"Should the Obama Generation Drop Out?" (New York Times)

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Yes, and what a resounding success the tracking has been thus far. Basically, we have two tracks: College or good luck, sucker!

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Or we could just go with other first world school systems, that have better tracking......and better academic achievement!</p>

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Because you certainly need to be within some statistical interval to pick strawberries.

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Do you think it's better, on average, to let dumber or smarter people into the US?</p>

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And now we come to the million dollar question: is it successful? I sure don't know that answer. I can assume that the ASVAB is moderately successful at doing, well, something. I just don't know that it's successful at producing a better military.

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I would assume that the army knows a little bit about soldiering. They probably know a bit more about it than you or I.</p>

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Mr. Payne, This not new to me. Not the topic, not Jensen, not the article. Which is why, for example, the fact that this article "hardly mentions" race is not material. I've read enough that Jensen has written to know who he is and what his personal bias is.</p>

<p>If you want to argue that things such as source of funding or long standing bias do not matter, that's a different discussion entirely. But to attempt to place Jensen above all of that is just silly and so, yes, I'm doing the impossible and I can even do it in one line.</p>

<p>Just to be clear, I'm not claiming that those on the other side of this debate are bias free. I'm simply stating that to proclaim Jensen the one, true source that all should abide by on this issue is, well, ridiculous.

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You did not respond to a single thing. I'd be fine with this gigantic ad hominem attack if you actually said something of substance following it, but you did not.</p>

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Fight fire with fire, as they say.

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<p>Sorry, but it doesn't work this way. Fallacious reasoning is fallacious reasoning no matter what. </p>

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And even with this, it's still predictive.

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<p>No, it's not. We don't know that, and that's the point. There is a TON of endogeneity in the whole "IQ versus success" debate that obscures a great deal of the actual variation. That's the thing that Jensen and the rest of the "IQ is predictive" crew haven't really grasped. Sowell's example, more than anything demonstrates that IQ is, in and of itself, subject to collection bias-- this will then bias its predictive ability in any classical statistical model.</p>

<p>Let me make this clearer: even if you do, by some statistical trick, have a p < .05, you still have a model that is essentially meaningless if you are pinning a lot of the variation on this one variable. </p>

<p>It is therefore NOT predictive.</p>

<p>I don't know how much clearer I can get about the statistics.</p>

<p>As for your response about Gould, you really didn't say much. You seem to believe that Jensen is somehow the "greater scholar" when that's of course absurd. Gould and Jensen came from different fields and are therefore biased by their own paradigms. That doesn't mean, however, that what Gould says, even though it differs from what Jensen says, is necessarily wrong within its own context. It's possible, interestingly enough, that IQ is predictive, but that it is not largely a racially determined trait. Unfortunately, people get too caught up in the idea that ALL of one person's ideas have to be right-- they don't, of course.</p>

<p>Regarding Japanese academic achievement (something I personally have experience with, having been a teacher of sorts in Japan), I daresay that most Americans have a terribly biased and inaccurate view of Japanese academic abilities. While it is true that Japanese primary and secondary schools were exceptional up until about the 90s or so (they have since then languished a fair bit by even Japanese accounts), they were incredibly good at teaching skills that involve rote learning (math, foundations of science, kanji, etc.) Japanese students, by my account-- and by many contemporary Japanese educators-- fall far behind their Western counterparts when it comes to "creative thinking." This, of course, is one reason why American universities are still exceptional: they are fonts of creative thought. There are, even today, few people in Japan who could match a Feynman, a Greene, a Stiglitz, etc. Even in literature, most of the great contemporary and even past Japanese authors were those who, shall we say, were not very "Nihonjin." </p>

<p>As far as the notion of letting the smart vs. stupid in the US, I think that the primary goal should be to let in people who will be productive and an asset to the country. I mean, let's be fair here: a century ago people thought the Irish were intellectual halfwits. Do you suppose that distinction would still hold today in the public discourse?</p>

<p>Finally:</p>

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I would assume that the army knows a little bit about soldiering. They probably know a bit more about it than you or I.

