<p>Great thread. Like others I want D to have the best experience possible. However, I recognize that that experience goes beyond undergrad and it's probably not too smart to break the bank over a 4 year degree.</p>
<p>Law schools are very much driven by GPA and LSAT - I would not go into huge debt to go to an Ivy in order to increase the chance for law school. Graduating in the top of the class from a T14 law school will get you the same job as graduating from the top 5 - if your goal is the make money out of law school. If you want to clerk for the Supreme Court or teach at Yale law, then by all means, go to Yale law, but if you want to leave law school and make $160k per year, then there are other choices.</p>
<p>Taxguy, you're not factoring in how hard some kids want to pursue the outcomes from majors such as art, theater and music. They make different choices, living much more frugally after college than their friends who majored in business or science. If you asked them to trade places, they wouldn't.</p>
<p>I have no problem with people who take on ridiculous amounts of debt for school. I just have no sympathy when they complain about the burden of loan payments.</p>
<p>I also have no problem with people who study topics that don't monetize well. I just have no sympathy when they complain about the burden of low income.</p>
<p>
[quote]
At the top law schools, this simply isn't true. Keep in mind that the selectivity of top law schools put many elite colleges to shame. For example, Yale's acceptance rate is under 7%. Rigorousness, prestige, reputation of your undergrad are all factors they'll use to make a decision. Yale Law might take someone from GA State every decade or so, but they take dozens of people from Harvard, Yale, Stanford every year.
[/quote]
That has more to do with LSAT than anything else.</p>
<p>It's never prudent to incur huge debt, no matter what. However, I do think one should go to the school that has a strong department in your intended major. One should be prepared to accept your Bachelors as your terminal degree because life has many turns, (early marriage, good entry level career, illness, poor grades)and perhaps grad school never materializes.</p>
<p>For those who want to go to a no name school in hopes of landing a top grad school, make sure you will be happy with your no name school degree because you may not get into a top grad school.</p>
<p>It really depends. No single solution is right or wrong. We are just happy now that we are able to offer our kid an oppertunity to be able to chose colleges without take into any consideration based on fianantial restrains.</p>
<p>The OP assumes the student pays for his college education. It really should the parents role to pay for their children's college education. That is the assumption made by colleges when they calculate financial aid. They don't assume the students get into significant debt. Graduate or professional school is another matter. Most medical, business or law school students end up assuming large amounts of debt, and in virtually all cases such debt is easily leveraged from the future professional income. </p>
<p>Many parents invest in their children's education by sending them to private school since kindergarten or moving to more expensive districts so that they can get access to better public schools. They make large sacrifices to make sure their kids get a solid education. Shortchanging them once they reach college age to save a buck is stupid. Paying for a good college education is probably the best investment we can make in our childrens' future. I'd rather pass on remodeling the house than miss the opportunity to have a kid attend of top university. Even if it means taking on a second mortgage! There are many intangibles that come with attending an top level college, as well as much greater opportunities for professional and graduate school. </p>
<p>In many cases, it is even a false choice. Attending a well endowed private university is now cheaper than State U for many students. Stanford is now cheaper than Berkeley or UCLA for the typical family, MIT is cheaper than UMass and Yale cheaper than UConn. At some top schools you still get financial aid if the annual family income exceeds $200,000.</p>
<p>"Paying for a good college education is probably the best investment we can make in our childrens' future. I'd rather pass on remodeling the house than miss the opportunity to have a kid attend of top university. Even if it means taking on a second mortgage! There are many intangibles that come with attending an top level college, as well as much greater opportunities for professional and graduate school."</p>
<p>Is there ANY empirical data which supports the proposition that, in monetary terms, paying substantially more to attend a highly selective college or university is a good investment?</p>
<p>"Attending a well endowed private university is now cheaper than State U for many students. Stanford is now cheaper than Berkeley or UCLA for the typical family, MIT is cheaper than UMass and Yale cheaper than UConn. At some top schools you still get financial aid if the annual family income exceeds $200,000."</p>
<p>First, if your income exceeds $200,00, you will only receive need-based aid if you have more than one child in college. Second, you ignore the fact that any person who can be admitted to HYPS or MIT can attend a variety of perfectly respectable colleges tuition free.</p>
<p>I make 60k a year - and my kids still receive very little in need based aid. You are punished by the system if you have saved. I have friends (dual income) who make 3x what I do, but have saved less over the years - instead they have the boats, do the big trips every year, have every electronic known to man, and their kids get more than mine.</p>
<p>Believe me - I am paying PLENTY for college. I am VERY hesitant to take on debt on top of that.</p>
<p>The luster of prestige dims rapidly by the weight of debt. Buy an expensive car....you'll see what I mean.</p>
<p>cellardweller, if you are prepared to take on substantial debt for your child(ren)'s education, go for it.</p>
<p>Not everyone is in that position, however.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For those who want to go to a no name school in hopes of landing a top grad school, make sure you will be happy with your no name school degree because you may not get into a top grad school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes! This is something that people seem to forget often. There are many fields in which grad schools, top or not, are terrifyingly selective - I am not in one, but I have heard people who are talk about all their programs having acceptance rates of under 5%. A lot of good candidates get rejected from all their choices the first time around and have to work, with that bachelor's degree, for at least a couple of years.</p>
