Small schools with strong physics programs + merit

College Search & Selection
1

<p>My son is a senior finishing up applications. Plans on an ug in physics and grad school in theoretical physics. </p>

<p>We are looking for any recommendations for smaller schools with strong science programs where he might be eligible for merit money. He has received full tuition at our state school and full tuition at a regional U so safeties are covered. He would be fine going to either but would still like options. </p>

<p>Applied to: Grinnell (his top pick), Reed, Wesleyan, Brown U (the open curriculum is a great fit for him). He is considering a couple other schools, Rice for example, but not sure.
We have 25-30K per year for college costs for him. We have a wonky financial situation and I am not sure we can count of need based aid, hence my desire to take one last look for any schools that might offer merit. The problem we have is that schools that are likely to offer merit tend to not have the advanced physics classes he needs. </p>

<p>ACT: 34
APs, 5s in physics, CS, AP Govt, Calc BC
SAT 2 physics 800, math 2 780
4.0 uw gap
school does not rank
NMSF
Taking linear alg, intermediate mechanics and modern physics this year at our local U
White Midwestern Male</p>

<p>He is a quiet, introspective introvert with a love of physics and the world around him. He enjoys discussing all kinds of topics with others.</p>

<p>Any recommendations would be appreciated. </p>

2

<p>Look into Lawrence University in Wisconsin. I’ve heard good things about the physics department there, from physicist friends.</p>

3

<p>Thanks SpiritManager. We had looked at Lawrence and will give it another look with Merit in mind in particular. </p>

4

<p>Oberlin has strong physics and offers merit aid.</p>

5

<p>You might want to look at Case Western. Our ds received a large scholarship offer from them last yr. Your ds is close to where ds was when he graduated. We didn’t end up pursuing Case b/c ds was awarded enough $$ to attend full-ride elsewhere, so we didn’t follow up on how they deal with transfer credits.</p>

<p>I would definitely only look at schools with a physics grad dept. Ds ulitmately decided he wanted to follow an option which allowed him to take grad level courses. A simple phone call to the dept should answer whether or not the dept allows undergrad students to take grad courses.</p>

6

<p>Carleton.
If you’re willing to go bigger, then U Rochester.
I think, though, if you really want them to shower you with merit $, you have to show them that you love them At least visit.</p>

7

<p>I’d look at Chicago.</p>

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<p>I worry that a student taking linear algebra and an intermediate physics course in high school would find most LACs offerings too limited. I’m going to second @Mom2aphysicsgeek‌ suggestion that he look into schools with grad programs. Besides, it’s not as though he’ll be in particularly large classes if he goes the math/ physics route given how advanced he is already. </p>

<p>University of Rochester
Syracuse
Brandeis
Reneslaer Polytechnic Institute (sp?)
Illinois Tech
Tulane
New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology</p>

9

<p>Both Grinnell and Case Western are likely to give admission with good merit scholarships (25-30k).
Carleton doesn’t offer merit scholarships except the National Merit of $2,000 and the Fritch scholarship for students from a city or area of less than 200,000 people.
U of Chicago offers some merit scholarships for students from low-income families or Chicago City and Natioral Merit of $4,000.
If financial aid is not a sure thing for your family, I won’t advise you to consider Carleton and Chicago.
Lawrence offers academic scholarships that range from $15,000-22,000 plus National Merit of $2,000.</p>

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<p>Another vote for Lawrence U. They have excellent undergrad research opportunities and offer excellent financial aid. They just received a $25M endowment for scholarships. Does your son have a good number of volunteer hours? They give smaller add-on scholarships for community service too.</p>

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<p>@whenhen is correct in that the size of the school is probably not going to matter if he attends a school which accepts his credits b/c he will have reached a pt where classes are “in-majors” only with a few cross major students. Most physics depts in this country are pretty small.</p>

<p>Some of the questions ds asked himself were did he want to keep his credits or didhe want to only get to use them for placement purposes. (That is a pretty big issue. Places like Chicago will not let them receive advanced standing, but they can place into higher level classes. But, it means that they still have the same number of credit hours to complete.) Flexibility to double, triple major, spend more time on research, etc those are the trade-offs to going to a lower ranked school that will give credit.</p>

<p>Another was research opportunities. He loves research. If he met with a dept and response was that the profs were too busy to take on undergrad students for research, he eliminated the school from his list.</p>

<p>He asked depts where their undergrads went to grad school. With the exception of one school (which was a horrific dept…definitely make the effort to visit the dept b/c prior to the visit, the school was one ds was interested in), every dept was able to tell us what was going on with most of the dept grads. We learned all kinds of interesting tidbits that way. One piece of trivia that sticks out in my mind was when they talked about a student who didn’t get into his first choice grad program and was told that panel wasn’t convinced that physics was his true calling b/c he had a 4.0 in his math double but had some Bs in his physics. FWIW, most depts had kids had students that had gone to top phD programs regardless of the school’s individual ranking.</p>

