small LAC with strong science in New England

Parents Forum
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<p>Ursinus’s strength is in biology.</p>

<p>Honestly, apart from the merit money, the combination of music and physics is strongest at Williams.</p>

<p>Merit money is hard to come by at top schools, particularly in NE.</p>

<p>You might also look at Tufts which isn’t a LAC but does have a LAC feel. Same for Dartmouth.</p>

<p>I think you have to decide which is most important: Location, top school, NE, or merit money. I think it will be difficult to get all these in one school.</p>

<p>Skidmore has a music scholarship – two per year. </p>

<p>Bard has a science scholarship and absolutely incredible music (a new conservatory and a college prez who’s a conductor.)</p>

<p>There are a lot of options.</p>

<p>DD’s best friend just graduated from Bard as a physics major. Her dad is a top physicist (runs the particle accelerator at Brookhaven National Labs) and he was satisfied with the program.</p>

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<p>S-1 at Amherst College had a good friend who double-majored in Physics and Music, then went for a PhD in Physics. At the time (5 years ago) he told me his interest was in (then) a new area of String Theory. I realized, talking there, I didn’t know to which major he was referring, Music or Physics. :stuck_out_tongue: But no merit aid there, only need-based. For middleclass students they give all aid in grants, not loans, to maximize post-college career choice. </p>

<p>Also consider a 5-year double major at Oberlin College and Conservatory, resulting in a B.A. and BMusic
if you are really bright and want to work like a dog while meeting great people. That’s NE (near Cleveland, Ohio) but not New England. If your audition skills aren’t up to the level of the Conservatory, you might find a Major in Music, or Physics Major, within the 4-year B.A. program fits the bill. </p>

<p>Oberlin has long been strong in sciences – with Physics its strongsuit – even before it built its new Natural Science Center complex. A high percentage of Oberlin grads go on to PhD’s, and some of their Goldwater Scholars come out of the Physics department. </p>

<p>Among the LAC’s, though, it’s not always called a “small LAC” as in your title. The combined College and Conservatory has 2600-2800 students. Oberlin DOES have some merit aid.</p>

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<p>Oldfort: Colgate better than Williams? Sez who? The top LACs are usually AWSP: Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore Pomona. Sometimes the combination comes out as WASP, or SWAP.
But whatever one thinks of Colgate, I agree that Williams has an extremely strong math/physics program and also music. I believe it has some deal with Columbia for engineering. We looked at Williams for S but decided he needed to be at a university rather than at a LAC.</p>

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<p>Marite, relax, I went to Colgate. No one is trying to take anything away from Williams.</p>

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<p>And I did not go to ASWP and neither did my kids. But I don’t like partisan bragging.
The OP asked a serious question which merits serious answers.
If the OP’s son is willing to look beyond NE, I would second Carleton. It seems to be sending a good number of graduates to top math/physics graduate programs.</p>

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<p>Whether or not you require merit aid depends on your income and the college. At Princeton and a number of other colleges cover all demonstrated need. In some cases the FA packages are larger than the merit aid offered by others. As I recall the income cutoff for FA at Princeton $180,000.</p>

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<p>marite - I guess you missed the smiley face, sheesh, should get over yourself. Only YOU give serious answers, which is to pull out NSW ranking. I loved my Colgate experience, and I do not need the ranking to tell me that. I went there as a potential physics major and a violin player. I know nothing about Williams.</p>

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<p>That was a silly post, smiley face included. I used the rankings because you made a comparison-- I don’t know what purpose it could possibly serve.<br>
I do know something of Williams, having looked at it for my mathy kid.
Perhaps others appreciate your levity. That’s fine with me. I do try to be helpful.</p>

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<p>I can see that with 12,451 posts.</p>

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<p>Um, oldfort – I think your levity if fine.</p>

<p>Marite: I’m sure people appreciate you and your advice. I always have.</p>

<p>And people are chiming in with Wes.</p>

<p>I think physics and music just happen to be two of Williams’ strongest departments.</p>

<p>Mini is right – it’s weak on languages.</p>

<p>Williams has a professional orchestra (above conservatory level – the faculty play in it) and a student orchestra which is very casual. If a student is right in between, like my son, it can be wee bit problematical, but it showed he should drop his music major because he definitely didn’t want to work for the higher orchestra, preferring to fool around with other kids. Fine with me.</p>

<p>He took an amazing physics class and an astronomy class and then got outclassed (heehee a bit of a pun.) But that’s okay. He learned oodles.</p>

<p>Colgate is beautiful and wonderful, and I’m sure it has its own massive strengths.</p>

<p>Wes is good if someone is interested in World Music and jazz, not as good for classical.</p>

<p>I stick by Bard if merit money is wanted. The merit money is only for those agreeing to major in a science (guess they want to attract more science students and have a new facility) and in the top 10% of the class. There are other stipulations, but at the moment I can’t remember what they were.</p>

<p>And I think for many serious physics or math students a uni would be preferable because the presence of grad students ensures that there are many really upper level courses.</p>

<p>It really depends on an individual students’ needs, but I can totally understand this.</p>

<p>My S really wanted to go on a bit of a spiritual/self-discovery journey and the LAC was great for that. He ended up in Classics, which thank goodness, is also a good department.</p>

<p>Since he takes both Greek and Latin he is busy with that, and I don’t think he needs a uni because he wouldn’t be any more advanced than he is now. He is looking to grad school. Will you all visit him in the poor house? Really, it’s okay with me – he should “follow his bliss” as Joseph Campbell said.</p>

