<p>We appreciate the input. Thanks Mom2 for detailing your son’s experience. It is interesting to read and gives some good points to ponder.</p>
<p>Small class rooms aren’t his concern. A small, compact campus is his greater priority. He has experienced the large campus here and his preference would be a small campus. Also, he likes the LAC philosophy. He enjoys a variety of subjects such as political science and literature. He would like an ug education that touches on a wide variety of subjects. </p>
<p>Son has looked through course offerings (including reading course descriptions and frequency of offerings). Some of them offer a broad range of physics electives so while he may not get the depth, he could get plenty of breadth. A dbl major w/CS is of interest. He is a student who benefits from taking fewer classes at a time also, so a light course load would be good for him. In this sense, he would be using his advanced classes as a way to help lighten the overall four year course load. Course descriptions at Reed sound as though the material is covered at a greater detail than at our U also.</p>
<p>School such as Grinnell may not have a large course offering, but they have mentored research project which son would love to do (twice or extended time if possible). He participates in research at the U but it seems to be a different experience from what he glimpsed at the LACs we visited.</p>
<p>I do appreciate the input though because I understand one could be quite shocked to find out how few advanced classes are offered.</p>
<p>He is still considering schools like Rice, Uchicago and WUSTL. Oh, and he is applying to Harvey Mudd, which sounds like an idea place for him, but chances are slim. </p>
<p>I am off to look up some of the schools mentioned which are not familiar to me. Thanks for the suggestions all.</p>
<p>“Also, he likes the LAC philosophy. He enjoys a variety of subjects such as political science and literature. He would like an ug education that touches on a wide variety of subjects.”</p>
<p>FWIW, Son may prefer “LAC philosophy”, but LACs have no monoploy on offering that, from the referenced curricular perspective. At most universities I’m familiar with, physics is a major in that university’s College of arts & sciences (or similar name for its liberal arts college), where the curriculum is virtually identical to that of most LACs. Including distribution requirements and elective courses touching the various corners of the arts, sciences and humanities. The various university liberal arts colleges may have some differing requirements from the “standard” set of requirements and offerings , but LACs also differ.</p>
<p>“He would like an ug education that touches on a wide variety of subjects.”
FWIW, the widest variety of subjects available to study will most likely be found at a university, not an LAC.</p>
<p>Wheaton (MA) also offers merit and has produced some award winning physics scholars and you can cross enroll at Brown for courses not offered at Wheaton</p>
<p>Clark University is LAC sized, but has a small Physics Phd program and up to full ride merit, but I think you missed the deadline for the biggest award</p>
<p>U Rochester has a strong physics program and up to full tuition merit - not sure of deadlines. </p>
<p>BC has a good physics program and very limited full tuition merit (presidential scholars) - not sure of deadline</p>
<p>Olin is tiny (about the size of H Mudd’s engineering enrollment) and offers merit</p>
<p>FWIW, some LACs have as many physics majors as some large Us have. And others have almost as many. That’s another factor that screws up those “%phds” lists.</p>
<p>Here is a (non-comprehensive) three year average of the # physics major bachelor’s degrees granted at these schools, from about 10 years ago. Maybe you can combine that with a list of merit aid schools.
Also note some of the state schools may be relatively affordable for out of state students, I’ve heard that’s the case for the SUNY schools, at least. </p>
<p>US Air Force Academy (CO) 24 Bowdoin College (ME) 12
Harvey Mudd College (CA) 22 Bethel College (MN) 11
U of Wisconsin-La Crosse 22 Oberlin College (OH) 11
Illinois St U 20 The Coll of New Jersey 11
Carleton College (MN) 19 Whitman College (WA) 11
Reed College (OR) 19 U of Puget Sound (WA) 11
Colorado College 18 Allegheny College (PA) 10
CA Poly St U-San Luis Obispo 17 Colby College (ME) 10
College of Charleston (SC) 17 Dickinson College (PA) 10
SUNY College-Geneseo (NY) 17 Kalamazoo College (MI) 10
Gustavus Adolphus College (MN) 14 Salisbury U (MD) 10
Williams College (MA) 14 Sonoma State U (CA) 10
Xavier U (LA) 14 Southern Oregon U 10
Bates College (ME) 13 U of Montana 10
Grinnell College (IA) 13 U of Northern CO 10
Middlebury College (VT) 13 SUNY Coll at Fredonia (NY) 10
Saint Olaf College (MN) 13 Vassar College (NY) 10
U.S. Military Academy (NY) 13
Note: List includes only those departments who contributed degree data for all 3 years</p>
<p>Miami U (OH) 13 CA State U-Fullerton 8
Appalachian State U (NC) 11 SUNY-Binghamton U (NY) 8
CA State U-Northridge 11 U of CO, Colorado Springs 8
Northern Arizona U 11 Virginia Commonwealth U 8
Cleveland State U (OH) 10 Creighton U (NE) 7
Texas State U-San Marcos 10 San Diego State U (CA) 7
San Jose State U (CA) 9 San Francisco State U (CA) 7
Southwest Missouri St U 9 U of Memphis (TN) 7</p>
<p>By way of comparison:
U of Chicago (IL) 28 Stanford U (CA) 20</p>
– this comment above referred to undergraduate physics majors at research universities because the graduate students are the ones who do the research</p>
