a conservatory) she may be happier at a university or liberal arts college that has a good music department but offers other subjects of interest for her to explore as well. That way she has the option to continue with music, or not. You can encourage, cajole, implore, command, but unless she’s happy with what she’s doing and also has the intestinal fortitude to endure long practice sessions every day it’s not going to work. She won’t be motivated and she won’t do well, and then both of you will be unhappy.</p>

10

<p>Two things:</p>

<p>A 6-hour rehearsal, no matter how many breaks she may have, is very, very rough. She could be in pain, the conditions could be bad, and she could be claustrophobic.</p>

<p>Does she ever split up her practise time into blocks? Two one-hour blocks of practise a day will be more beneficial than a full two hours, especially if she’s impatient or not fond of practising.</p>

11

<p>She has had issues with her back hurting.</p>

<p>She has been wanting to go the conservatory route.</p>

12

<p>My daughter does musicals sometimes, and also went to Interlochen and did not like it. Mine is very serious about music and is currently auditioning at conservatories.</p>

<p>I take it you are not a musician. I was one long enough to know about different kinds of rehearsals and music camps. Not all music experiences are equal, at all, but if you haven’t been in some of the situations your daughter is in, it is hard for you, or any parent, to make distinctions.</p>

<p>First of all, the 6-hour musical rehearsal. That is far too long of a rehearsal for a violist. If your daughter can drop out of it, she should. What you have described is a waste of time for a serious musician, and your daughter is probably bored to death. There is a high school in our county which recently asked my daughter to come play oboe, but she said no. They wanted musicians to rehearse twice a week for several hours, for 3 months! Here is an example of an experience that IS worth the time of a serious musician: My daughter is starting a musical tomorrow, at her own school. The musical director has hired 6 professional musicians, plus gets my daughter for free. She has a “Reed” book, and will juggle playing oboe, English horn, clarinet and tenor sax. The other four Reed players are top saxophonists from the military bands. Because it is an all-professional orchestra, they will only have three rehearsals (3 hours each–not 6!), then the three performances. My daughter gets to play with some outstanding players for one week. In all the other musicals she has played in (15 now) she has been paid and plays with professionals. They usually only do 2-3 rehearsals, then about 9 performances. Your daughter should look for community theater groups to play in if she is interested in this type of music. Ours are always looking for viola players. They typically pay between $10-$35 a session. Not much, but it pays the gas.</p>

<p>Interlochen: not all experiences at music camps, even good and famous ones, are good ones. I know many students have had a great experience there, but mine did not because she was put into groups below her level of playing, and she was frustrated. Bottom line: I would not judge your daughter’s level of commitment based on one music camp.</p>

<p>As for practicing, as others have said, it must be done. What I do, or did when my daughter was younger, was to check and make sure she wasn’t wasting her time in a musical activity, because that can lead to frustration that doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with the real world of music or your child’s commitment to music.</p>

13

<p>It seems like you have been giving a lot of good advice by people who know more than I do about music. I am not a musician but do I do know a lot about mental health and teens and the challenges teens face. Even good teens can struggle to survive this period in their lives. Back pain, sleep disregulation, moodiness, crying easily, distortions about what might be expected of her (which may or may not be happening)- these could all be signs that your daughter is dealing with more than just a crisis about music and practicing. Obvously I don’t know you or your daughter (although I know you are breastfeeding…which is awesome…I am an ex LLLI leader). But I thought I would throw it out there just in case any of what I am about to say rings a bell.</p>

<p>The tricky thing about mood disorders (regardless of their cause-which I will get to in a minute) is that a person can be functioning and be successful but they will not be achieving to their maximum potential. When my musician child is feeling depressed he is less motivated to practice. He is easily frustrated and overwhelmed by things his teachers or peers might ask. He still says he loves music and wants to be a musician but the drive he has compared to when he is well is less front and center. And when my son is feeling depressed he is not always good about using his time wisely so sometimes he might practice more but accomplish less because he is just not focusing his mind the way he is capable of when he is well. </p>

<p>Depression and mood disorders can have a lot of causes in the teen years, especially for girls. If there is any reason for you to believe that this is going on then it is important to follow through with a medical evaluation because sometimes the cause is something physical that if treated results in the teen feeling much better. Another reason that a child might suffer from depression or mood disorder in their teen years is if they have a hidden learning disability. Gifted children with LDs often find they hit walls in their teen years and this can result in frustration and stress which can trigger mood problems. And then there is always the risk that your child has suffered some trauma that they are hiding from you. That trauma can be bullying, sexual abuse or harassment, rejection or just the trauma of seeing peers who might be making poor choices. In those cases having a third party who they can talk to can be very useful.</p>