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<p>Perhaps, but then again the military, like any other organized body, is just as prone to silliness. I mean, the federal government still believes that the polygraph test is meaningful in some way. So much that they end the careers of thousands of eager and qualified individuals at the hands of 6-weeks trained voodoo artists. Who's to say that the ASVAB hasn't simply ingrained itself enough to be subject to "bureaucratic momentum," so to speak?</p>

<p>UCLAri, Thank you for continuing on with the voice of reasons. Once someone becomes defensive about Jensen, I'm out.</p>

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UCLAri, Thank you for continuing on with the voice of reasons. Once someone becomes defensive about Jensen, I'm out.

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<p>Once someone vociferously defends Arthur Jensen, you know exactly what they think of black people...:rolleyes: Then, it's hardly worth engaging them in discussion.</p>

<p>^</p>

<p>Isn't that just guilt by association?</p>

<p>The ad-hominem comments are kind of pointless because lots of people with defensible ideas also have wrong ideas. But if you really want to look to a person who is highly endorsed for his ideas on the subject of IQ testing and what it means, look to James R. Flynn, author of What Is Intelligence? </p>

<p>Amazon.com:</a> What Is Intelligence?: Beyond the Flynn Effect: James R. Flynn: Books </p>

<p>Flynn began his career of writing on IQ testing issues by strenuously disagreeing with Arthur Jensen on many issues. Jensen has had to change his mind on several of those issues, and by 1984 Jensen wrote, "Now and then I am asked . . . who, in my opinion, are the most respectable critics of my position on the race-IQ issue? The name James R. Flynn is by far the first that comes to mind." </p>

<p>Arthur</a> Jensen, Consensus and ... - Google Book Search </p>

<p>Flynn's new book </p>

<p>Amazon.com:</a> What Is Intelligence?: Beyond the Flynn Effect: James R. Flynn: Books </p>

<p>is praised by eminent scholars on intelligence such as N. J. Mackintosh (who, in my opinion, is the author of the best previously published book on IQ and human intelligence), Ian Deary, Robert J. Sternberg, Stephen J. Ceci, Sir Michael Rutter, and Steven Pinker. It is also praised by best-selling authors on social policy such as Malcolm Gladwell and, yes, Charles Murray.</p>

<p>tokenadult,</p>

<p>Great, now I have more books to add to my reading list.</p>

<p>Thanks a lot... Pfft.</p>

<p>Seriously though, just reading the few pages that Google will let me, as well as the wiki article on him, suggests to me that a lot of the hullabaloo over IQ is rooted in poor statistical methodology.</p>

<p>Not that I'm surprised.</p>

<p>Okay, so I don't have time to read this entire thread, but I'm just wondering how in the world IQ could have anything to do with race when it's been scientifically proven, over and over again, that race is a completely man-made construct?</p>

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I'm just wondering how in the world IQ could have anything to do with race when it's been scientifically proven, over and over again, that race is a completely man-made construct?

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<p>That's a very important question too. </p>

<p>Yes, there is nothing about "race" as such that determines IQ scores (note that I say "IQ scores" rather than "intelligence," because IQ scores are but a poor proxy for intelligence). There couldn't be any such thing, because of the way human genetics works. James R. Flynn has noted that the difference in mean IQ scores between groups of "black" test-takers and "white" test-takers in the United States has been narrowing over time. Meanwhile, IQ test scores in general have been increasing over time, so that today's black test-takers, on average, score as did white test-takers just a generation or so ago. EVERYONE should remember that individuals show up to take IQ tests, and an individual's IQ test score can be as high or as low as the scoring scale allows. There are plenty of smart black people in the world, including plenty of smart black people who notice how much psychological research has gone on from the 1980s into this new century with new ideas and new concepts derived from newly discovered or newly analyzed data, such as the data Flynn found and analyzed.</p>

