<p>CLdad and inverse - Thank you</p>
<p>I just spoke to a parent who told their kids, "work hard so you can get into the top school possible."</p>
<p>Frankly, I think this is the wrong message. What I suggest is the correct message is, "Work hard so you can get a scholarship and get out with no debts." or "work hard so that you can get into the best college we can afford and, maybe, even get a great scholarship so that you have no debts on graduation." </p>
<p>Frankly, I personally think folks are crazy sending kids to very expensive, name-brand private schools in lieu of a free ride to their state university, especially if the state university has decent programs and has good offerings in the child's interest. I do know that there are other reasons not to do this such as kids with special needs, fiancial issues aren't a problem etc. However, absent that, if money could be an issue. I would suggest affordability trumps most other factors.</p>
<p>Taxguy--Do you have any tips on how to get the 'free ride' to a state school? Are there more opportunities for state scholarships through sports or academics? It seems like from what I am seeing on the board that state schools don't have the scholarship and FA programs that the high end private colleges have. I saw some posts on CC that were showing that the aid package offered by the high end schools actually made the expensive school cheaper than the small FA offered by the state school.</p>
<p>A Free Ride to anywhere sounds good to most people's pocket books!</p>
<p>I certainly didn't mean to criticize. Actually it was an attempt at a joke that you obviously didn't take as one (a jibe at some of the weird stuff that I have come upon perusing the threads of CC). Please accept my apology and let's move on.</p>
<p>Ivy2B....in our state, a "free ride" scholarship is awarded to every valedictorian in the state. My D never intended to apply to the state U as it did not fit her college criteria. However, she was afforded a free ride there by virtue of being the school's valedictorian. It's a nice deal if the school fits what you want in a college. Every state works differently, I assume, in this regard. My D's college list was created without the state school on it and so she had OTHER safety schools that were better fits. The state U's app was free to her with the free ride and she was selected to the Honors College, and so with no effort to submit it, she did pass it in, but her list was created with reaches, matches and safeties without this school counting as one of them.</p>
<p>Further, good merit aid is possible at many schools if one applies and is willing to attend schools a step or two below those where they are qualified. The last part of your post is comparing financial aid packages at some private expensive schools vs state publics. But need based aid is not the same as merit scholarships. So, the comparison with merit scholarships is not so much private vs. public but more the "level" of the college.</p>
<p>I always told my older daughter that if she worked hard and got good grades, she'd have more choices. That's pretty much what happened. She had some choices with decent FA offers, and some disappointments. As far as free rides at public schools, I agree that they are hard to get unless the student is truly at the top. However, a very good student (say top 5-10% of graduating class) can get some good offers from in-state schools, and some better offers from agressively-recruiting LACs (for example). These two types of offers can virtually equalize each other so that there is a choice. If the student is in love with the LAC, or the State U, great.</p>
<p>Ivy2b asks,"Taxguy--Do you have any tips on how to get the 'free ride' to a state school?"</p>
<p>Response: I can't speak for all states;however, Maryland state schools offer a substantial scholarship up to a complete "free ride" for top students. If a student is good enough to get into an Ivy, Tufts, top LAC etc., they could probably receive a substantial scholarship from any of our state schools. If you couple this with the fact that tution at most state schools is one-fourth that of the better known private schools, this makes the state schools a REAL DEAL.</p>
<p>One of my friend's kids, applied to Princeton and various other top schools. Although he only got into Maryland, scholars program, he had a substantial scholarship. I think he only had to be for room, board, and tuition and fees a total of $7,000 per year based solely on merit. A top private school would cost at least $42,000 or more per year. Just run the numbers.</p>
<p>Both he and his parents are thrilled at this incredibly low cost. His parents have been puting away money for any graduate school cost because this kid wants to go for a PhD in Aerospace Engineering. It was, in my opinion, a smart move by everyone. Frankly, had he gotten into Princeton and had to pay the full amount of tuition, he would have gone to Maryland anyway.</p>
<p>Ivy2B , Each student/family situation is different so there is coexistence of different views. The way I see it, education is an expensive process. Tuition represents only a small part. College age is the prime age for learning but you cant expect young people to have money to pay for it. That is where scholarship and family support come in. Your son is still young and you still have some time to plan ahead. There is nothing wrong to encourage your son to reach his dream, but you could help him by planning his financial support ahead of time. The better you prepare financially, the higher chance his dream will become reality.</p>
<p>Whether education worth its cost or not is a value judgment. In my biased opinion, education is the best investment possible and it is an asset no one could ever take away. Like you I asked my kids to aim at their top dream school. Fortunately for them, their grandparents put aside sufficient fund for their education so that cost is never a consideration. (This was not the case for my father; he relied so much on scholarship.)