<p>I hope what I wrote does not feel intrusive. I am not saying that your daughter is depressed, but when I read your posts it reminded me of some of the struggles we had with our kids who are all doing well as young adults but who struggled in their teen years with depression and mood issues.</p>

14

<p>Really great advice from StacJip and Woodwinds and everyone else.</p>

<p>It is true that not all music rehearsals are equal. With pit bands, the musicians are on standby for long periods of time while the actors and director work out scenery, lines, and if a dress rehearsal, costume details. Meanwhile, the poor pit crew has to sit on standby and everything is out of their control. If your D has homework, evening plans, or a test coming up, this can feel like a waste of precious time and can stress her out. On top of that, if she is one of the more experienced musicians, she could also be very frustrated with the level of play with people she is being associated.</p>

<p>Keep listening to your D … if she truly wants to go the conservatory route, she will continue to face stress and situations where she has to rehearse with others. Hopefully 6 or 7 hour rehearsals are a once a year or once a semester type of thing, but regardless, your D will have to work out how she will sustain similar situations going forward.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

15

<p>Pardon the pun, but, pit bands are the pits. She is committed and it is nice that she is contributing, but in the future, maybe she should avoid a gig like this…</p>

<p>I think the best way to relax, dealing with a junior who loves music, is to keep all options open. There are many colleges with great music departments and extracurriculars. There are conservatories, and music schools affiliated with universities. There are double majors and double degrees, BA’s and BM’s…</p>

<p>She can apply to a few conservatories and a few colleges, including schools where she has both options available. She does not need to decide until she needs to decide. And changes continue through senior year. She should focus on what she really enjoys, and even explore new interests, if she wants. Too much focus on the future is hard for teens, but the culture demands it and perhaps music even more.</p>

<p>It does sound like she may have some things going on, either medical or emotional, which she might want to get checked out. Maybe an MD appointment (back: thyroid?) and a therapist, however briefly. There are some who specialize in musicians and artists. Clarifying issues in these realms can help clarify the decision about music.</p>

<p>Many of us have had kids who were a little emotionally sensitive or even volatile during high school. It is a hard time and there are many pressures. Just know that it doesn’t mean that things aren’t going to work out. Most of those kids end up thriving once settled at a school…Take care!</p>

16

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<p>This is a red flag for me. Is she in a safe place during these rehearsal hours?</p>

<p>And just because someone doesn’t like Interlochen, that doesn’t mean they are not destined for a music career. :slight_smile: D3 practices a ridiculous number of hours a day but she despises summer programs that tell her when to practice.</p>

17

<p>Pit orchestra practices can be protracted, boring, and the pit members can spend a lot of time sitting around while the tech crew futzes with lights or the actors are working on a rough section. I used to take a book into the pit on long rehearsal days. I did love the end result of playing for musicals, and actually consider the pit experience to be one of my favorites overall of all the musical activities I did in high school and college. But rehearsals can be long, especially in that last week before opening night.</p>

<p>If she couldn’t take a break due to having to guard her instrument, that is also going to add to the stress. Maybe lighten up a bit on that requirement… have her ask another pit member to keep an eye on it if they are not leaving, OR she could put it in the case and take it with her. </p>

<p>There is a certain emotional maturity that is required to be a member of a musical ensemble. You can really end up sitting around a lot while someone other part of the ensemble is working out their stuff. And you need some equilibrium when someone else keeps screwing up. And some grit if you keep screwing up. :frowning: Your daughter may not have this (yet). I suppose some people never develop it. Just because someone likes to practice alone on their instrument does not mean they have the temperment for a career as a player with others. </p>

<p>If your D is not sure about her choice, then maybe you are correct that a school where she has the opportunity to change her mind if she gets there and decides music is not her path is a good idea. Lawrence is a school that might fit – I have a sense that there is movement back and forth between the conservatory and non-conservatory side relatively easily (and a lot of students double major in music and something else there). Oberlin seems like a school that does NOT have this same fluidity. Good merit aid available as well if her stats are good.</p>

18

<p>My kid, who is (knock-on-wood) currently a very happy and (so far) successful music major, would absolutely HATE what your daughter had to do that day in that pit! He may well have walked out himself in high school, only his reaction would have been anger not tears! He probably would have stood up, said something rude like, “You know what? You people have to get your act together before you waste my time with crap like this!” and walked out. And then he would have come home screaming kind of ‘at me’ about how unprofessional and horrid it all was! And I would have been slightly horrified that he was so rude and unprofessional himself, particularly in comparison to all the other kids who were somehow putting up with it. And when I said as much, he would have been completely unapologetic and committed to his position for eternity. lol</p>

