Should U.S. consider a 2-tier HS diploma to accommodate non-college track kids

Parents Forum
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<p>A kid in our neighborhood really wanted to be an auto mechanic. Has a good talent with mechanical skills. Parents vetoed and said he needed to go to college first, then could do what he wanted as long as he could support himself. He’s now a college senior, has muddled through, and is no closer to what he’d really like to do.</p>

<p>Also have three nephews who did not get through HS and have not gotten GEDs. One got himself into lots of trouble with the law before finally becoming a tile layer. His HS (which I attended) did not care when he dropped out. One less kid who would bring hte test scores down. The other two spend what little money they get from odd jobs on getting tattoos. Parents will not support them in getting into a tech school or finishing school. (They are my step-nephews – mom “homeschooled” them and they are 17 & 19 with 3rd grade reading levels. She did them a massive disservice.)</p>

<p>OTOH, I know someone who finished HS and trained as a carpenter. Makes incredible stuff. When he was 22, he went to an Ivy for UG and to another Ivy for law school. He has been able to combine his creativity and his brilliance into a life that works for him. Had he taken a purely voc-ed track in HS, other doors may well have been closed forever.</p>

<p>I am not convinced US schools are capable of implementing a two-tier system that provides the communication/math/science/civic knowledge ALL students need to be active citizens in this country.</p>

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<p>Other than specifically noted private high schools that are “prep” schools, high schools I have seen do have various tracks for those students for whom college is not of interest and just getting out with a degree is. Whether it is voc/tech track or just courses that do not go as far as the college prep ones, there are tracks. In fact, even at some prep schools, there are tracks and courses that are not going to prepare a student for college,very well, and those kids who go that route often have to take pre college courses at community college or where ever they may go to college if they do go on to college. There is a many tiered system in place, the way I see it.</p>

<p>I don’t really see the lack of a high school diploma to be a huge impediment to anyone who is looking for a job. The problem is that there are not very many jobs (like hardly any or none) that are going to allow a teenager with no marketable skills with or without high school diploma, and even college, to be financially self sufficient. My husband’s cousin has two kids who dropped out of high school. They were earning more than my kids were per hour at positions that my kids couldn’t even get because my kids were available only during the summer whereas their cousins were available all year any time. Until my kid got some certifications and some “ins”, they were hard put to find jobs high school degrees, recs and all. The local gas station, the yogurt shop, the dish washing positions were open to all with no interest in whether the applicant had a high school diploma or not. My auditioning poor starving actor competes for jobs regularly with high school drop outs, illegal immigrants, criminals, and his college degree, high school diploma mean nothing in many of those jobs, and are an impediment, in fact. </p>

<p>Where the problem lies is that a lot of those kids, and the cousins are in this category, have no direction, interest or skills. I think that if they found something that interested them enough, something to motivate them enough that has a market, that requires someone with a skill, and if they could have gotten into that niche, they would have been much better able to find something other than a minimum wage or less job with fluctuating hours and being treated like dirt. That was really more a priority than the danged GED that everyone was all focused on. One has finally gotten the GED after a stint at a Job Corp where he is being trained for some sort of job. The GED alone isn’t going to help him one bit as he still doesn’t want to do anything that requires a lot of work and effort. He wants an easy job with a laid back boss where he can call in if he doesn’t feel like working, and that pays enough so he can “get by” in his definitions working about 30 hours aweek and no early morning hours. Good luck to him in finding this but even a college degree isn’t going to do the magic to find such a thing. </p>

<p>It takes a lot to focus on a skill whether it is a college degree or wood working. My local mechanic hires a revolving door of young men who don’t last at the station, each and every one could become an auto mechanic if he so wanted. And he could not care less if the kid has a high school diploma or a GED if he were on the ball, motivated, disciplined, etc. My one son took violing making courses one summer and some of the crafts men there did not finish high school but took their passion in wood carving and music in this direction. They have done just fine. </p>

<p>Agreed that the lack of a GED is going to block a person from certain jobs at the post offfice, bank, airlines, or going into the military, but the ones I have seen who were not getting that high school equivalency weren’t interested in such disciplines or not going to get anything in those areas even with that piece of paper with their frame of minds where they were at that time. When they were ready for focusing, the GED just put a few months between seeking employment in areas that needed it. </p>

<p>With my kids, having put them all in college prep private schools and really keeping them in activities and around people who were college oriented, they went right through high school without a thought about skipping out on that milestone. But that isn’t the case with a lot of kids and families, and when that is the case, the concern to me is more getting the kid interested in something, anything that is not destructive, because that is where the trouble begins and lies.</p>