<p>The academic match is honestly going to be the hardest part to deal with and a lot of that is going to depend on your student and whether he engages with his professors or is more of the sit in class and leave when it’s over type. This was our ds’s first semester at his choice school. He took 300 level electromagnetics and advanced linear alg. While he will say he is challenged, I have my doubts b/c he made a 100 on his electromagnetics final and had something like a 97 avg in linear. And that was with taking 18 hrs his first semester with all As across the board. As an adult looking both in and out of his life at that school, I know that schools like MIT would have challenged him in his classes in a far different manner. But,the flip side to the scenario is that he captures the attention of his professors and his undergrad experience is looking to be similiar to his DE experience at the different universities where he took classes. He talks to his profs in their offices, they offer him supplemental materials from their personal libraries, they invite him to meet to discuss research, etc. His math professor encouraged him to get involved in math research even though he is currently a physics/EE double and not even majoring in math. (Though I think he is going to add it as a major simply b/c he loves math so much.)</p>

<p>Next semester he is only going to take 16 hrs b/c he wants to get involved in research. He is applying to various REUs for the summer. He is really hoping to get a good REU experience.</p>

<p>I think he said by the end of the fall semester of his “technically” sophomore yr (he is already a jr by credit hours), he will have finished all the undergrad level physics courses and he will be able to start taking grad level courses. He is also in a research honors program which incorporates research into their undergrad experience. He loves research, so he is going to have plenty of it.</p>

<p>Obviously we do not know if attending his full-ride option was a right or wrong choice for him to get accepted into a top phD program. That is still 3 yrs away. But, I know he is happy and loving his experience. I know that the professors at the school are definitely reaching out to him. He is a completely non-competitive type and far more of a collaborator, so maybe this was the best choice for him b/c he definitely shines and spends lots of time helping other students and does not have to be cut-throat to get the opportunities that he really wants.</p>

<p>I am not sure if schools outside of MIT, CalTech, etc would have been really any different. I do think the level of their classes is unique. I suspect that once you move out of that very small realm, most physics depts are fairly similar at the undergrad level.</p>

<p>Don’t know if that is even the slightest bit helpful or not. If your ds wants to pm my ds, he is home for Christmas break and I am sure he would be happy to chat with him via email.</p>

<p>(I don’t have time to proofread that and i typed quickly with my 4 yr old talking in my ear, so sorry if it is incoherent.)</p>

<p>ETA: I did want to add that ds says he is working for his grades. He does honestly believe he is being challenged. I am the only one with doubts. But I homeschooled him and I know what he is capable of achieving, so I am biased b/c I always challenged him to the best of my ability (which he surpasses in 8th grade…so I really may not know what I am talking about.) :)</p>

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<p>Carleton is not going to give merit aid, except $1000 for NMF.</p>

<p>St. Olaf would be a much better shot, and they have a very good Physics and Math Department. Friend our ours S went to Olaf, and is now working at UW-Mad on a Fusion project. He loved Olaf.</p>

<p>Good Luck!</p>

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<p>South Dakota School of Mines & Technology. Lots of Physics-related research going on there. Also, it’s a tremendous bargain.</p>

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<p>Have to agree that the OP should carefully evaluate smaller schools’ physics and math departments to make sure that he won’t run out of offerings at them (look at catalogs, schedules, and faculty rosters). Physics tends to be a smaller department and major, so the upper level offerings may be limited (and physics and math instructional capacity is often heavily “used up” teaching introductory level service courses for other majors).</p>

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<p>If he sticks with physics as a career (which most likely means a research/teaching position in a university, or a research position in a national lab) then he will face intense competition when he graduates for the relatively few positions. From a career perspective he would do well to find the best undergraduate physics program to which he gets admitted. This means a leading national university with a strong graduate (and research program). The “list” of such universities is relatively short.</p>

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<p>Davidson?</p>

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<p>@fogcity While facing competition for employment is a reality, it is going to be related to grad school, research experience, LOR, etc from those yrs and not tied to undergrad. We visited several lower ranked schools that had undergrads go to top schools for grad school. </p>

<p>One issue to consider is that schools with large grad depts are going to have grad students the focus when it comes to research opportunities and undergrads are going to likely end up working for the grad students. Smaller depts do have more opportunity for undergrad research.</p>

<p>When ds talked with the dean at one of the higher ranked schools he was considering, he was told it wasn’t impossible, but it was very difficult for undergrads to become active in research early on.</p>

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<p>I think each school is different, Mom2, because some larger unis (and some small ones, too) are just coming around to the notion of undergrads doing research. You really have to check with the school and the department, and even then you will find that some profs are more amenable to u/g research in their labs than others. </p>

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<p>@jkeil911 I agree. But when the dean of the dept makes a frank comment like that to an inquiry by a student he has already discussed course sequence options due to unusual advanced standing and research background (ds did participate in research at his DE university), it is definitely worth noting, especially if research is something important to the student. (It was a main criteria for ds.) </p>

<p>Just pointing out that the assumption should not be made that meaningful undergrad research going to be accessible everywhere. If it matters to the student, it is another area that needs investigating.</p>

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<p>We’re in agreement, OP, but we also have to realize that these posts are read by people other than the OP and our comments specific to a poster can be taken as generalizations by other readers. Each college, department, and lab is different in how it treats u/g researchers, even at LACs. </p>