<p>I am about to go to grad school for landscape architecture and about to incur quite a bit of debt. I applied to many programs, but in the end it was between RISD and Ball State University. BSU offered me an assistantship, which is fairly uncommon for a proffesional program, but when it gets right down to it RISD is the better school to make me a well rounded individual. I have no formal training in art (never really thought i was artistic) and have a background in horticulture and the natural sciences, so a grad degree heavy in desgin would be ideal. I had the opportunity to go to Cornell, but I turned that one down because it is in the college of ag and not as heavy an emphasis as I would like in collaborative design. Do you think I am crazy to turn down a lucrative assistantship for a better education? Also, LA is a bit more lucrative than the fine arts, but do you think i will be okay to pay off 70K in debt in five years?</p>
<p>$70k at 7% (if you can get it) over 5 years is $1,388.08 per month. What do you think?</p>
<p>have you looked up occupational wages in the US Department of Labor's website for LA? That might put into perspective. If you can anticipate a starting salary of a certain amount, and compare that to the cost of housing in a community you might like to live in (your biggest cost...just find out rents for the kind of starter apartment you envision), and imagine yourself becoming employed readily (I think that's a good bet for LA...it's not fine arts, it's much more related to design and construction). Are you interested in moving to the South or Southwest or wherever new construction is happening? BUt not a requirement, eitehr; many well-established firms in the north will also need LA's. </p>
<p>Figure you'll start in someone else's firm and work your way up. With that starting salary (also look on the Dept of Labor site) against your rent, then add in taxguy's monthly loan repayment bill and see if it works for you.</p>
<p>RISD is admired all over the East and has been for a long time. They'd assume you had excellent desgn training (in an interview); whereas at Ball State, that David Letterman comes to mind so you have uphill sledding to show you got great visual training there (even after you get it). In actual fact, for interviews what they see in your portfolio presentation will trump whatever you say about your training. That, plus
contacts/networking between profs in both schools and the firms near and far. </p>
<p>I got a degree in LA from the U. of Mass at Amherst in Regional Planning. I did go out there without an internship in hand; just had enough saved from working 3 years to begin. By second semester, I was recognized as hardworking (notice: 3 years of working between college and grad school, so I had demonstrable work habits and the profs take note). So I was given some RA opportunities for grants the profs got from the US Dept of Agriculture. But that was pretty lucky, and none was advertised in advance; the jobs just came along as I attended. It took 2.5 years to do the program. I always wished I'd taken the other half-year so could do the LA and not just the policy-based Land Planning. From UMass I never could quite get those interviews that the Harvard LP grads got, so the prestige factor might have played a role within the same state, with THAT kind of competition! Nonetheless, I worked for a decade as a junior land use analyst, in consulting firms and government all over New England and for a while in Texas. Then came the 3 kids so I retrained in elementary education. Life happens and it's wonderful. You can't plan for everything, just try to make your best move now and trust that you'll continue to make life work for yourself. Taxguy is wise to cause everyone to factor in the money more carefully but try not to absolutely halt your most courageous plans, either. (Taxguy would agree with that spirit, too; he's just a fine educator re: money planning) </p>
<p>You've chosen a good, applied field. Much of what's being said about fine arts majors doesn't apply when you choose a design field. You're smart.</p>
<p>mini, that sure puts things in perspective. My combined home mortgage and car payment are less than $1388.08!</p>
<p>Ouitsinde, at 7.5%,which is more common now, you will be paying $1,403 per month in addition to taxes,which take about one-third of your pay, rent, car payments, food, insurance, gas,utilities etc.</p>
<p>Thus, If you earn $3,500 per month,which is $42,000 per year to start:</p>
<p>Income $3,500</p>
<p>Expenses</p>
<p>Taxes $900
Rent (shared appt) $900
Food $250
Gas and commuting $200
utilities $200
Phone and cell phone $150
Clothing and dry cleaning$100
Entertainment $300
insurance, car, life, etc $300+
(this assumes your company pays all health insurance
gifts to people $50
Misc $50 ( this is probably more)
-------------
Total expenses $$3,400
___________
Net amount to pay loans $100 per month</p>
<p>Thus, where are you going to get the difference? Take the lower cost option.</p>
<p>Sadly, most kids never run the numbers like this.</p>
<p>Here is another problem about obtaining student loans that was posted on Gather.inc</p>
<p>Beware Student Loan Borrowers
by Shelley L.