<p>And the problem is the same with those of us with college kids who drop out or take a break but have no other interest. Having the kid on the couch at home lethargic or interested only in destructive activities is the problem, not the lack of a degree. Finding some kind of outlet that also gets them financially self sufficient and out of trouble is more an issue.</p>

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<p>The idea has merit, but it will not happen as long as we believe our system of education works. It will also never happen as long as we believe in equal education for everyone in a non competitive system. The current system does NOT care to educate everyone and does count on massive dropouts to balance its books. </p>

<p>While we pretend to care about everyone, the reality is that we produce entire generations of uneducated people who were not given an education that kept them interested. In turn, that generation is gleefully employed by Walmart and other smaller companies practicing a trade. In a way, this explains the challenges of locating a competent mechanic, bricklayer, plumber, AC technician who is not an immigrant. </p>

<p>When it comes to education, the USA lives in a fantasy world fueled by its romantic view that it still leads the world. The reality is that the system is a bloated heaven for the lazy, the incompetent, and is politically rigged to dismiss any positive change.</p>

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<p>Like other’s have said and no one is answering…just exactly what jobs will these 16-17 year olds be able to do with this limited high school diploma?</p>

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<p>After two years in certificate prorams in our area, they can be pres-school teachers, EMTs, cosmetologists, mechanics helpers (because most shops require additional training), cooks, CNAs, security guards, auto-CAD techs. Only the welders can get well-paid jobs. In our blue collar town, the waitlist for electrician and plumber apprenticeships is long and they are hiring those who are connected or those with college degrees. </p>

<p>While these jobs need to be filled, there are also hundreds of people in the community college getting the same degrees along with college-level math, English and science requirements.</p>

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<p>I’m never in favor of tracking students. They should always have the option of taking a more challenging curriculum if they want. Unlike the OP, I have never seen a school require a student to take french or study polynomials. Those classes are optional.</p>

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<p>Erin’s Dad–tracking in education is a positive for all involved. If a student wants to take AP Calc BC yet can barely add, how is this doing anyone any good? Tracking tends to be more effective and used more in elementary and middle school. It allows kids to move at a pace that is right for them. It allows the advanced students to move along faster while the kids that need more time to grasp concepts can work on those until they master them. Rigid tracts are not good and kids should be evaluated on a regular basis but for every student out there, being in an appropriate track is a GOOD thing. The problem lies when the parents get their undies in a wad because their little Einstein isn’t in the “top” track…and rightly so. :D.</p>

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<p>I think there is a de facto tracking system in place already, at least in the schools here. Our HS has multiple levels, ranging from 3 (special ed) to 9 (college prep/AP). Between middle school teacher recommendations, performance in HS classes, and student/parent course selection, the students pretty much self-select into a track.</p>

<p>I don’t like the idea of something like the old English 11-plus exam, which was a high-stakes test taken by 11 year olds that pretty much determined their future. Clearly, late bloomers or kids who happened to be under the weather on the day of the test were tracked into inappropriately vocational occupations (there was also a social class issue in terms of which school the child was enrolled in).</p>

<p>That said, I do agree that some kids are inappropriately pressured to enter college, when they have neither the skills nor interest to be there.</p>

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<p>Polynomials are Algebra 1</p>

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Yes, it would. But a measure of “academically inclined” will be correlated to scores on standardized tests such as the SAT or ACT, and those tests exhibit substantial gaps according to parental income, parental education, and race. I say so be it – these tests are not biased in the sense of underpredicting the college grades of low-SES or black or Hispanic students. However, it is very politically incorrect to say that not all groups are equally “academically inclined”.</p>

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<p>A high school diploma basically says a person had the discipline to hang in there to get it. It is no assurance of what knowledge a student has. Though some schools just give certificates of completions to those who hang in there for the requisite number of years but have not completed the academics that a high school degree represents, in this case I am referring to those who are intellectually disabled, some do give actual diplomas to all. </p>

<p>But we have tracks, oh, we very much have tracks. Most all of the selective colleges want their students to have taken the “most difficult courses” a high school has to offer. The college prep curriculum even has tracks to a point that is ridiculous (what the heck is advanced honors algebra2 with trig?) It makes me crazy sometimes when I see these differnetiations when all fo the kids will be applying and going to college in that group.</p>

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<p>That is really not the question to ask because it sets up a false comparison. What should be asked is what kind of jobs young adults (18-22) could get after spending several years in a vocational and technical program and a series of paid internship/apprenticeship could get. </p>

