<p>no it is not fair but, such is life.
it is not fair I come home from work way after it is dark out and have to stop at the supermarket and wait in line behind people with expensive I phone’s , professional done nails …who pay with food stamps and WIC checks. I think hey I support these folks , maybe I should be able to get ahead of them in line or maybe I should be able to pay less tax and keep more of my own money , so I can work a couple hours less a day. but, it is not how as of 2012 our society is set up. I have nothing against helping people to an extent but, kids in college who can not afford it…should may be go part time or have a chance to work off the debt. I also have no problem with schools giving out lots of merit aid to attract better students! (so maybe I pick and choose what is ok, that is my right )</p>
<p>MSNDIS – I don’t blame you. If I witnessed the kind of abuse of the system that you see with your friend’s sister’s family, I’d resent it too. We don’t have pay TV, we have cheap cell phones, we shop at thrift stores, and we drive our cars until they fall apart – all so we can save money for our children’s college and our retirement. To see other living it up, then their daughter (I’ll call her “Ashton”) getting any kind of need-based aid, grates on me in a big way.</p>
<p>However, I have to take a deep breath and think about how a lot of people are struggling to get by and that those people genuinely need financial help so that their children can go to college. “Maria” is a young woman I know whose family is poor and lives in a house that is not much more than a shack. Her parents are from Mexico (and I assume are here legally, although I’m not sure). Her father is a farm worker and her mother is a house cleaner. They have instilled a strong work ethic and respect for education into their children. Maria is now at a state university, with lots of financial aid, including work-study. She is very bright and wants to be a pediatrician.</p>
<p>I would be happy to know that part of my child’s tuition was going to help Maria get through college. She has an opportunity that she probably would not otherwise have had, and one day she will probably be able to help her parents out of poverty. By subsidizing her education, and the education of so many others like Maria, the state is making a good economic decision.</p>
<p>I think there are probably many more Marias than Ashtons. Now, if we could just find a way to get the Ashtons off the dole. :)</p>
<p>*I did put $100,000 in assets, so that may have changed the financial need calculation. Note that BGO says that the student must “Demonstrate income below $80,000 with financial need, as determined for federal need-based aid program”, so perhaps assets with low income may produce that result.
*</p>
<p>I wouldn’t put that much in non-retirement, non-equity assets. Too many families earning under $80k per year do NOT have that much in unprotected assets.</p>
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<p>(Replying to #77) No need to apologize – your comments made a lot of sense to me.</p>
<p>A sociology professor at Centre College publishes a blog called the ‘Gruntled Center’. He basically says that many Americans expect our policies to be perfect. The reality is that, our policies really just need to be ‘good enough’. </p>
<p>I think this applies to financial aid policies. Is it optimal? Probably not, see above about some abuse of the system. But it does a pretty darn good job opening up education to many. Good enough and tolerable for me.</p>
<p>"A centrist wants to promote what is best for society, tolerate what is good enough, and prevent what is harmful. "</p>
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<p>The choices for higher education in the United States is mind-boggling
so you do get to pick and choose which school you want so that you can
contribute the least towards aid for other students. The situation, of
course is more complicated than that because there are some benefits
from alumni contributions, appreciation in land values and intangibles
that make a college more than the sum of its parts. Or tuition and
fees.</p>
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<p>I have to live with my conscience. I don’t have to live with the
conscience of your friend’s sister’s husband’s conscience. I try very
hard to play by the rules and the benefit is peace of mind. Do I pay
more for some things? Sure. But we try to run our lives efficiently
and with sufficient planning so that things like tuition increases
aren’t a big problem.</p>
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<p>We scrimped and saved and filled out the FAFSA and the EFC was double
the cost of a private university. So we didn’t fill out any more FAFSA
forms. We only got a used bed at home this past year so that we don’t
have to sleep on the floor as much as we used to. And we just replaced
our previous car with 250K miles. The previous car had 186 and the car
before that 225K.</p>
<p>Again, the benefit in having savings is that you can deal with
emergencies in your household, help others out and have some measure
of peace of mind in that your kids have some choice in where they can
go. Your kids get some peace of mind knowing that there’s a cushion of