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<p>Because IQ is also a completely man-made construct.</p>

<p>Both are imperfect descriptions of underlying biological characterisitcs that are modified by social factors.</p>

<p>Geek_son here.
In my humble opinion as a high school senior, the IQ test is biased. I believe that the person who developed the test will get a perfect score on his test, but there is a possibility that he will score much lower on another test written by a person of the same intelligence level.
As far as I can tell, this topic has degraded to arguments based on information which neither side has disclosed (I am in no way stating that the claims of either side are baseless.).
Finally, I find the NYT article puzzling. Is he proposing a "literacy" test for job applicants? That didn't seem to work very well back in the late 1800's when voters could be easily denied their right to vote by someone who didn't like them (or their race for that matter: this was used as a form of discrimination). I agree that a person should be rewarded based on his skills, but without some proof of that (namely, a degree from a credible institution) it seems difficult to attain a non-judgmental evaluation of the person's skills.
This is a highly interesting and educational topic; I'd like that to continue.</p>

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I agree that a person should be rewarded based on his skills, but without some proof of that (namely, a degree from a credible institution) it seems difficult to attain a non-judgmental evaluation of the person's skills.

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<p>There are a LOT of ways to demonstrate work-related skills other than obtaining a college degree, which was the cited author's main point.</p>

<p>It is important to note that we are dealing with two related issues here: the science of psychometrics and the politics of psychometrics. After seeing how Kant was able to "dissect" St. Anselm's proof, I thought I could do the same with Jensen and promptly ran into a statistical brick wall. Some years later, I met another person who tried the same and failed. This guy has a PHD in statistics.</p>

<p>My sense is that most people who challenge him not because his science is bad, but that he is searching for answers nobody wants to know. I learned long ago that you do not challenge the status quo, at least not if you want an easy ride in life. What I don't understand is why Jensen not take the other side of the "trade". He could have been a giant in psychology.</p>

<p>Tokenadult, here is a link for you. It goes a long way in answering Flynn's criticism.</p>

<p>Cato</a> Unbound Blog Archive Flynn, Ceci, and Turkheimer on Race and Intelligence: Opening Moves</p>

<p>there are actually some genetic differences
Dry earwax? It's genetic</p>

<p>@ emeraldkity4: </p>

<p>I'm familiar with the variants of human earwax (both are represented in my immediate family), but that kind of Mendelian pattern of inheritance is not what the IQ researchers are talking about, and is not an example of a racial marker (because there isn't any such thing as a genetic racial marker). </p>

<p>@ Canuckguy: Thanks for yet another link to an article by Gottfredson that is less tedious to read than most of her articles, but she still has to do the affirmative work of proving what she wants to prove, and I don't think that she has the genetic facts on her site. Years ago when I used to join debates on this issue on Usenet, one of the champions in the debates was a professor of genetics who pointed out how little the psychologists who supposed they could find racial differences ever pointed to genetic evidence. Gottfredson's article has that same defect.</p>

<p>*but that kind of Mendelian pattern of inheritance is not what the IQ researchers are talking about,[ t/i]</p>

<p>oh yes I realize- I just wanted to mention that the ear wax thing is the only difference I have ever heard mentioned.( by reliable sources)</p>

<p>emeraldkity4,</p>

<p>I've seen papers, mostly done by doctors (who are usually terrible at stats), that try to show racial differences. I think the only one I've seen by an anthropologist that was interesting was something about bone and tooth structure. Apparently East Asians tend to have "scoop shaped" incisors? I forget exactly what it was.</p>

<p>This discussion sure has taken a large turn since page one. So, when do we get back on topic and off of the IQ tangent?</p>

<p>well we could discuss as how the " Obama" generation may well have to drop out as public university tuition is predicted to rise by double digits- but I think that is too depressing for this evening-</p>