<p>And, in a way, he would have been right. In some regards. Technically. In that the orchestra is being taken advantage of, the director isn’t setting boundaries on the kids’ behalf, if not his own, and it WAS a waste of ‘his’ time. </p>

<p>How can I so accurately describe what my son would have done? Because although he was never in this same exact situation, he was in several situations like it. And try as I might, as the people-pleasing, rule-abiding person I can sometimes be, I usually cannot get him to see the value in politely sticking around and sucking it up like everybody else somehow manages to do. </p>

<p>My son also would not have liked Interlochen in high school. </p>

<p>For some kids, the social aspects of pit rehearsals and summer programs hold more draw than they do for this son – and possibly for your daughter. My son is all about getting down to business and working hard when he’s ‘at work.’ He likes to keep play and work separate and he can’t stand people wasting his time! He likes doing things with friends, but that doesn’t include silently sitting around in a slow-moving, poorly planned rehearsal. He has always been like that. The good news is, if he’s selective about what he signs up for as a young adult, he can usually avoid the problem. </p>

<p>The bad news is, as a music major, he can’t always avoid it. To this day, he’ll sometimes call a spade a spade over issues like that and, more politely and with less emotion than in the past, get up and walk out!! And oftentimes, that gets the ball rolling for some well-needed change for everybody! Which simply amazes me. He’s never gotten in trouble for it–in fact, supporters of all ages and roles tend to come out of the woodwork on his side when he does something like that! The fact is, his point is typically correct – as was your daughter’s. Who knows why she’s intolerant of the circumstances while everybody else manages to tolerate them. They’re clearly bad, annoying circumstances that, likely, none of us would want to tolerate either!</p>

<p>Now that he’s older and almost done with his undergrad, my son still doesn’t particularly like rehearsals except when he’s actually being put to good use. But unless there’s a flagrant, ridiculous, repeated abuse of the performers’ time, he tolerates and understands that this is just one of the less desirable aspects of his chosen field. He is very passionate about the field itself. </p>

<p>Besides, as musicians work their way up to bigger and better things, their gigs become more and more professional and better-run, I think. </p>

<p>Maybe I’m relating too much to your D’s problem and reading too much into it, based on my experience with my own son. But in his case, college and the gigs he accepts are far more professionally run than they were in high school; he’s surrounded by much better musicians who are also interested in putting their noses to the grind stone and finishing the work so they can get to the ‘play’; the things he does are led by more professional people who are on tighter schedules themselves; and there are so many aspects of his chosen field that he all-out loves, that long, boring rehearsals that include lots of idle time are seen as one small downside of a great profession. </p>

<p>It is still true that most of his peers don’t seem to mind the wasted, idle time as much as he does. He marvels as to why. </p>

<p>But he tells me ALL the time that he’s so glad he chose music for his major. There’s nothing else he’d rather be doing. </p>

<p>Bottom line: I don’t know your daughter, but if she’s good on her instrument, otherwise responsible and passionate about her playing, and can’t see herself majoring in anything else, I don’t personally see why she would necessarily have to rule out being a music major. College and the profession won’t be like high school --or like Interlochen.</p>

19

<p>I would be really, really careful about ruling out music at this point as a possible future vocation/avocation, if she feels she has the passion, then it needs to work itself out. It is great she is a junior, she still has time to think about what she wants to do.</p>

<p>Pit orchestras can be as others say the pits, I wasn’t much of a musician and I did 1 or 2 in high school, and it could be problematic. High school musicals are often the next best thing to complete chaos, things don’t happen when they are supposed to, and a lot of it was dead space. Plus the rehearsals and such can take time away from other things she thinks she needs to do, like individual practicing. More importantly, rehearsals like that are tiring, they are long, drawn out, and most teens already are sleep deprived with going to school, activities and homework. I would not use pit orchestra as a divining rod for future musical activity, it is just too unique to use that way IMO. </p>

<p>Yes, as musicians, especially student musicians, you can face situations as my son has, where he has been in chamber groups for example that didn’t work very well,been in groups where they placed people by age (in a chamber group in a summer festival, where 1 other kid was serious, the other two would rather spend time shopping then rehearsing…), it does happen, but the grind of pit band is its own unique hell. I actually enjoyed doing it, but it isn’t a good indicator. I would strongly, strongly recommend your D not do pit band next year of she is planning on trying for music schools, she is going to need all the time she can get for her own practice, plus she will be stressing about finishing senior year, and I can almost bet that the rehearsal schedule or performance schedule will fall right on audition dates (My S just went through that, he got an audition date for a school, that was on the same day as a mandatory rehearsal for the orchestra he is in as a principal for a performance the next day and it was in a different city…he was able to reschedule the audition, but it isn’t always so easy). </p>