<p>"But will choosing the cheap undergrad school (which is ranked really low in my case) limit my opportunity for law school. I would like to attend a prestigious law school so that I can get a job working for the UN. But will a top law school be willing to accept a student from a no name college in Georgia (Georgia State)?"</p>
<ol>
<li><p>What do you major at GSU? They do have some pretty good majors. Choose one that requires a lot of reading and analytical skills.</p></li>
<li><p>What is your GPA? Is it higher than 3.75? Are you in the honors program?</p></li>
<li><p>What are your ECs while in college? GSU offers a great environment with many opportunities, take advantage of it.</p></li>
<li><p>Really, working for the UN sounds lofty but it doesn't pay much. So, if you've got items (1), (2) and (3) nailed down, it'd be great for your future at a low cost school. All you need is a very high LSAT score. I am sure you can get to a great law school.</p></li>
<li><p>If this is any comfort, my friend is a partner at one of the big four accounting firms, and he's a GSU grad. Another is a partner at a big law firm. Believe in yourself. Make the best where you are instead of worrying about things not yet coming.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Once again, if you have the GPA and LSAT scores, it doesn't matter where you get your undergrad or what you major in - with a few exceptions so don't bring up basket weaving. The thing that is arguably out of your control is the LSAT score, but you can get a ballpark idea from your SAT score. There is an argument that certain majors may prepare you for law school, but I'm not convinced. The people that I saw do the best in law school either compensated by working ridiculously hard or were hard wired to be successful in that environment. The benefit that I saw from majoring in English in a rigorous department was that I didn't think the volume of reading was a big deal while my friends from other majors were more surprised.</p>
<p>While I generally agree that undergrad college matters alot when trying to get in top tier grad schools, I can also tell you that Yale and others, take more than every decade or so. I am an Atlanta resident and I can tell you there are MANY GSU grads who have gone on to Yale and many of the other top tier law schools. It is not a podunk school, but rather a large state university in the heart of downtown Atlanta. It should also be noted that GSU is FREE to qualifying GA residents. Free as in zero, funded by the GA lottery. The wife of the NY governor went to Harvard Law School and I don't even think I had ever even heard of her undergrad college. Having said all that, I would always go, or send my kids to, the best undergrad school we can because plans often change and the best schools generally have the most recruiters recruiting there, and if they do go on to grad school, why take a chance? They are going to need all the ammunition they can get in the future competitive job market. As far as kids making back the costs, that is an issue. How does a kid make enough after college to pay off hefty student loans without parental help? It presents quite a burden at a time a young person needs to be saving and buying a home and probably replacing a car. So, for my analysis, the choices are GSU(free), say Emory with $80k in tuition loans, or say, Princeton with $100k in tuition loans. Will the kid make back INCREMENTALLY more by going to Emory or Princeton to justify the massive debt? Unless he picks a solid marketable major, it will be tough. If he goes to GSU and graduates with zero debt, he has a leg up in life already! If he wants to work in NYC, maybe GSU will not serve him very well. Princeton on the other hand, is probably marketable coast to coast. If he wants to work in Atlanta, UGA(also free) or GSU will serve the student very well. If the student or parents are going for social status or prestige, Emory or Princeton will always look better than GSU. There are just so many factors. What if the kid works 3 years and then decides he needs a grad degree or wants to go to law school, now how does GSU vs. Princeton look? Princeton sure looks better but remember the kids will be headed to grad school already still owing $100k in tuition! The bottom line is, I know successful people who went to great schools and not so great schools. So much is dependent on other factors such as motivation, ability to work through adversity and politics, and plain old luck. In three years we will be facing the same decisions that you all are facing today. Good luck.</p>
<p>yay for merit scholarships! lots of top 20 schools (Vandy, Wash U, Emory, carnegie Mellon, rice) offer nice merit scholarships. apply to lots and maybe you'll get a sweet deal at one. grad school is different: just get into the best you can and you'll pay it off later.</p>
<p>One more factor I think we need to consider is the application pool. As many have pointed out, the pure increase in applicants made this year's UG admission one of the most difficult. I don't have any data but reading between the lines gave me the impression. That certain caliber of students should have gotten into top UG schools 5 ~ 10 year ago may not this time around. </p>
<p>In other words, some of this general observation such as "UG" does not matter much for top GS may change around 2012 or 2013 when these kids finishing their UG.</p>
<p>It has also something to do with the state of economy. In a boom time, many of the UG will get good job offers. Therefore fewer apply to graduate schools. OTOH, many will have to go to graduate school if there is not any good job.</p>
<p>My friends son just got into Yale's law school. He is graduating from the University of Wisconsin- Eau Claire. Not exactly Harvard, right? What he did do was study like crazy for the LSAT, from junior year onward. He took the paractice tests over and over. He got a 172 on the LSAT, and was accepted into every law school he applied to.</p>
<p>Sorry, but I just cannot agree that undergrad is irrelevant to grad or professional school. In my humble opinion, it is bad and risky advice to just go anywhere and believe that you'll be on equal footing with students from elite schools.</p>
<p>1/3 of Yale Law's current class went to Yale, Harvard or Stanford:</p>
<p>Yale</a> Daily News - ?Serendipity? plays role in Yale Law School admissions</p>
<p>This is borne out by my experience with attorneys that attended elite law schools (nearly all went to an Ivy or top LAC). Not all, but certainly most.</p>
<p>Is it possible that a student from a lower tier school with a 4.0 and 175 LSAT will get into a elite program. Sure -- maybe even likely. I wouldn't bank on attaining either of those anywhere, however. And around the margins, you're better off with a more prestigious undergrad. And it's the same with good, but lower ranked schools. Ask yourself this and be honest: If you're admitting students to your law school, all else being roughly equal, do you take the student from Harvard or the student from 3rd tier State U? Are you more likley to put Harvard as a feeder school on your law school marketing materials or 3rd tier State U?</p>