<p>"second, a student cannot by himself borrow $100+k for college tuition, but his parents can (assuming they are credit worthy and willing). the families i know who are doing this have an arrangement where they are making a deal with the kid that s/he will pay back the parents after graduation."</p>
<p>At the numbers cited, that means with 99.44% certainty that the parents are going to eat it. So why not call it for what it is?</p>
<p>I will be presumptuous based on my post 225 and on hvccgolf's post number 239: Go to the cheaper school and do NOT incurr 100K in undergrad debt! In fact, go to your instate university or consider starting off at a junior college in order to cut your expenses even more. Work during the year and in summers and, if possible, take the RA position. If done right, you should be able to get your total debt down to 30K,which is a LOT more manageable.</p>
<p>I had a question last week that didn't get any answers--anyone know if you can take classes at your state university for the basics and then transfer to the "dream Ivy League" school midway through your undergrad years? NO, I haven't gone to the dark side and decided the youngins must go Ivy... ;) I just was wondering if anyone has done that route.</p>
<p>Hubby and I are doing a lot more thinking about finances after reading this board--thanks for all the input.</p>
<p>ivy - that's a good quesiton, and perhaps one for the various admissions folks you talk to. Never too early to investigate these things. They have stats on everything, and perhaps that's one of them.</p>
<p>Many Ivy's will accept outside credits. Cornell even gives some kids they don't admit guaranteed transfers if they take certain courses at another school first and do well in them. However going to the same college for 4 years is a pretty awesome thing as you develop friendships and good relatioships within your department which can lead to good recommendations. Sort of working your way up their "invisible" ladder.</p>
<p>I always get the impression from threads like these that any student who takes on a loan at all is an idiot, and could have gone somewhere debt-free. I'm not sure I see how that could be possible, unless you didn't care at all about the quality of your education, your environment, or what you decided to study. I'll have about $23,000 in loans when I graduate, half of them Stafford loans. I can see how I could have saved a couple thousand per year by (miserably) living with roommates, there's no way I could have saved the whole amount unless I did a 2 hour+ commute from home every single day.</p>
<p>My parents had a set amount of money that was inherited to pay for college...it would cover EFC and my car insurance, with maybe $2,000 left over each year. It looks like schools that cover full need are either small LACs that wouldn't offer any of the majors I was interested in, or elite schools that wouldn't admit me in the first place. All the schools that I applied to left a gap that was at least equal to the EFC, and on some they really didn't give any aid besides a few thousand dollars and a Stafford loan. My state only has one state school that offers my initial major (and probably none that offer my current major since it's sort of rare), and it's a not particularly good school in a not particularly good location...I would absolutely never want to go there. I didn't save the world in high school, so I can't take the "apply at a lower school and get tons of merit aid" approach, unless I wanted to be at a school way at the bottom of the academics pile.</p>
<p>So obviously I'm not supposed to take out loans because that's a very very dumb thing to do, and obviously there isn't going to be money to pay for anything without taking out loans, so what's the answer? Was I supposed to study something I didn't like at the local state college where all my classmates who harassed me for being a nerd with no life because I actually didn't fail my classes also go? For all people rant and rave about picking colleges based on "fit" on this board, they're pretty quick to turn around and tell you that you should have just gone to the local state school since obviously that's all you can afford. I don't get it. I don't see how you can come to an actual answer.</p>
<p>I also don't get where some people get all these living expenses numbers from. I live in an apartment and I keep careful track of what I spend, and I know I average between $1000 and $1100 a month. I don't pay car insurance and I don't really drive my car anywhere (maybe $20 a month for gas), so those expenses would be added, but still some people are throwing around numbers 3x that. Is it really expected that people will be spending $300-$400 per month on "entertainment" (whatever that is), that they will buy new cars right away, that they spend $100 every single time they go to the grocery store? That seems pretty ridiculous to me. Maybe I'm just weird, maybe I'm not actually living correctly?</p>
