<p>ucbalumnus–you keep bringing up this remedial thing, in YOUR state that happens, in our state you can’t graduate from high school without these courses, which require more than any college we have seen (4 years of pretty much everything here). I don’t know of a single student that had to take ANY remedial classes in college for anything. There are places with great high schools that do a fantastic job of getting kids ready for college, just not your area.</p>
<p>Maybe a lot of kids who are being pressured into going to college really shouldn’t be going. According to this NYT article, only 58% of kids going to college end up finishing w a bachelors degree.
<a href=“Opinion | Is Algebra Necessary? - The New York Times”>Opinion | Is Algebra Necessary? - The New York Times;
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<p>Most high school students do not take calculus. However, business and economics majors do have to take it in college if they have not, and they and most other social studies majors have to take statistics or a major-specific version of statistics.</p>
<p>Regarding physics or science in general in high school, it falls into a similar category as history and social studies in high school – not as fundamental as English and math, but still considered important enough for some requirement to exist. However, physics is usually not required, and many college-bound students do not take it in high school.</p>
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<p>If you want to change this, then you need employers who are willing to hire young adults at a decent wage with only a HS diploma and then be willing to invest money to train them and keep them.</p>
<p>ucbalumnus–again in YOUR state you see few kids taking calculus. There are 12 sections of AP Calc AP and 5 sections of AP Calc BC at our school this year. That is about 500 out of 550 kids, pretty common for the schools around here. Almost every student in our high school takes at least pre-calc. Of those 500 or so kids, 90% score 4 or better on the AP exam too. 99% get a 3 or better.</p>
<p>I think this concept has great merit. Although the marine biologists and investment bankers I went to high school with didn’t have a clue what they were going to do with their lives, the plumbers and beauticians did, and would have been happy to just start doing what they always dreamed of doing. I like what @compmom said:</p>
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<p>I wanted to be a beautician from the time I could use a comb and suffered through honors classes until I could go to beauty school. I dropped out of calculus my senior year and focused on getting a scholarship to beauty school –bet you didn’t you even know those exist. Anyway, I eventually ended up in college (but not because I wanted to go) and used my skills to cut hair in the dorm to earn “pocket money” as I went. I’m in my 50’s now, and I still enjoy cutting my family’s hair though I never did get to work as a beautician (Harvard Business School got in the way).</p>
<p>This is a true story and is not the focus of most of your points as many of you seem to think that the trades are only for drop-outs or those not academically inclined. I want to make the point that for kids who just want to get on with a trade they are good at or dream of (yes, CCers, some people dream of working at a trade), it would be great if the public school system served their needs. The concept @GMT is posing is not just to counter the drop-out rate, but to support those who want to become productive members of society in other ways.</p>
<p>(Nice to see you on this board @GMTplus7. ;)</p>
<p>Speaking only for the ‘two tier’ diploma in Virginia, if a student opts for a standard diploma (which is sufficient for entrance to many of the public universities, btw), moves onto vocational training and later decides it’s just not for them, our top universities have articulation agreements with our community colleges. Each university stipulates required classes and GPA, however a student can earn an associates degree from a VA community college and have an auto-admit to UVa, William & Mary, or Virginia Tech regardless of their high school record or SATs. There is definitely a way to change your path, even from a GED.</p>
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<p>Again that is a state problem, Michigan requires 4 years of math for anyone receiving a HS diploma and schools out of necessity have developed curriculum to ensure that all kids get those 4 years…that doesn’t need to mean Calculus.</p>
<p>I don’t think the trades are only for drop outs, but what I am hearing are comments from people who prepared for college, who are having their children prepare for college, but think that limiting the choices of other students is " helping" them.</p>
<p>I did not take college prep classes in high school. In fact I left the comprehensive high school I was attending at the end of my sophomore year, attended an alternative high school for a few years, and left that when my father died when I was 17. I went on to take my GED, I earned my cosmetology license but did not come close to earning enough to support more than the bare basics. I eventually started attending community college and desperately wanted to transfer to a four year school, but learning a foreign language as an adult proved impossible, and so I was never able to fulfill entrance requirements.</p>
<p>My husband has a similar story. His career has been greatly limited by the fact he lacks a degree although he is highly skilled and he currently trains people who have degrees, who then go on to other positions in the company.</p>
<p>That isn’t what we wanted for our kids.</p>
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That makes no sense. A 13 y/o rarely has any idea what they want to do for a career for the rest of their lives and is in no position to make that determination. They still have a lot of personal development to go through during the HS years and a lot of discovery of things they know little to nothing about during middle school including sciences, math, and some other areas. If the 13 y/o was deciding we’d see an abnormal percentage of people deciding to be basketball players and astronauts. Since the 13 y/o is in no position to know or to decide it’s bound to be the parent who decides anyway.</p>
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I can believe that for certain schools in certain areas in any state in the country, mostly the wealthier areas, but not for many/most of the schools in the state since in fact, most HS grads don’t have that level of education when they graduate. It’s hard for me to believe that what you describe is anywhere close to average for your state.</p>