<p>I’m rambling. Sorry all.</p>

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<p>

That was the reason S decided against Williams. However, his grad program includes 3 Carleton graduates, the largest numbers of students from a single undergrad institution. So, unless a student really needs to take grad courses while still in college, many LACs can prepare that student very well.
I agree about Wes. It has added top math faculty. But its claim to musical fame is in ethnomusicology rather than classical music. When S1 visited, having declared an interest in music, he was shown in a room with two music faculty, one of whom was a gamelan specialist.
Bard is tremendous in music (Leon Botstein being its president); I don’t think it is in the same league as some other LACs in math and physics, however. At least, not yet.</p>

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<p>A note about Wes: While I agree that our academic strength is in ethnomusicology and Jazz, and that our classical offerings might not be as good as say, Williams or Oberlin, I think people are over-stressing the difference at Wes little. I have several very talented friends who are music majors with a preference for classical (at least one is hoping to go professional, studied abroad in an intense music program, etc) and they have always had ample opportunities to perform, train, etc. No complaints. </p>

<p>Basically, Wes is still a fine option for someone interested in classical music :D</p>

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<p>Yes, Marite. I’m sure that’s true. But if merit money is needed I guess I thought it might be an acceptable compromise.</p>

<p>The top schools tend offer things that lower ones can’t necessarily duplicate, although sometimes they can. I certainly don’t want to ruffle any feathers. The state flagships can offer a lot, but they’re not NE LAC’s.</p>

<p>Another idea (not a NE LAC, either) is SUNY Stony Brook. An excellent math faculty and an awesome and very highly ranked music program. Proximity to Manhattan makes it attractive to professors of music wanting to maintain a performance career.</p>

<p>And it’s very reasonably priced, even for out of state students.</p>

<p>The two brightest kids in S’s year (not S) elected to go to Stony Brook and continue work in physics begun in HS (Intel or Siemens projects I think.)</p>

<p>Because there is some cooperation between Stony Brook and Brookhaven National Labs (a 40 minute trip and cross-pollination between the institutions, there are excellent opportunities for physicists students.</p>

<p>The math department left en masse at one point and started Renaissance, now the top grossing Hedge fund in the world. But they did hire another distinguished faculty.</p>

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<p>Weskid: I’m sure you’re right, but the classical composition program was weak. S had many meetings there. And he found the practice rooms very discouraging because of moldy carpets.</p>

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<p>I was limiting myself to LACs. Another Midwestern LAC of which I have heard good things re: math/physics is Lawrence University. It is in fact a LAC with about 1400 students and has a conservatory.
Stony Brook has an excellent math & physics program and recently received a very large donation from Simons who founded Renaissance after teaching there for many years. A new building named after him is being completed. Its COA is very reasonable, even for OOS students, but it is not an attractive campus and is rather in the middle of nowhere.</p>

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<p>Gee, I don’t agree with the unattractive or middle of nowhere, but I guess that’s totally subjective.</p>

<p>I think Shirley Kenney, the last prez, has actually made it quite lovely. </p>

<p>And I live here and find plenty to do and don’t feel isolated at all. And the station for the train into the city is right on campus.</p>

<p>It’s not Cambridge, for sure, but there’s more to do locally than in Williamstown. No skiing, true, but beach, cute town (Stony Brook, but upscale), funkier more college friendly town: Port Jefferson.</p>

<p>And Simons built Avalon Park to honor his son who died in a freak accident. It’s got a wonderful maze at the top of trail.</p>

<p>There are two duck ponds very close by.</p>

<p>The ferry from PJ also takes one easily to NE.</p>

<p>But maybe I’m just a non-urban laid back kind of gal.</p>

<p>And this isn’t a LAC either, but it does give merit money – Brandeis.</p>

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<p>mythmom:</p>

<p>Sorry! This comes straight from the report by my very urban son! :slight_smile:
Williamstown would not have been his cup of tea, either. It is even more isolated.</p>

<p>I thought of Brandeis, as well; but I have been wondering whether, in light of its financial difficulties, it will be able to maintain its financial aid program, including merit money. It does have a good math and physics program and good music facilities.</p>

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<p>Gosh, there’s nothing wrong with comparing Colgate with Williams, especially if Williams is already the OP’s first choice. And, since when did Pomona, Amherst and Williams become the end-all-be-all of LACs?. There are plenty of otherwise reasonable people who cross them off their lists for various reasons, every year.</p>

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<p>johnwesley: I agree with you, and oldfort was being cute and celebrating the ole alma mater.</p>

<p>marite: No offense taken at all. First of all, different folks like different things. And I should be used to people calling Stony Brook ugly, though I really don’t think so.
Third, I was born in the middle of Manhattan so living here is definitely a choice. And most important, your intentions were kind.</p>

<p>As you know, I have one kid at Williams who loves the nature scene and “lack of light pollution” (his words) and one who graduated from Barnard and languishes when she’s away from NYC for too long. During her six months in London she referred to the city as “a lovely rural outpost” feeling that it was much less urban than New York.</p>

<p>Both really like it here, so it’s a good compromise for us. I have no problem with your S’s conclusions.</p>

<p>As for me, minus the sad subway beggars (I now it’s the metro – couldn’t resist the illiterate) and ubiquitous dog poop and cigarette smoke, I just adore Paris. Urban but filled with light. And to me, sitting in cafes is the most civilized activity a person can do.</p>

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<p>Oldfort’s post made this Williams alum smile - I’ve been told the same thing by someone very closely related to me.</p>