<p>No, it means that you have only $23,000 in loans, with an average interest rate of 5% (given the Staffords), which, paid off over 10 years, is a very reasonable $243.95 a month. Your situation is close to the average (average indebtedness for four-year college grads is around $19k, not counting credit cards.)</p>
<p>Your average gross income, over the next 10 years, would have to be $36,592 (at the 8% payoff rate.) Quite reasonable. Congratulations!</p>
<p>However, your situation is not anything like that of the kid going between $70k-$135k in debt.</p>
<p>There is no denying that excess debt is a serious matter for young people. It should also note that while good business makes money, good education cost money. Tuition represents only a small component of such cost. It is also clear that while the young students are at their primer age to learn, they most definitely are ill-prepared to pay for it. They really are at the society and family’s mercy in turn of finance. Together they need to determine whether the person involved worth such investment.</p>
<p>I have a lot of internationally known artists as clients (I am an atty) and what I have observed is that with the introduction of computers, piracy has increased and the desire for real artists has declined as has the price corp. are willing to pay for real talent. 25 years ago, I would have said if you have great talent (from thirdparties not your mother) go for it --it will pay off, now i would hesitate as I have seen a decrease over the last 7 years. Chances are if you have great talent you will be able to pay it off but if you are mediocre, go for cheap school just in case you need to pay it off with waiting tables. All of this assumes you are pursuing commercial art.....if you are a fine artist, again assess your unique style...usually takes a long time to develop a market. GOOD LUCK. The world needs more artist.</p>
<p>Blahdeblah, the world isn't as black and white as you paint it. Usually there are good, low cost alternatives to the pricey schools. A pricey schools or even a school that has high admission standards doesn't always produce the the better product or more successful students. Life just doens't work that way. There are usually good programs in every state that has a relatavily low cost of attendance.</p>
<p>If all you had was $30,000 in debt upon graduation, you were successful. Sadly, there are many kids with 70K, 80K, and even 100K++ in debt. These are the ones who I really feel sorry for. Your debt is manageable. Their debt management will be problematic.</p>
<p>BdB,</p>
<p>I am in agreement with your impression of posters on this board, and also with the decisions you have made.</p>
<p>Some people (myself included) view those 4 years of college as one of the most "defining" experiences of who you will be for the rest of your life. Other people consider it as just another 4 years of school. (Still others fall somewhere in between).</p>
<p>Some people value life "experiences" regardless of cost; others value financial security. Some people are motivated by risk and debt, others are bogged down by it.</p>
<p>So, regardless of what some on this board preach, the decision is ultimately your own. So long as you go into it armed with the facts, only you can make the proper decision for yourself.</p>
<p>No, at $100k-$135k in debt the decision is NOT ultimately yours, but that of the bank.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Some people value life "experiences" regardless of cost; others value financial security. Some people are motivated by risk and debt, others are bogged down by it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This remind me of what Napoleon used to say” Men of courage do not concern about the future—for who could control the time being, who will control the future. Since he treats future with contempt, future will be under his command.”</p>
<p>Inverse, and look what eventually happened to Napoleon</p>
<p>blah - congratulations on being prudent and judicious in getting through college with less than $30K in debt. As another poster states, that results in a manageable debt load. You will be well served by your frugality during college. </p>
<p>As for your question of "where do people come up with these costs?", those figures (estimates) were posted by me. As for your point about the cost of living ($300-$400 per month for "leisure" ?), I assumed a kid out of college for the first time, earning his/her first paychecks, wants to get out on the weekends, join a gym, etc. and is spending about $100/week at bars, restaurants, the gym, etc. That sounds like alot to a student living in a college situation, but that's not alot of money outside of a college setting. (A night out with friends for a few drinks and dinner can easily be $50. A flight to a buddy's wedding easily $300.) </p>
