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<p>Tell that to the kids who drop out and have no job opportunities due to lack of credentials</p>
<p>With a two tier system, what happens to the person who went the vocational route but decided later to go to college and do something else? I know someone who was a beautician for years and then decided to work her way through college. She’s a special ed teacher now. If she’d gotten a ‘lesser’ high school diploma, how would that work? Our colleges have many non-traditional students these days.</p>
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<p>See post #18</p>
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<p>Later like when? Like when they’ve turned 18 and have had to move out and start working full time to pay bills? I think it’s doing kids a disservice to make it too easy for them to put themselves into that situation, where they want to go to school but have lost their chance to go when it was not quite so difficult. At 16/17, I’m not sure that most kids are mature enough to make that decision with eyes wide open to what sacrifices they are making if they do ever decide college is for them. </p>
<p>How many teenagers do we encounter in a year who pay out the nose to major in english at expensive schools they can’t afford, justifying it with some imaginary thinking about how they’ll make ends meet when those loans go into repayment? Do you think there are not kids who think, “psht, I don’t need to go to college, I’ll be an entrepreneur!” and fall flat on their face just the same way? I don’t think leaving these kids without the necessary preparation to have OPTIONS when they are mature enough to actually make use of them is a good idea.</p>
<p>I understand the idea in theory and I think it could be a good change to make in the educational system, but there are a lot of pitfalls that would need to be considered. I also don’t know if I accept the idea that 12th grade is only beneficial for college bound kids, either, and I’m not sure who TRULY benefits from the bar being lowered to just accommodate drop outs. I don’t think it’s a bad thing that if you want that credential you have to actually see the commitment through to the end-- at that point you’ve been in school 11 years, what’s one more. Maybe it’s different elsewhere but around here 12 grade is not designed to only be for college bound kids, it’s there for a reason.</p>
<p>Yes, but that method means increased costs and time to accomplish that goal. Why not provide those basics while the education is free? It seems like the more barriers in place, the less likely people will do it.</p>
<p>My opinion, as a student who was about to quit college after three years and go for carpentry, is that we should leave the high school curriculum the way it is. Do you have any idea how poor the English that is coming out of these kids’ mouths nowadays? What’s even worse is their writing! They need those four years of English, and I don’t think English classes teach enough anymore. I think the US has given up on writing, grammar, and rhetoric at the high school level.</p>
<p>Furthermore, I understand that future vocational students won’t need upper-level mathematics. However, it’s not the material that they’re learning, but rather the analytical and critical thinking skills they develop that are important. If no one ever needed to take math beyond the 6th grade, I think many people would lack logic and rationale. In addition (this part is just a rant), do you know how many students nowadays, including students born probably from the late 80s to the present, rely on a calculator? They will enter 3x9 into a calculator. And it isn’t a matter of doing it quicker for them; it’s because they don’t know the answer, even if given 10 seconds or so. Their response? I quote, “that’s why the calculator was invented!”</p>
<p>Lastly, I think the US should adopt a similar HS plan to that in Taiwan. I don’t know if it exists elsewhere, but this is what I was told: students at transitioning level of middle to high school level will be asked what they want to do as their profession. The high school then gives them a track dependent on their decision. For example, if the student says they want to do graphic design as their career, they will take, in addition to the basic requirements, graphic design courses. It’s almost like what we have in college, but in a high school style. By the time they graduate, they are better prepared for their next level of education, and may begin at a higher level.</p>
<p>I don’t know if they accommodate for those who wish to be an electrician or car mechanic, for example, but I’m sure the state would allow for it. States are spending five to six digit numbers on technology per school (white boards, smart boards, computers). What ends up being done with these? PowerPoints and video clips. I know that’s not the entire story, but that’s what most of the teachers I’ve seen do with the technology. Surely they can afford a piece of a car engine, some circuitry, and building materials for those prospective carpenters.</p>
<p>What I see now is that a lot of kids now drop out and are totally SOL with a credential. One additional year of schooling may not see like a lot to an adult, but in dog years…</p>
<p>What is wrong w acknowledging that some kids are either not cut out for college EVER, or some kids may get more out of college is they take some gap years. The present one-size-fits all 12-year HS stint isn’t working for everyone.</p>
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<p>Let’s face it, the U.S. is not the same as Taiwan culturally. There is not that same universal reverence for academic achievement and a Tiger Mom around every corner to make kids perform in school.</p>
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<p>You are saying that they are currently sitting through 4 years of English classes, yet cannot communicate effectively? But that we should keep on doing the same thing?</p>
<p>My thought is that it would be far better for kids who have little or no academic aptitude or interest to have 2 years of EXCELLENT preparation focused on real-world tasks such as writing a clear business letter, reading a contract, writing a proposal, reading and ANALYZING articles in newspapers and magazines, writing a letter to the editor, and so forth.</p>
<p>As an English major in undergrad and grad school, I obviously value literature tremendously. It makes me sad to think that people have little or no interest in it. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink</p>
<p>How many kids entering high school have a clue as to what they want to do with their lives? Even those who think they know will likely change their minds a few times. </p>
<p>The thing that drives me nuts is the effect the increased competition has had on expectations of average hogh school students. If you’re going to a good but not great college and majoring in a non-STEM area, why would it be expected that you took calculus and physics? Some kids just can’t do that level of work, and if they don’t plan on being an engineer, financial analyst, doctor, etc, they don’t need to. I don’t think it makes you a better copywriter or kindergarten teacher, for example, if you take physics. Also, the accreditation expectations are way beyond what is really needed. Why does a physical therapist need at minimum a Masters and more likely a PhD? Why do more and more nurses need a Masters? And elementary school teachers?</p>
