Should Your School's History Be Considered?

<p>I would really like an informed opinion on this, so I've decided to post here in the Parents Forum (my first time here!). I'm a rising senior.</p>

<p>My school has had a very successful past with some fantastic schools like Princeton (8-9 admits), Harvard (3-4), Cornell (6-7), Penn (4-5), and Dartmouth (3-4) but less so with Yale (1), Stanford (0), and MIT (0). Many applicants overlapped between the former and latter lists. 5 people applied early to Yale, but the only person to get in was a legacy who applied RD and had already been accepted into Harvard SCEA. The only person who got in the year before that was also a legacy and had also already been admitted to Harvard SCEA.</p>

<p>My question is, does it make sense that my school's history with these institutions can help predict my chances for this year? And if so, should I take that into account? Because I want to apply EA/SCEA to a competitive school, and my first choice for an early application for the past three years has been Yale, while my second choice was always Harvard. </p>

<p>I understand that many people say both schools are crapshoots for everybody, but the fact is that we've gotten more kids into Harvard than Yale for the past four years. One kid was even deferred then rejected from Stanford but admitted into Harvard RD. They really seem to like my school.</p>

<p>And in all honesty, after some research I've found that Harvard might be (very) slightly more fitting for me than Yale in terms of the strength of my prospective program, but it's just the emotional attachment that keeps me from switching immediately. So, considering my school's history, would it make sense for me to apply to Harvard early instead of Yale?</p>

<p>Thanks to all in advance!</p>

<p>You should apply early to the school that you want to attend!!!!!!</p>

<p>I'm not trying ot belittle your question, but it is coming off as "which do I want - chocolate or vanilla?" You've got some time, work on your apps, think about something else, let this simmer around in your mind, maybe visit again - you don't have to decide until the SCEA deadline. Put this kind of effort into your safety schools.</p>

<p>Careful of Yale early, though - depending on your financial/IRM/hooks situation.</p>

<p>Yes, what high school you attend can matter. I've had admissions officers tell me that they track the performance of kids by high school and use that data to help determine suitability of future applicants from that school. Having said that, any competent GC office will be sending a school profile that includes colleges where graduates have been admitted over a multi-year period. So, the Yale rep assigned to your area will be very aware that a number of kids from your school are going to Harvard, et al.</p>

<p>Here's a suggestion. Find out which Yale rep is responsible for your school and send him/her a letter explaining that Yale is your first choice, but that you've been led to believe that applying there is futile because of the dismal record of acceptance at Yale from your high school. Be respectful. Ask if there is any truth to this and, if so, what you must do to become an attractive candidate.</p>

<p>Yulsie,</p>

<p>Can you explain what you mean?</p>

<p>Tarhunt - That's a really good idea. Thanks!</p>

<p>Yulsie - Yeah, can you please elaborate?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Here's a suggestion. Find out which Yale rep is responsible for your school and send him/her a letter explaining that Yale is your first choice, but that you've been led to believe that applying there is futile because of the dismal record of acceptance at Yale from your high school. Be respectful. Ask if there is any truth to this and, if so, what you must do to become an attractive candidate.

[/quote]
I believe proactively seeking out the Yale rep is a great idea. That said, I would not recommend asking these questions. While the Yale rep might be OK with the questions they also could take them in a negative light ... one possibility ... Do we want a kid who believes Yale blackballs schools and does not judge each applicant on their own merits? Contact the rep and make all the conversations and questions positive about yourself and positive about Yale. It usually is possible to ask a similar question but with a positive spin ... maybe something like ... I love Yale; what qualities would make an applicant from XYZ HS stand out as applicant to Yale? ... turn the discussion of how you get accepted and not why others were rejected.</p>

<p>Welcome to the parent's forum (see we really don't eat students and spit them out ;) )</p>

<p>I agree with 3togo's assessment.</p>

<p>Yale has a couple of information sessions in NJ coming up. If it is not too far from you, I would recommend that you register to attend so you can meet your regional rep live.</p>

<p>Information Sesson on YALE</p>

<p>October 3, 2006 at 7:00 PM</p>

<p>Millburn High School (Library)
462 MILLBURN AVE
MILLBURN, NJ 07041-1368
United States</p>

<p>Marcia Landesman, Associate Director of Admissions, will discuss academics, student life, admission and financial aid. Please bring your parents and friends! </p>

<p><a href="http://admissions.yale.edu/events/?id=4b9bdf6a-9361-457d-ba42-f631786c02e8%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://admissions.yale.edu/events/?id=4b9bdf6a-9361-457d-ba42-f631786c02e8&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Yale Information Session</p>

<p>October 17, 2006 at 7:00 PM</p>

<p>Mainland Regional High School - Library
1301 OAK AVE
LINWOOD, NJ 08221-1653
United States</p>

<p>Liz Kinsley, Assistant Director of Admissions,
will discuss academic programs, campus life,
admissions, and financial aid. </p>