April 15, 2007 08:30 PM EDT (Updated: April 15, 2007 08:32 PM EDT)
to groups: Education, School and Society, Breakfast Club, Post the moon, Post It to Me, Gather Essentials: Money, Social Values Gather Essentials, Post It, We're Not Pickytags: predatory lending, telemarketers, student loans, money rating: 8.9/10 (8 votes) | comments: 9</p>
<p>email to a friend print this article
digg it del.icio.us
Like many other Americans, I recently graduated from college with the help of student loans. And, like many graduates, I’ve become extremely frustrated with the never-ending phone calls and emails from companies wanting to give me a better rate on my loan. The shocking part is, that many of these people (the ones I didn’t hang up on first) seem to know all about my loans. They know how much they were for, what college I attended and many other facts I don’t’ remember making public knowledge.</p>
<p>For a while I thought that is the price you pay to have student loans. I enjoy the fact that I can access my balance online. Though, in all honesty, after all the phone calls I’m becoming very confused. When I left school I was required to file an online exit form. In this form you discuss your likely payments and acknowledge you are aware of things such as deferments. I’m also under the impression that the government can sell your loans (though I’m a bit unclear on that part). For a while, I was very embarrassed about this. That is, until I began discussing the matter with some of my fellow graduates. They too have been getting the phone calls.</p>
<p>It is very hard to tell when these people call if they actually have your loan, or if they are trying to get you to consolidate and thus take your loan from another company. Even the snail mail from these companies mimics government mail and they usually have official sounding names that make them sound like government entities. In fact, after one that sounded particularly urgent, I called the student loan number listed on the web site that also gave me my exit interview, only to find out it wasn’t a government company. It was a company that buys/sells loans. </p>
<p>This is why I was not surprised when I saw and article in the Washington Post entitled Lenders Misusing Student Database. The article actually exemplified what has been bugging me so much in the last month since I’ve graduated. I’ve had companies calling me left and right asking me to consolidate. I told the last company I’d already consolidated and they told me they could beat the rate. I didn’t take them up on it. </p>
<p>I didn’t sign up for this part. At least, I don’t think I signed up for this part. I figured I’d take out the loans, pay them back and live happily ever after. I was careful not to take out loans I would not be able to pay back. Now, I’m confused which lender will help me live the happiest ever after, or even which lender is less likely to take me to the cleaners. Clearly the information provided to student loan borrowers is not adequate when the playing level has been slanted in favor of loan companies who are receiving much more information than they should be.</p>
<p>Gotcha beat. My home mortgate is 21% of that, and I have no car payments.</p>
<p>Of course, someone in my situation could afford $1388.08 per month. ;)</p>
<p>Mini, how many kids today can buy a home and have a home mortgage, based on today's real estate values, of 21% of what I noted? Be real!</p>
<p>Like, 0.1%, and they all live in a trailer park on the northern tier of North Dakota.</p>
<p>The point I was trying to make was that students should consider the opportunity cost of taking such large loans. For instance, you could have a home and a car and other stuff vs. making the monthly loan payment. Or, you could have the latitude to take a job that doesn't offer the highest salary. I know now the dream school seems tempting, but in a surprisingly short time, the sacrifices will become very real.</p>
<p>Yes, "in a short time the sacrifices will become very real" but if these sacrifices are confined to a five or ten year period, meanwhile you're still living, working, growing personally and professionally...</p>
<p>So, after the sacrifices occur, you'll continue to have the education for a lifetime. A career like LA is a lifetime thing (for most people who study it). Remember to think long-range, too. </p>
<p>That said, I support my D who wants to study elem ed in the least expensive place possible, b/c the salaries won't be any different whether she attends Brown or Rhode Island U. But for a profession such as LA, it actually could repay better, over the course of a lifetime, to get the more pretigious education. That's why my comparison of the UMass vs. Harvard grad degree in Landscape Architecture is worth considering. I struggled to get hired and those other grads could waltz into interviews. Their training was OUTSTANDING; mine was serviceable. I paid (in today's money) $5K per year, they paid $40K per year for grad school. Their careers far outweigh mine, in vision, scope and salary.