<p>There is no future in expanding that vocational and technical school within the framework of the system of public high school. Offering a few woodshop or metalshop to add a watered down general academic program is just a road to more failures. What we need are seperate schools with an entirely new crop of teachers who understand the tchnical demands of this century, and facilities that specialized in this type of education.</p>

<p>Those technical and vocational programs could be a nice entry to an expanded community college program that could add basic accounting and finance skills. At the young age of 20 to 21, those young people would be able to compete in today’s society with skills ranging for electronics to the basic bricklaying, plumbing, and related construction skills.</p>

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<p>According to the Census, about 3.2 million high school diplomas were awarded in 2012, and according to the AP Program Summary Report 2012, 361,000 AP calculus (AB or BC) exams were taken, so a high school with 90% of students taking AP calculus exams is very unusual.</p>

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<p>I remember reading the Adventures of Polynomial in HS.</p>

<p>A HS Degree demonstrates a certain level of proficiency. If some kids drop out, then it means they did not achieve that level of proficiency. Maybe a Junior High School diploma can be the other degree.</p>

<p>The degree means the employer can expect you to have a certain basic level of abilities (reading, writing, math, science, history, government). Not necessarily a high level, but a minimum basic level. That allows the employer to design training programs that assume that basic level of proficiency (you can read the training manual and follow directions).</p>

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<p>Assuming that you are in Massachusetts, there are students who need remedial courses in college. Your state flagship offers remedial math courses (011, 101, 102, 104):</p>

<p>[UMass</a> Amherst Dept of Mathematics and Statistics: Course Descriptions](<a href=“http://www.math.umass.edu/Courses/course_desc.html?sem=current]UMass”>http://www.math.umass.edu/Courses/course_desc.html?sem=current)</p>

<p>Of course, many of the people on these forums seem mainly the bubble of their academically elite public or private high schools, as opposed to schools with any hint of students who are not bound for a four year college after high school graduation.</p>

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<p>*Assuming that you are in Massachusetts, there are students who need remedial courses in college. *
I expect many universities find they need to offer remedial courses.
[Minnesota</a> Graduates Failing Students | Heartlander Magazine](<a href=“http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2012/08/01/minnesota-graduates-failing-students?quicktabs_4=2]Minnesota”>http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2012/08/01/minnesota-graduates-failing-students?quicktabs_4=2)</p>

<p>Forty percent of students does seem alarming however.</p>

<p><a href=“http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2011/01/25/study-more-college-students-need-remedial-classes/[/url]”>http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2011/01/25/study-more-college-students-need-remedial-classes/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Just google “college” & “remedial” and you will be depressed by how much pops up
[colleges</a> remedial - Google Search](<a href=“colleges remedial - Google Search”>colleges remedial - Google Search)</p>

<p>Apparently, even a 12-year HS diploma program isn’t serving all the college-track kids</p>

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<p>Last year, I looked at Arizona State’s schedule of classes and found that the enrollment in remedial math courses was more than half of that of the freshman class (and remedial English composition enrollment was also substantial). Given that Arizona State’s enrollment likely covers the entire range of college-bound students in Arizona (from the top students to the marginal admits, since Arizona has only three state universities, of which Arizona State is by far the largest), its remedial enrollment is probably not all that much different from that in four year colleges overall combined.</p>

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<p>How are we talking about vocational high schools letting kids out without vocational training? In our area, it’s also regional- and the kids are prepared for career paths, whether that’s auto mechanic or food services or whatever. Not just a couple of woodworking classes. They get a hs diploma, they take the basic classes required by the state. It’ not a way to drop out, more of a way to opt out of usual pre-college paths, with an alternate goal in mind.</p>

<p>And, the ones I know are in no worse position in the job hunt- and motivation, smarts and dedication matter in finding those jobs, just as they do for college grads. </p>

<p>I often think we suffer an illusion that college is a panacea, a college degree is a magic key. Not necessarily. For many, including my own, it’s a needed buffer period, they want the addl knowledge and challenges, the deeper learning experiences- and they hope to use these in a certain level of career work. But, to me, if a 10th grader determines he/she wants to get pre-professional training, can commit to that, why not let them? Why force them into more English, history or another lab science? Are we thinking these make a huge difference? Really?</p>

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<p>Yeah, and how’s the weather in Lake Wobegon this week?</p>

<p>If you’re reporting the situation accurately, I’d suggest that you probably live in an area with a highly educated population (think upper middle class suburbia). It’s also clear from numerous statistics that your situation is the exception, not the norm. Spend some time in an inner city school, or a blue collar suburban school, or a rural school, and you’ll find the situation far different. In every state.</p>