<p>btw - I took auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop in HS yet still managed to get a HS diploma, go on to college, and go into a very good career. They’re not mutually exclusive and not every kid taking a shop class is ‘non-academically inclined’ or headed to a ‘vocational career’ as some imply. In fact, these shop classes have served me well, especially auto shop. I’ve used those skills to perform my own service to the tune of many thousands of dollars saved above what most people pay for vehicle service. Beyond that, I think some of the capabilities learned in shop classes are helpful training for one to have a can-do and do-it-yourself attitude to get something done as well as sometimes to think outside the box as well when trying to solve particular problems of how to make or fix something as needs to sometimes be done related to these shop classes.</p>
<p>And even if one decides to go into a career as a mechanic, electrician, plumber, carpenter, and the like, the basic foundational level of knowledge gained through a HS curriculum will likely serve them well throughout their careers. Some of them will go on to build businesses out of these vocations (many of whom will be much more successful than the typical history or English major college grad - not that there’s anything wrong with that) and will need that knowledge in doing so. These people also can benefit from the general education for their personal lives in knowing a bit of history, literature, science, math, etc. just as much as a college grad.</p>
<p>I would hazard to guess that the posters on CC, by virtue of their interest in higher education, have higher-than-average intellect and career ambition. </p>
<p>For those on the other side of average, I think the current system is not only not supporting them, but may actually be causing damage.</p>
<p>OK, so we adopt the ‘two tier’ system, and some get a credential after 10th or 11th grade, and then what? Will there really be this great demand in the job market for these young adults? What tells you that there will be?</p>
<p>CC is a forum for discussing education. Fixing the economy, solving world hunger & curing cancer is another website</p>
<p>Oh, please! This isn’t some forensics tournament, either.</p>
<p>You brought job prospects in the first place–as you said
and then you’re not willing to say how this other credential is supposed to increase employment opportunities (other than being a credential), especially when we do have another credential in the first place–the GED, which students can take when they are 16-18 years old.</p>
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No, we attempt to take care of those issues on CC as well (as long as we stay away from politics).</p>
<p>YES YES YES YES YES!!!</p>
<p>Did I say that clearly? LOL</p>
<p>Also, if things went back to their old way…as in, our local public schools used to offer technical training until heavy standardization hit requiring ALL kids to be “college ready”…then those students could get the technical training, and then still turn around and go to college if they wanted. They might not go to MIT…but some still went to fine places such as community college, and many state universities. It does not prevent you from going to college. It just is not going to give you the kind of prep that someone going straight to engineering school would need. But even so, a child could recover what is needed if they want to anyway. Not like anything prevents a 20, 30, or even 60 yr old from returning to school for a change of pace.</p>
<p>Many schools no longer have auto body, auto repair, wood shop or metal shop.
To pursue those fields as a career you are not hurt by having taken a foreign language, four years of math or American government.</p>
<p>We have regional vocational centers and it is my understanding that students can earn a high school diploma while being enrolled at the same time as they are being trained for jobs.</p>
<p>However, our district does not make use of the Puget Sound center, instead preferring to offer a few vocational programs for students on site.
Like Early childhood education. Now there’s a path to making a good living.
:rolleyes:</p>
<p>High school is really a minimal education. Four years of math doesn’t mean CalcAB & BC. The way math is taught in many districts students may be lucky to understand algebra at graduation. Everyone should take US History and American Government. Everyone should know how to write and how to evaluate an argument. </p>
<p>I do agree however, that it could benefit many students if we looked at their public education as 6-20, rather than 6-18. This could give them a chance to apprentice with a mentor, to travel with their family, to simply take longer to fulfill state graduation requirements.</p>
<p>Since all 4 year universities in our state require two years of a foreign language even to apply, yet state graduation requirements don’t require ANY foreign language, it can’t be argued that we expect all students to attend college.</p>
<p>We already are flexible enough that we allow students to earn college credits while in high school, why not go the other way and allow students to move slower through the curriculum if they desire.</p>
<p>Oh wait- we judge schools & districts , as well as teachers on student test scores.</p>
<p>Yes…and I find the idea of 6-20 intriguing…especially in light of the high cost of college education and the sheer number of kids that head to college that aren’t really college ready nor belong in college immediately following high school if ever.</p>
<p>NYS used to have more of a two-tier system, but decided a while back that everyone needed to be prepared for college even if they didn’t attend. They do have vocational ed on a regional basis.</p>
<p>I have mixed feelings about the German system. We had two 16 year old apprentice drafters in our architectural office. For one it seemed to actually light a fire under him and I believe his grades went up and he planned to work out a way to get back on university track. But I also had a friend who was forced to be a bank teller and was bored to death. She took a bunch of language courses and got her self into a travel agency which suited her better. She took evening classes and was trying to get to university, but ended up with health problems and had to drop it. Last I heard she was a secretary at a Goethe Institute where at least she could use her language skills.</p>