(I wouldn't trade places emotionally, I'm just trying to compare bucks)</p>
<p>paying3tuitions and others, all I can say is to take a special look at post 225,which outlines the various living costs expected upon graduation and compares these costs to the expected salary. I think you will find the conclusion very disturbing.</p>
<p>By the way, my salary numbers were a bit inflated. Average starting salaries for Landscape Archtects was $36,140. See <a href="http://www.princetonreview.com/cte/profiles/facts.asp?careerID=179%5B/url%5D">http://www.princetonreview.com/cte/profiles/facts.asp?careerID=179</a></p>
<p>Thus, the situation is even worse than I presented in post 225</p>
<p>I've been reading this thread over the past few days, and it's given me a lot of good insight. Thanks guys.</p>
<p>But I'm still undecided, and some input would be greatly appreciated.</p>
<p>I'm stuck between 3 schools- NYU Stern, USC Marshall, and UMD Smith. (Yes, I am a business major) My EFC is a gross misrepresentation of my family's actual finances; mom makes $150k from two jobs but is quitting one next year due to health concerns, brother will go back to being a dependent next year when he goes back to school, and we're a bit shaky, I don't know why... all that fun stuff. They can cover room, board, and expenses. So basically, tuition goes to loans. </p>
<p>At USC, merit aid brings tuition down to $28k/yr.
At NYU, tuition - merit aid = $31k/yr.
At UMD, tuition - merit aid = $16k/yr</p>
<p>So, if I factor in possible extra expenses, my total loans:
USC = $115k
NYU = $130k
UMD = $70K</p>
<p>I'm mainly considering NYU because of parental pressure. It's close, and I won't have to spend on airfare.</p>
<p>USC is my dream school. I am dead set on going, it's pretty much my haven, I love it there. I like Maryland, but it doesn't give me the academic freedom to pursue the majors/minors I want, and it doesn't have the alumni network, prestige, and opportunities USC does. However, if I wimp out on the loans, I'm still considering Maryland.</p>
<p>What I'm asking is, how advisable is 4 years at USC if I will graduate with better chances of landing a higher-paying job? How hard will it be to pay off my loans if I go into a business career?</p>
<p>IF you are asking me for my opinion, I would take the lowest net cost of the three. I don't understand why UMD is so expensive. What is your home state? Can you go to an instate school?</p>
<p>Frankly, if I were in a position where my parents were going to make little future income and had some siblings also going to attend college, I would choose the least costly solution even if this means attending a community college for the first two years! I would certainly choose one of the state universities of my state for the other two years and work like a "big dog" during summers and during the year in order to avoid having 70K in debt. Consider resident assistant options. Your total debt for undergraduate study shouldn't be more than 40K, if that! If you have a high college debt, you will probably regret it for a number of years. See my post numbered 225. It will REALLY open your eyes.</p>
<p>Also when you run the numbers for estimates of your college costs, it usually is more than you estimated. For example, besides room, board, tuition and fees, and supplies and books, you have health insurance, entertainment, food outside of the cafeteria, laundry, trips back home, car, gas, insurance, health insurance etc.</p>
<p>I'd like to know what bank is going to loan you $115k?</p>
<p>Have you checked out whether there is even an issue to discuss?</p>
<p>At 7% interest (which I doubt you can get), paid out over 10 years, </p>
<p>NYU = $1,509.41 each month
USC = $1,335.25 each month
UMD = $812.76</p>
<p>I have no idea how hard it will be to pay them off. </p>
<p>Debt Salary Wizard - <a href="http://www.academicfinancing.com/tools/DebtSalaryWizard/index.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.academicfinancing.com/tools/DebtSalaryWizard/index.htm</a>
estimates the amount you need to earn gross to be able to pay off your loans, using the industry standard of a maximum 8% of gross income (this, by the way, is the standard for the loans, which is why I don't think anyone is going to lend you the money):</p>
<p>To pay off NYU would require an average annual gross salary for the first 10 years of $226,411.53</p>
<p>To pay off USC would require an average annual gross salary for the first 10 years of $200,287.13.</p>