<p>Our school system has a very strong vocational program in this area. Several districts are tied together for voc and there are offerings in:
Accounting / Finance, Drafting and Design, Alternative Energy Technology, EMT and Criminal Justice, Architectural Drafting and CAD, Engineering Drafting and CAD, Auto Body / Collision Repair, Furniture and Cabinet Making, Auto Services Technology Graphic Communications, Aviation Technology, Health Sciences Occupations, Business Services and Technology,Heating/Ventilation/Cooling, Child Care Services, Hospitality / Culinary Arts, Construction Trades, Intro to Education, Cosmetology, Marketing, Digital Media/Video Productions, Pharmacy Technician, Dental Occupations, and Welding.</p>
<p>Students in those programs get the same high school diploma but also usually get a certification of some other type, such as a CNA for the health occupations course. </p>
<p>At high school freshman orientation, the principal was really pushing these programs. Perhaps it is because I live in a blue collar area that has been primarily focused on auto-industry jobs, but I was a put off by how hard he pushed those programs yet we only have six AP offerings. We are skewed the opposite way, in my opinion. I wish they would have a similar consortium for the brightest students too so that AP offerings could be more widespread and equal. Some of our local school districts have dropped AP because of budget constraints. Others offer a lot more than our district does. </p>
<p>I agree we are not the same as Taiwan culturally. We also test EVERY student and when these statistics come out saying we are #22, etc., we are competing against countries who are only testing the brightest and best because the others are tracked in other areas.</p>
<p>No, I think we need to ‘fix’ the post high school experience. Too many kids head for 4 year colleges and degrees simply because there is a lack of awareness or depending on the state, a lack of educational/vocational education post 12th grade. Just as college bound kids have access to local colleges for dual-credit opportunities, non-college bound kids should have access so vocational technology classes in the late high school years, but I believe the traditional 9-12 curriculum is elastic enough now to accommodate all kids. If the local district is not elastic then that is a local problem or a state problem not a national problem.</p>
<p>Like the above poster we are fortunate to have vocational technology dual-credit classes available for seniors (and some juniors) just as college bound kids have access to college level dual-credit classes. But I noticed that poster was also in Michigan so perhaps it’s a regional or state thing.</p>
<p>While most of the kids in our high school go on to a 4 year college, 96%, there are ample opportunities for kids that are not going on to college at the high school itself or through numerous other programs. Kids that want to be a hair stylist can take classes at the vo-tech school (community college) and be done or almost done with that by the time they graduate from high school, just like the college bound kids can take dual credit classes at the state flagship. There are on the job (OJT) training programs in many areas from secretarial to auto mechanic to plumber, etc. that again, count for both high school and post-secondary credits. Our school also has several tech type classes, auto shop, CAD, etc for kids that want to explore those options in high school. The only real difference is the way they rank kids in our school. These kids would never be able to graduate in the top of the class (or even the top 50 %) but who cares, it doesn’t matter at all.</p>
<p>Since most kids don’t turn 18 until senior year, if we went to a 2 tier system, we would also have to change labor laws in the US and I don’t see that happening any time soon. In other countries, 17 is the age of majority so they can work full time jobs there.</p>
<p>There is a second credential besides the HS diploma–the GED exam. You’d be surprised at how many kids do drop out, take the GED, and then later go to a CC or university that accepts a GED in lieu of the HS diploma.</p>
<p>There are options already in place. My DH’s cousin has kids who had no desire to go to college and graduating high school was even a tough go. But they refused to even “play ball” in any of the vocational and technical programs either. Their issues were more than just not wanting to do academics. BOth dropped out and are in life styles that are abysmal. They are with a whole crowd of people of the same, and that they dropped out of high school is the least of their problems…To do any track of any program requires a discipline. The European models work because the families and kids are so pushed to do so with the tradition and back drop that makes other alternatives difficult to find. Not so the case in our country. We have a large number of people who are not supporting themselves and are self destructive to boot, and we are not addressing this group well.</p>
<p>I would have been fine supporting most any of my kids’ aspirations even if they did not mesh with what their schools. However. sleeping most of the day, running around at night and not doing a thing to get self sufficient was not among the options. It’s a terrible problem, and some dear to us have it with their young adult kids. </p>
<p>It’s a whole other issue than my what my neighbors had when their dd wanted to become a chef and continuing college was not what she wanted to do. She did leave college, she now owns a catering business and cafe, and she actually went back and got her BA at night too.</p>
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<p>I am aware of the GED, but between the time a kid drops out and the time he/she gets a GED, he has no credentials, which severely limits his/her employment opportunities</p>
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<p>However, reading is still an important skill for those looking to go into a skilled line of work that does not require a bachelor’s degree. Ever see the [service</a> manual](<a href=“http://www.bentleypublishers.com/bmw/features/b503/bentley-b503-product.photo.1-500.jpg]service”>http://www.bentleypublishers.com/bmw/features/b503/bentley-b503-product.photo.1-500.jpg) for a car?</p>
![http://www.bentleypublishers.com/bmw/features/b503/bentley-b503-product.photo.1-500.jpg]service](http://www.bentleypublishers.com/bmw/features/b503/bentley-b503-product.photo.1-500.jpg%5Dservice){kind=link}
<p>There are age minimums for the GED, which vary and are usually 16, 17 or 18 years old. By the end of the 11th grade, most high school juniors are at least 17.</p>
<p>@ucbalumnus,
I have a professional STEM degree and still can’t comprehend what’s written in a car service manual</p>
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<p>Note that even many students intending to go to college for a bachelor’s degree do not take that amount of math and science (although they should in order to avoid needing remedial course work).</p>