<p><a href="http://admissions.yale.edu/events/?id=babbaf4f-3d70-4713-b3bc-b624b43213b9%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://admissions.yale.edu/events/?id=babbaf4f-3d70-4713-b3bc-b624b43213b9&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Yes, schools do use past enrollements from your HS when reviewing your transcripts. If the historical performance of past students represents well during their time at university, it is less probable that your grades would be deflated during the application process. So even if certain ivies accepted more from your HS, if they did poorly once enrolled, it could effect your getting in the door.</p>

<p>When you are talking about the small numbers of acceptances, it will take a few more years to have any sort of a pattern as to whether kids at your school have had a better chance at H rather than Y. I cannot conceive of a Yale or any college rep, saying that there is an issue with any particular school, unless there is some big situation. The person most likely to be able to shed light on this picture would be your school GC. It could be as simple as H having an adcom well associated with your highschool, or friendly with the GC or having the kids having had a great success at H. I know that at one of boys' schools, there was a definite connection between the school and the higher than avg acceptance rate to a university. The school did not make any secret about it.</p>

<p>Hopefully, they will use a sibling's (from the same h.s.) stellar college academic performance to help them decide to accept her younger sister. If they look at others from our h.s. who attend the same university, it is probably not as accurate a picture. We're keeping our fingers crossed for Daughter #2!!!!</p>

<p>When son was developing his list we checked these kinds of stats and the results were extremely interesting to say the least. This was the case not only for the most elite and selective schools, but for the match and safeties as well. There was a definite pattern that you could track over a number of years that clearly pointed to a special relationship between our HS and many of the colleges. When you are trying to narrow down a list and there is more than one place that could be a good fit, I think it is definitely to your advantage to have this information. </p>

<p>I agree with 3togo as far as being more subtle in your approach with the Yale regional rep, and also with cpt as far as approaching your own guidance counselor to shed light on the situation, if possible. You may have to read between the lines here, in that s/he may not come right out and tell you the reason.</p>

<p>At our HS there is a rumor, supposedly true, that one of the Ivies blackballed our school for many years due to a kid who reneged on an ED commitment. This year a couple of kids finally got in there, but I don't think either of them enrolled, which brings up another factor the colleges may consider- the historical yield of candidates from your HS. The major factor could very well be the working relationship of the regional rep with the guidance counselors at your school, but beware as this can change quickly, as when a new regional rep is assigned to the area or new enrollment priorities are set by the college. Definitely seek out the regional rep at the events as sybbie suggests, and/or email to state interest and ask questions you can't answer by looking up on the website.</p>

<p>Clearly, some people have had a different experience with admissions reps than I have had. I never used the word "blackball," nor would the Yale rep I got to know have used it, I suspect. </p>

<p>In my interviews, I found almost all the ad. officers I talked to were very willing to talk about realities, dispel myths, and the like.</p>

<p>Personally, I don't think there would be any problem asking if there is some pattern behind lack of acceptances at Yale for people from my high school. It could be (and very well may be) a statistical blip. Or it could represent something else. I don't think a Yale rep would have a problem answering that question honestly.</p>

<p>What some of you seem to be recommending sounds a bit to me like "sucking up."</p>

<p>But here's another possibility. Send your Yale rep a link to this thread to let him know that you got conflicting advice and are not sure what to do.</p>

<p>
[quote]
At our HS there is a rumor, supposedly true, that one of the Ivies blackballed our school for many years due to a kid who reneged on an ED commitment. This year a couple of kids finally got in there, but I don't think either of them enrolled, which brings up another factor the colleges may consider- the historical yield of candidates from your HS.

[/quote]
I've also heard stories to that effect and believe they are true. Some years its rumored that colleges will send a "message" to a HS by rejecting all applicants if it thinks the GC isn't doing a good enough job to get them their fair share of good applicants.</p>

<p>roshke - Good point about the historical yield rate. I guess it doesn't help that the sole Yale admit last year didn't attend...</p>

<p>cptofthehouse - The thing is, I don't think a college would blacklist a school for more than 2-3 years. I think they would just make an impressionable statement and then move on (like what mikemac said). Otherwise everyone would seriously come from the same schools every year and the colleges would miss out on some great candidates.</p>

<p>OpiefromMayberry - I never thought of it that way. Sweet insight.</p>

<p>sybbie719 - Wow, I wouldn't have even looked for those since the schedule a couple months ago didn't have any events in NJ. Thanks!</p>

<p>-</p>

<p>After a lot of thinking and discussing, I'm fully decided that I'll pursue Yale early just because I feel like I should apply early based on where I want to go, not where I will get in. And even though my reasons are primarily emotional, I'm a pretty intuitive guy and so I'm ready to run with that. So I guess we can forget about that part of this thread. =P</p>