It is funny the other day, my wife and I were talking about set up education fund for our grandchildren, although none of the grandchildren is in remote existence as yet.</p>
<p>
[quote]
His parents have been puting away money for any graduate school cost because this kid wants to go for a PhD in Aerospace Engineering. It was, in my opinion, a smart move by everyone.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It is quite common to get financial support for Ph.D. study, at least in science and engineering. During their Ph.D. studies, my three older kids all receive fellowship or assistantship. One of them actually has a six figure saving from these support.</p>
<p>inverse,</p>
<p>That is a very good point. Many people on this board live by the philosophy "save money for grad school" by attending the cheapest possible alternative in undergrad.</p>
<p>Not only does this philosophy put the proverbial cart before the horse (will student X actually end up choosing to go or being accepted to grad school?), but also, many businesses will pay for the student to earn his/her graduate degree.</p>
<p>Just something to keep in mind.</p>
<p>Bay, even if they kid doesn't go to grad school or gets a fellowship,saving for graduate school isn't a waste. The money can be used for grandkids or used to support your future retirement.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The money can be used for grandkids...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Hmmm. Is it just me, or is there something nonsensical about not spending money on one's own college education in order to save it for one's grandkids' college educations?</p>
<p>Bay notes,"Is it just me, or is there something nonsensical about not spending money on one's own college education in order to save it for one's grandkids' college educations"</p>
<p>Resonse, it's just you....just kidding.</p>
<p>Bay, For years, I was of the opinion that spending money on the best education possible was the way to go for my family. I always thought, as is the theme here in CC, that the best education meant the most prestigious, or hardest to get admitted to or best fit regardless of cost.</p>
<p>I hereby admit that after seeing a lot of successful and unsuccessful folks in my life, I have changed my views.</p>
<p>Frankly, I see no difference between those that spent large sums on their undergraduate school and those that didn't. I see no difference between those that attended a pricey name-brand school and those that attended a state university. The Princeton study seems to be congruent with my experience.</p>
<p>To me, unless there are some compelling special needs involved, the best school is usually the lowest cost net of any scholarships offered. </p>
<p>I cann't fathom why someone would cave into their kids desire to attend an out of state school and pay out of state tuition if the same program was offered in state and if the program was good.</p>
<p>I met a young lady who was the front desk gal at the hotel that I am in today. She is from Pennsylvania but attending George Mason here in Virginia majoring in travel and event management. I asked her if Penn State has a strong program in this area,which she noted that they did. However, she just wanted to go out of state, which caused a significant increase in college cost. </p>
<p>I also shutter when I see parents tell me that they will pay whatever cost for their kids education even at the risk of sacrificing their retirement! How nutty is that?</p>
<p>Yes, I understand that commitment that they have to their kids;however, sacrificing retirement is insane. </p>
<p>An older study noted that of all people who reach age 65, only 2% can retire with the same standard of living that they had before retirement. The rest must either continue working or live on some form of charity. Articles have been published about older couples living on dog food because they have to live primarily on social security and didn't plan for their retirement correctly.</p>
<p>Do these people really want to be required to live with their kids in the future because of this philosophy? Is this doing them a favor?</p>
<p>Grrrr, I get so angry when I hear this.</p>
<p>Quote: "Articles have been published about older couples living on dog food because they have to live primarily on social security and didn't plan for their retirement correctly."</p>
<p>Common sense tell me this is not true because I know cooking food from scratch is definitely cheaper than any type of can food, yes and that means dog food.</p>
<p>Furthermore, I don't like these types of reports, they tend to scare people unnecessary, like the report where one needs to have at least 70% of your pre-retirement income in order to retire comfortably. They seem to come from people who want you to put money in their institution. </p>
<p>Now back to the original topic.</p>
<p>As a beneficiary of my grandparents, I am very grateful they took the time and effort to plan for the future.</p>
<p>Well, my mom is a good example of the non-planner. My parents were middle class and saved nothing for my education nor did they save for their retirement in any amount that was substantial--they thought social security would take care of them. My dad died suddenly at age 58, leaving my mom, age 52 with some bills and no life insurance. My grandfather paid for all of my college education, paid off my parents house, and bought me a car. Thank goodness for grandpa!</p>
<p>Now at age 39, I (and my husband) have paid for 1/2 a house for my mom in S. Cal. I also help with some of her bills and got her set up for long term care insurance--with paying for the house, so she wouldn't have house payments, I knew I wouldn't have money left if she became ill. She lives off of social security and is on disability. She doesn't eat dog food, but there is nothing extra. So there will be no looking to my parents to pay for my kid's education. In fact we get to fund all our retirement too--we are self employed, so no one is matching or donating to our cause. I don't believe for a second that SS will pay me a red cent of the money I have contributed, so forget that idea. So I have to pay for my mom's care, my retirement, and my kids college fund....of course making too much money to qualify for FA, but not enough to be "rich". It feels like a pretty daunting task. My parents faced nothing in comparison.</p>