<p>Your post suggests that you are still in school. Trust me, the cost of living after college will far exceed your current estimates. For example, when you are commuting 10 miles each way to work in a 9 yearold car with dubious reliability and constant maintenance bills, that car will suddenly appear to be a liability, so you may take on a $200-$300 car payment for a better car, which will in turn hike your insurance bill. (Higher value cars are more expensive to insure.) The milk crate furniture which served you well in a college apartment mayl not work in your new apartment, so off to Ikea or wherever for some new stuff. See the trend ? Getting started after college takes far more cash than you think. And that use of cash will go on for several years. I know this because I went through it 25 years ago. </p>
<p>You suggested that this thread seems to suggest that anyone who takes on debt for collge is a fool. Absolutely not. The point of most of the cautionary folks on the thead, including me, is that it is FAR easier to take on debt than to pay it back. That sounds trite and self-evident, but our society at large has become too reliant on easy credit, and I'm sure that extends into student loans as well. Just because credit of $100K or more might be available to a student does not mean they should avail themselves of it. And it is a rare 18-20 yearold who understands how much money that is, and how long it'll take to pay it back.</p>
<p>Sorry if I sound like I'm lecturing. Just trying to soundly present the cautionary side of the argument.</p>
<p>"As for your question of "where do people come up with these costs?", those figures (estimates) were posted by me."</p>
<p>My estimates come from bank lending institutions.</p>
<p>Blahdeblah notes,"I always get the impression from threads like these that any student who takes on a loan at all is an idiot"</p>
<p>Actually, I started this thread because the vast majority of posts on CC do NOT discuss the cost of the school or the amount of debt that might be incurred. They almost always discuss fit. How many times do you see people asking about different expensive schools without mentioning the cost involved. Most of the thread involve the selectivity of the school or the fit of the school environment without discussing the cost or the amount of debt that might be incurred.</p>
<p>As Mini noted, I don't think that people are idiots taking on debt for a good school that has a good fit. I do, however, think that they are insane if they take on a large amount of debt because they substantially reduce their financial options. </p>
<p>I guess it is an easy balance: attend your dream school or let the high cost of attendance possibly kill your dreams in life. Check out the film major analogy presented in this thread.</p>
<p>We are willing to undertake the cost of college for S who got into Stanford/WUSTL/Brown PLME, whichever he chooses.</p>
<p>This may amount to 100k or so in debt, but it is parent debt -- which is different. While S is the first of 5 kids, and we have not saved nearly enough in advance, we will somehow find a way to make it happen. If this is the only thing I do for my kids it will be worth it. Without trying to be too judgmental, I would not do so to pay 150k to go to LMU or Santa Clara or some other "good, even very good, but not dream" school.</p>
<p>I think both the quality of a Stanford education and the lifelong value it will bring, not to mention the advantages for grad school are well worth it. It is worth noting that financially this is a huge undertaing for us. While we make good $$ we also live in a high cost state (CA) andwill have to make some long-term lifestyle adjustments. We are hoping that by the time #2 goes to college (in 3yrs) we will get a bit more in fin aid, but right now our pkg is maybe 20% of the cost. Even at that we feel fortunate. As a result, we may not be able to help out with a down payment for a house, etc. or other big ticket items later. Others may have different views, but for myself (who would have loved to have been able to go to any of those schools) this is an important financial priority.</p>
<p>Our 2 will be able to make college choices that won't be affected by financial considerations (it helps that the kids are 5 years apart, so we will not be paying two college tuitions at the same time). </p>
<p>But I don't know if we would be able to provide that for the kids if we had 3+ kids. Hats off to dadgrad and all others...</p>
<p>Is it really that common for parents to give their adult children money for a house in the US (or for grad school, for that matter)? My parents think I'm lucky that they're willing to pay ~$7,000 of our ~$22,000 EFC; I'd certainly never expect money for a down payment. Both my parents put themselves through college in Europe and have supported themselves without help from their parents since they graduated from high school. I understand that college is much more expensive here, which means that parents usually have to contribute, but it surprises me to hear that some parents feel it's expected of them to help their children financially even after they graduate from college. As far as I'm concerned, as soon as I have my B.A., I'm on my own... and if I'm able to, I'll probably pay back the $28,000 for my tuition, too.</p>