<p>-</p>

<p>But there's still the question of whether my school could actually be blacklisted by some institutions and whether others favor us in particular for some reason. Oh and about blacklisting - apparently it's not so much about the fact that somebody lied or somebody chose another school; it's about their reflection on the guidance department and college advising system at the high school. Like if a counselor allowed a student to apply early to both Yale and Harvard, the school would probably be less likely to trust that counselor, or worse, the entire guidance department/school, at least for a couple years. Here's some stoires I've heard/know:</p>

<p>I've heard quite a bit about blacklisting concerning my school.</p>

<p>Princeton - I heard one girl was either deferred or waitlisted at Princeton one year, and so she got her father to call the admissions office incessantly. They eventually let her in, but then Princeton admitted very few students (1-2 people/year) each year for 2-3 years. Since then, they have regularly accepted about 10 kids annually.</p>

<p>Yale - I heard that two years ago someone applied SCEA to both Harvad and Yale, and chose Harvard. All I know is that the only 2 people who have been accepted to Yale since then were both legacies with phenomenal profiles, and they both got into Harvard early, and only one went to Yale in the end. Nobody got in SCEA last year, and they were all rejected in the end. They went on to schools like Columbia, Northwestern, Dartmouth, and Duke (one of I think 15 to receive a full merit scholarship as an A.B. scholar or something).</p>

<p>Harvard - This past year, someone got in SCEA but had their admission rescinded because they were caught lying on their application. I haven't been able to see the consequences of that, but something tells me to expect fewer acceptances this year.</p>

<p>Stanford - I don't know why, but they haven't taken anyone from my school in at least three years. As I said before, one kid applied early this past year and was deferred and rejected from Stanford, and then admitted into Harvard RD.</p>

<p>Princeton literally accepted almost nobody from my school for a while, and then we saw a burst of acceptances, and it's the opposite with Yale and Stanford. Cornell and Penn have about 4 times as many students from my school currently enrolled than Harvard or Yale (my school releases the number of students attending each institution in the past three years in the school profile), but they've been accepting fewer students in the past year or two. Since there have been distinguishable periods of many acceptances and nearly all rejections for some schools, it would make sense that impressionable preferences DO have some influence - whether it's rewarding or punishing the guidance department, or based on the historical yield from that school, or based on the academic performance of students from that school. But I'd still like some more opinions! Especially on how to be successful at a school that isn't as fond of your school as you are of them.</p>

<p>Oh and the problem with my situation is that my guidance counselor just came to my school last year, so I don't think she knows much about my school's relationships with most colleges. Although she did tell me that she had a long, thorough conversation with a Brandeis representative, and he's really enthusiastic about getting some kids from my school in particular. So I guess the process is very human and open to influence, right?</p>

<p>Just two quick comments - I'm not sure I'd believe the story about the dad calling Princeton on his daughter's behalf. P. supposedly won't accept calls from Guidance counselors at all (and I can't imagine a parental call would get through) - an attempt to level the playing field so that kids from public high schools where g.c.s have high numbers of students are treated the same in admissions as students from private schools where counselors will work the phones on a student's behalf.</p>

<p>I wonder, too, about the belief that colleges hold it against a high school if a student is admitted and then doesn't attend. I've heard this before, but if 100% of the admitted students matriculated, it would be a disaster. They NEED some of those students to go elsewhere, so why would an admissions rep hold it against a school? </p>

<p>I think what you're finding is that there are a lot of folktales spinning out there about admissions. I like the advice that you bring the discussion back to yourself - it's about your application, not so much what's happened in the past, and about which college YOU want to 'spend' your SCEA ticket on - presumably the one you most want to attend.</p>

<p>lefthandofdog, I agree that the schools don't expect everyone to matriculate, but they ARE looking to meet a certain percentage, and when the yield rate for a particular high school is consistently below the targeted number, I think that could easily become a red flag against that school. Although yield is no longer a direct factor in the USNews rankings, yield is directly related to selectivity, which is still very much a factor!</p>

<p>My son's school is very concerned about keeping good relationships with adcoms. It is something emphasized throughout the college process. I do not believe it is fair or right that any college penalize a student because of some neglect or wrong doing of the highschool. But there are many factors that are not fair in this process. Some schools are held more in favor by certain colleges because of the track record of success. There are relationships between some adcoms and GCs, not illici, but just better lines of communication and trust.<br>
From what I have read in tell all books by former adcoms, colleges do sometimes accept kids from a particular school in order to encourage more interest from that quarter in future years.<br>
In my opinion, unless there is firm reason for a school being "blackballed" by a particular college (say, the counselor did not enforce EDs the prior year and the college expressed displeasure), or the counselor seems adament that there is an issue, there shouldn't be any reason not to apply to college just because kids have not been accepted in a few years. As Theoneo wrote, there are lean and fat years from certain schools. When you are talking about a college that accepts about 10% of its applicant pool, it is statistically very possible that a highschool may not have acceptances from that college for several years.</p>