savings that give them more options and options in dealing with
problems.</p>
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<p>These are all fine options. You do what you reasonably can with your
budget. If the money isn’t there, then don’t spend it. I went to
college for a year and then went into the workforce and got my degrees
later in life. It gave me a chance to start a business and garner a
lot of experiences that were useful later in life. You can always go
to school. You can’t always get a job.</p>
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<p>The economy has been tough on a lot of people but people adjust and
adapt and work through the changed environment. Your state of mind is
what you determine it to be. You can rail against the system or try
to figure out the best plan and how to execute on it.</p>
<p>I can tell you that things are a lot better on the other side when they
have graduated and are out in the working world.</p>
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<p>~ ></p>
<p>“So, I apologize for anyone I may have offended but I honestly cannot afford to help pay for others’ college tuition.”</p>
<p>On the off-chance all the discussion above hasn’t sunk in … YOU ARE A TAKER TOO. Basing your argument on the university budget? Do you think the buildings and grounds of simply appeared the day you stepped on campus? Or that faculty and staff didn’t spend considerable time and money preparing themselves for the positions they hold. Or that (as Barrons points out) endowments that support your attendance just materialized from nowhere?</p>
<p>I happen to agree that the current system is awkward and would benefit from change. But when persons of means begin suggesting that THEY are the financially maligned … well I just gotta say there are some major voids in the education those persons received.</p>
<p>MSNDIS - send your younger daughter next year. Find the money, because in terms of family finances, you are better off with 2 in school at the same time. Family contribution should be split between the two students, so while your costs for the year will go up, it will end up costing more if there is no overlap.</p>
<p>That brings us to the part of the system that bothers me. I have 3 children, spaced 7 years apart. We will have one year with 2 in college. Because we chose to space our children 3 anr 4 years apart, to make raising them more affordable, we are penalized. Had our children been born 3 years in a row, we would be paying tuition bills for 6 years total. Even if they go to schools that don’t meet full need, those 6 years of tuition would still be far less than the 11 years we face. Does that mean we will be subsidizing all the families that chose to overlap their kids?</p>
<p>I understand some of the resentment, and even feel some of it myself. It is not just families that “hide” their income who get a break. I wouldn’t trade our income for that of lower-income families, but I do see how some families milk the system. There are families on public assistance who drive nice cars, have 47" televisions, and go on vacations, and I do wish that would stop. I do think their priorities are messed up, but I also know that I am raising my kids differently. My resentment won’t change anything, so why bother? Instead, I will help my children to take advantage of everything that is offered to them. Life has never been fair, and I don’t know why anyone expects it to suddenly become fair now.</p>
<p>We have choices to make, and have already made some. D is not applying to our state flagship, because it costs too much. There is not much merit money, and we would qualify for little need-based aid according to their formulas. Why apply there when private colleges will end up costing less? We each need to find our own comfort level. If we are not comfortable with “subsidizing” other students, we need to ensure that our children understand where they fit in the order of things, and help them do what they can to improve their own position.</p>
<p>CTScoutmom, That’s the one policy I’ve never gotten either. I have 2 kids, 4 grades apart, so no overlap. Full pay for 8 straight years at public schools. But, they’ve gotten good educations so,in the end, it’s all good.</p>
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<p>My sister-in-law made about $30K (Singapore so more like $22K US) in
her previous career and makes less than that now. She has about $700K
in financial assets. Savings and investment is ingrained in certain
cultures.</p>
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<p>My son went to a school in a city where median household income is
about $38,000. The school does more to stretch a buck than any other
that I’ve seen. Physical plant and equipment is pretty bad but you
don’t have to have the best to get a good education. It’s easier to
spend or donate to a place that you know is efficient with resources.</p>
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<p>This is a problem in some states where people that are employed manage
to get EBT cards or families manage to get multiple cards. The tax
pool is huge so there’s some amount of theft encouraged with systems
that give things away for free. There’s slack in any kind of system.