<p>It feels a bit unfair...heck, when my mom was my age her youngest (only) child was a freshman in college! I have an 8 year old and 12 year old. She can't figure out why I work so hard and don't have time to come over for coffee. She didn't pick me up from school or go to my sporting events--I work basically two jobs and still do the "soccer mom" thing. Sorry, guess I am just venting here....</p>
<p>It just seems like somehow, my kids should be able to get some kind of financial aid, but I know that the reality of that is pretty bleak. Since my mom isn't an official dependent, there will be no break for me helping her. We have saved and sacrificed in order to create assets to work for us in our retirement years and we have even started a college fund for the kids. I wish we could be "rewarded" for our efforts, but we will be too "rich" to qualify. The kids are very bright--but probably not geniuses. I just get a bit depressed at times trying to figure this all out.</p>
<p>Toorichforaid notes,"Furthermore, I don't like these types of reports, they tend to scare people unnecessary"</p>
<p>Response: I REALLY hope these articles scare folks. It isn't unnecessary. There are many studies that show that as much as 40% or more of the current generation isn't saving enough for retirement.</p>
<p>Moreover, many people get laid off, downsized, rightsized etc. Saving for retirement and having a financial cushion is crucial. </p>
<p>As far as I am concerned: yes, scare people into doing this a much as possible!</p>
<p>As for your conception that the articles about eating dog food doesn't make common sense. just do a search in the Miami Herald among other newspapers. They certainly did occur. If someone has to live on social security and doesn't have money saved for retirement, they are going to find life pretty hard</p>
<p>When I went to college, I got on a train and travelled 2000+ miles from home to attend a State U that was probably no better than the State U 20 miles from my home. At the time, I had never been away from home on my own. I really needed the experience of living away from home. In many regards, it was more valuable than the academics.</p>
<p>When I went away to college the extra cost for OOS tuition was about $400 for the entire year. Now OOS costs are often $10-15k/year higher and many families cannot afford or justify the costs. I understand the reason for the OOS costs. Taxpayers in one State don't want to subsidize the costs of OOS students. It is too bad that States do not have some sort of reciposity arrangements to keep the extra costs down. For many kids being on their own and living in a different geographical area is valuable.</p>
<p>Luckily my state, as well as some surrounding states have reciprocity. From what I've heard, Minnesota has one of the best arrangements. But only surrounding states, so you wouldn't get those longed for 1000s of miles. </p>
<p>My limited observation is that going far away to college seems to be a geographic phenomena. And socio economic. Quite prevalent in the East, some in the midwest, less so in the west. Kid #1 went far enough-12 hours drive, and I found it a major and expensive pain. Especially as a similar quality education was available in a neighboring state for half the cost and hassle. There are other ways to get away from home, study abroad being my favorite, as well as summer jobs in different parts of the country. Neither of these involve out of state tuition. </p>
<p>I appreciate this discussion, burned my eyes to little red knobs a few days ago reading the entire thread late at night, fascinated. And was sufficiently affirmed by Taxman's stand on finances, that we went for the best possible financial aid offers for my daughters, who finalized their decisions a few days ago. Great places regardless, but I was waffling with some of that 'maybe choice B really is better, and am I being selfish to think about the finances so much." Yes, my retirement is worth funding. Thank you.</p>
<p>New England has a reciprocal deal amongst some in-state institutions that discounts the OOS costs; however, it does not apply to every major, it is only for programs that aren't duplicated within your home state institution. </p>
<p>When we had all the FA offers, we made a spreadsheet where we tallied up the costs of tuition & room & board, subtracted grant money and scholarship money, and applied a rating between 1-10 for travel costs. We figured books & fees were similar between various institutions. We then came up with the costs that we as parents were expected to pay.</p>
<p>My daughter didn't choose the least expensive school on her list, but she also didn't choose the most expensive, either. And all the schools were within $800 of each other (with 1 outlier on the high end coming in at $9000 more than the next most expensive.) So we threw out the high end outlier, threw out the schools she decided she didn't like after visiting, and then she picked the one she liked best from the remaining schools. </p>
<p>We are going to have to borrow some to meet those costs, I'm not taking money from my retirement plans to pay.</p>
<p>Ivy2B- the threshold for declaring your mom a dependent may be lower than you think. Worth an hour with a CPA/Financial planner to learn the rules. I know people in your situation who regularly stuff $200 in twenties into mom's wallet after every visit.... that's wonderful and generous and for sure preserves her dignity, but if mom is a dependent and meets the legal definition, then start to keep accurate records so you can take the deduction, perhaps qualify for more college aid, etc.</p>
<p>If you bought half mom's house and it's in her name, it's no longer your asset, and won't be counted for FA. So, your generosity may in fact have a payout for you.... check the online calculators to be sure.</p>
<p>I sympathize with you as a fellow member of the sandwich generation myself. I think it pays to take the long view.... over time, your kids will be much more appreciative that you didn't burden them with your care post retirement, than they ever could be for paying full freight for college. They can always get a loan to get them over the hump for college; nobody is lending them money to pay for a CNA to give you a bath.</p>