<p>To pay off UMD would require an average annual gross salary for the first 10 years of $121,913.90</p>
<p>Mini, I completely agree with you about how he can even get that loan or even pay it off.</p>
<p>Moreover, the gross salary requirements that you noted are very low because they dont' take into acount living expenses or taxes. It will be more like double or even triple the numbers that you presented. See my post numbered 225 above.</p>
<p>Sorry, Marlikesithot, Schools like NYU and USC are, in my opinion, out of the question for kids whose parents are financially strapped UNLESS they give you a whopping scholarship package.</p>
<p>Actually, they do (or so I understand). Hardly matters, though. What bank is going to lend funds on the assumption that in the first 10 years out of college, a business major is going to average $200K plus?</p>
<p>two points - </p>
<p>first, the landscape architecture program at Ball State is excellent. it is VERY well known throughout the midwest and very well respected in Chicago and thereabouts. i know this cause a close friend who lives in Miami has a brother who lives in Chicago. the brother had worked in another industry in Chicago for many years and decided to go back to school for LA and he went to Ball State for the strength of its program and its reputation in the Chicago area where he wanted to live and work.</p>
<p>second, a student cannot by himself borrow $100+k for college tuition, but his parents can (assuming they are credit worthy and willing). the families i know who are doing this have an arrangement where they are making a deal with the kid that s/he will pay back the parents after graduation. so in the folks i know where the kid says they're borrowing that amount, it's really the parents. or the parents cosign the loan, which i guess is the same thing. maybe taxguy can explain. but yes, no bank is going to loan that amount to a kid, and real "student loans" aren't allowed to go that high. there may be private bank "student loans" that the bank calls student loans, but no doubt they must be cosigned in order for the student to access the $$$.</p>
<p>marlikesit - I will not be so presumptuous to advise you what you SHOULD do, But given the family circumstances you describe it appears that you should be highly sensitive to the debt issue. As a busienss major jsut starting out, you cannot expect an outsized income (unless you end of on Wall Street or some such). </p>
<p>Hence, you should (arguably) match the cost of college, and resulting loans, to your propsects coming out. Do the figures (and some other posters have done them for you.) Debt in excess of $100K is highly like to smother you in your first 5 years out. Long after the aura of USC has faded you'll be servicing that debt for many years.</p>
<p>Like I said, I won;t tell you what to do. But be very clear-eyed about the debt burden you are looking at with each option. Better yet, you are a business student, right ? So fire up an excel spreadsheet, and do the following cursory analysis: First Job - Budget:</p>
<p>Salary: $50,000
Taxes: - 12,000 (full state and federal tax load)
Rent: -12,000 (1,000/month x 12)
Car Insur -1500
Gas -1500 ($100+/month)
Liesure/travel -5000
Clothes - 2000 (just starting out ?)
Food - 5000 ($100/week)
401K -5000 (max out 401k at 10% of salary)
Car Pay -4000 (350/month x 12)
School Loan -12,000 (assume $1000/month) </p>
<p>Free Cash flow: negative $10K </p>
<p>Sorry to be so tough on this issue, but the laws of cash flow are as imutable as the laws of physics. The numbers don't lie. For those that expect to take on huge debt for college because they cannot rely on family or others while in school, there is always the danger that you will be reliant AFTER college due to the debt. </p>
<p>A simple spreadsheet tells the tale. By the way, you might be able to get back to breakeven cash flow by driving a $1,000 car (no payments) and not paying into your 401K (in other words, not putting any savings away, and forgoing the employer match, in order to make your debt payments).</p>
<p>If you are set on choosing one of the three, one way to determine whether USC is a smart choice would be to investigate whether a degree from USC will likely bring in at least $6,276 (after taxes) more in income than a UMD degree.</p>
<p>This would be the difference in loan payments per year. (Based on the earlier poster's numbers).</p>