What you can do is to be part of the process that changes it or just
live within the system so that your conscience is clear.</p>
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<p>This is similar to other bubbles we’ve seen - the internet bubble and
the housing bubble. If you make easy money available, it has to go
somewhere. In the past, the rewards of the loan made sense. In our
current economy, the rewards for the cost are being questioned.</p>
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<p>That’s basic economics. Decrease demand because people wouldn’t be
able to afford the product without supports.</p>
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<p>It’s an interesting experiment but I have my doubts that it will make
a material impact as I think that only a relatively small number of
students want this sort of thing.</p>
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<p>The current model does still work for a lot of people.</p>
<h1>89–“My resentment won’t change anything, so why bother? Instead, I will help my children to take advantage of everything that is offered to them.”</h1>
<p>That’s one of this country’s problems in a nutshell.</p>
<p>Re: #77</p>
<p>Among those getting Pell grants, how many people are there effectively gaming the system like your examples, compared to those who are from genuinely low income and wealth families (i.e. not a lot of income or wealth “hidden” in a small business, offshore accounts, or anything like that)?</p>
<p>^^ I think there’s been a pretty large part of the population which has prided itself on self reliance, depending on family, depending on friends and avoiding dependence on what is seen as government handouts. However, the scales have been tipping. As the ardently self reliant group sees more of their country/city/neighbors happily standing in line with WIC/Food stamps etc. they are reconsidering their views. Maybe pulling the wagon when more and more folks are hopping on for a ride is starting to look less virtuous and more like self abuse. With a little bit of finagling the system will let the pullers become riders…and frankly…why not. It might be that the wagon needs to come to a stand still…or start rolling backwards toward the cliff before true changes become possible.</p>
<p>UCB: Arguably no one is gaming the system…they are all playing by the rules. The rules allow for family businesses to be shelters as far as the FAFSA goes. It’s all quite legal, above board and it would be silly for those that ‘can get the PELL’ to not take it. OR for that matter, grants and subsidized loans. </p>
<p>And as another posters has stated…resentment is growing…so if I were a betting kinda gal…I’d bet there will be more and more of this type of accounting taking place. At which point I’m sure some type of ‘fix’ will be put into place and those with the time, energy and desire…will find a work around to that also.</p>
<p>Aren’t we all obliged to to the best we can by our own children?</p>
<h1>94 Nice post!</h1>
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<p>Such thinking appears to be more common in right-leaning areas. However, the right-leaning states generally tend to be “takers” of national government spending relative to the taxes they contribute to the national government, while the more left-leaning states tend to be the “givers”.</p>
<p>[Federal</a> Taxes Paid vs. Federal Spending Received by State, 1981-2005 | Tax Foundation](<a href=“http://taxfoundation.org/article/federal-taxes-paid-vs-federal-spending-received-state-1981-2005]Federal”>http://taxfoundation.org/article/federal-taxes-paid-vs-federal-spending-received-state-1981-2005)</p>
<p>"Among those getting Pell grants, how many people are there effectively gaming the system like your examples, compared to those who are from genuinely low income and wealth families (i.e. not a lot of income or wealth “hidden” in a small business, offshore accounts, or anything like that)? "</p>
<p>Hello. I am a Nigerian Prince who moved to America to educate my children. Unfortunately I was unable to bring any of my money to America, so my children are at Yale and Princeton on full scholarship. I don’t wish to take advantage of my adopted home in this way. The money in Nigeria would pay for my children’s college many times over. If someone could just advance me $50,000 I would be able to get the necessary approvals to move my money to America. I would be willing to repay 400,000 to anyone who could advance me the 50,000. Thank you.</p>
<p>
I just have to note that rich people are legally entitled to spend their money on this if they want to. I’m never sure what people mean when they use “entitled” in this way–perhaps they mean cosmically entitled.</p>
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If you are so hard up, how do you know you won’t qualify for some aid? Not necessarily Pell, but possibly something?</p>
<p>It’s fine, for you, that you have decided to make these “sacrifices” but some of us find that we have other priorities in life outside of just paying for college. And we spend money on those priorities. It fries me when people who claim to have sacrificed to the point where they are practically surviving by eating rotten food from dumpsters then criticize others for not doing likewise. Where does it say that there is only one acceptable set of priorities?</p>
<p>Hunt,
I think the “they” in that post refers to the child/student. </p>
<p>Paying parents often hold the “power of the purse” over their offsprings’ college behavior. Other than perhaps maintaining a minimum gpa, FA students may enjoy much more autonomy in this regard.</p>