<p>Likewise, I wouldn’t be so concerned about her not being happy about Interlochen. It isn’t that it isn’t a good program, it could be that the way they do things didn’t jell with her. My S didn’t want to do Interlochen after talking to friends of his who did it, he felt it was too summer camp and too regimented for what he wanted <em>shrug</em>. </p>

<p>The other thing is that if your D decides to go into music that the kind of experience she has had in pit orchestra will happen less and less. While you do a lot of music in a conservatory program, there just isn’t time to waste students time sitting around for 8 hours, and at a conservatory level rehearsals are going to be very different for orchestra, the kids, unlike in high school, are expected to come in prepared and there for the most part won’t be the grinding rehearsals that happen in high school, where kids aren’t prepared and such (it can happen, of course, but it is relatively rare). The conductors know how to conduct rehearsals and it is about polishing, not the mechanics, and the same with other ensemble performances like chamber. My S has been lucky, he had the kind of frustration you are describing with pit band, but he was fortunate to be in a really high level youth orchestra and then in the pre college program he has been in, and it is very different with them, they both demanded a lot from the kids in it, so they didn’t waste much time.</p>

<p>I think the real question I have is how is she with her own practicing? Is she willing to consistently practice her own stuff, putting in the hours? There is no magic number, but if she isn’t willing/able to put in at least 3-4 hours on her viola on a typical day (and obviously that ebbs and flows, if she is exhausted one day, if she is sick, she may not practice much if at all, other days she may go at it like gangbusters). If she can’t motivate herself to practice, that to me would be a red flag, if she is practicing an hour a day, or she goes off to practice and a lot of the time it is silent, then that could be a red flag. </p>

<p>One hint with practicing that my son swears by (he is a violinist, not violist) and that is don’t try and practice straight through, do it in 20 minute chunks (or what works for her), take a 10 minute break (can look at the music, get something to drink, look at her phone, whatever), that if he tried playing straight through he would have physical problems, those breaks allows his muscles to relax and to be refreshed to keep going…your D may be different, maybe she would do 35 playing, 5 taking a break…</p>

<p>I worry a little about her having back problems, with a string player that could be a sign that there is something wrong with her setup, that maybe she is in a bad position, or hunched over or something. I agree with others, worth getting checked out, I have had back problems and my family doctor is an Osteopath, and he has helped do some neat stuff to fix a bad back. </p>

<p>I also will add frustrations are common, like she is experiencing now. My S’s auditions are rapidly approaching, and he has been going at it hot and heavy (I mean a lot more then his usual intense pace) for the past almost year or so, and we see the frustrations, the doubts, the worries, so it comes with the territory, and you add that to the hormonal and other angst induced by being a teenager, and it can be difficult.</p>

<p>Hopefully this helped, I agree with what others have said, I wouldn’t preclude going into music from what you are talking about, but it is also wise to think of alternatives., too, backup plans are never bad things. Note that if she does decide to go to conservatory, it isn’t a life sentence that all she can do is music, conservatory graduates often end up doing something else but music as a career, and these days, when a lot of people go on for graduate degrees, the conservatory degree can act as a stepping stone to grad school in a variety of fields, it is a bachelor’s degree:)…or even into an entry level job someplace, people don’t know a lot about music, but even relatively musically illiterate people know how much work and dedication it takes to get into a good music program and to get a degree there, and those are attributes employers look for:)</p>

20

<p>1) I agree that I would not rule out music as a major unless your D has indicated that she would rather pursue another path.</p>

<p>2) Summer programs are not for everyone and should not be taken as an indication of lack of passion as an artist.</p>

<p>3) As others have suggested… are you concerned that she may be dealing with depression or other things? </p>

<p>3) While I personally feel that a 6 hour pit rehearsal is a bit much… students (and professionals) who play in a pit for a musical need to realize that there will likely be some siting around while some things are worked out, and this does not mean that these theatre people “do not have their act together.” A technical/ dress rehearsal is a practice session for the production as a whole, and we all know that sometimes practice sessions require repetition, decision making,and can get stalled… imagine if as a solo instrumentalist you had to collaborate with 30+ people to make a decision on what to do with a trouble spot in a particular piece. Six hours seems long to me (particularly without a break!), but sometimes 4 - 4.5 hours might be needed… not playing the whole time, and certainly with breaks. Also if there are short brush-ups before performances those have to be completed before 1/2 hour when the house opens… so pit musicians may be called at 6:45 to play from 7 - 7:30 with a break from 7:30 - 8, before playing a 3 hour show. Playing in the pit of a musical or opera is not for all musicians… although I have many high level musician friends who make a lot of money playing in pits as regulars or subs. I guess it is important to identify what kind of experiences in which you are interested in pursuing as a musician. </p>

<p>All the best to D on this path!</p>