<p>Frankly the reality is that for high level physics the courses are intense and very time consuming. There is very little time (at least during the academic year) for the very top physics students, those who take the more advanced courses, to spend a meaningful amount of time doing “research”. And if they do find the time the aspect of research that they can meaningfully do is that of a technician. No doubt being around modern research, in whatever capacity, is helpful. But its the preparation for doing research – and that means advanced math and physics courses – that matters most. And then there’s always the “summer” for undergraduates to participate in modern research projects.</p>
<p>While there is research at LACs a quick study of physics journals will show that top research is done at a few handfuls of the top universities. Those universities’s graduate programs are very selective. Student’s undergraduate program figures in a major way as to who get accepted for graduate physics study at such universities. And, of course, for the brightest students, it may not matter. They will find a way to excel whether they are at a small undergraduate physics department or at one in a major research university.</p>
<p>Actually, bigger schools tend to have a larger selection of subjects and courses, sometimes including subjects which are relatively obscure for which there is too little demand for a smaller non-specialty school to offer.</p>
<p>General education requirements can vary from none (Brown, Amherst) to extensive (MIT, Harvey Mudd) at both universities and LACs.</p>
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<p>CS is often limited at smaller schools; check course offerings and faculty rosters. CS PhDs tend to have ample industry employment opportunities, so smaller out-of-the-way schools may have difficulty attracting them.</p>
<p>@fogcity Now that the OP has given more details about her ds, much of what I shared is not relevant b/c it sounds like the OP’s ds is planning on spreading out his coursework over a longer period of time by taking fewer classes.</p>
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<p>I don’t know how many freshman schedule 400 level physics classes for their 2nd semester, but let’s pretend they meet the definition of “very top physics students.:” It does not sound like the OP’s ds is that far behind my ds’s sequence, so my posts were directed toward that scenario. I was simply sharing my ds’s experience. </p>
<p>Opportunities for real undergrad research do exist. Combine campus undergrad research with REU’s and you have a great undergrad research experience.</p>
<p>Here is an example of a physics student in the research honors program ds opted for. This is a clip from the press release for this student being named a Goldwater Scholar.</p>
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<p>That student went to Stanford for grad school from lowly UA.</p>
<p>@MidwestSalmon One thing that just crossed my mind–when you say your ds likes to take only a few courses at a time, would he be OK with the pace of trimester classes vs. traditional semester length classes? If the faster pace might not make for a good fit, it is something worth paying attention to.</p>
<p>As a lot of people have mentioned in this forum, the physics curriculum is pretty standard across the country and so no matter what university your son attends, he will be able to get into a good graduate program if he does the “right” things as an undergraduate. These include getting significant research experience either through REUs or at his university during the year (or both). It also means taking the most demanding physics curriculum possible. Both these things can be done in small LAC programs as you can see from the list above in post #23.</p>
<p>Let me give you my perspective as a physics professor at a smallish research university where I advise undergraduates and head the graduate program. We have had our undergraduates get into top 20 physics programs regularly and do very well because they have a strong preparation. For us this means a full year of classical mechanics, full year of quantum mechanics after a semester of modern physics, a full year of electrodynamics at the senior level, a full year of computational physics. Our best students take quantum mechanics as juniors and often take some graduate courses in their final year. This means they go into a graduate program having already had experience with the level of coursework they are expected to take once there. These same students generally get involved in research groups as sophomores and have contact with our graduate students. </p>
<p>This would argue for attending a research university with a graduate program but that is not absolutely necessary as many of the universities listed above have the comprehensive coursework I have listed (apart from the graduate courses perhaps) and most universities understand that undergraduate research is important. i do find that students with a single semester of quantum mechanics when they enter our graduate program are at a bit of a disadvantage over those who have the full year.</p>
<p>The best advice given above is to visit the departments your son is interested in and make sure that it fits his needs academically and as far as support goes. After that it is up to him to take advantage of the opportunities available.</p>
<p>@xraymancs Thank you for sharing that info. Ds noticed the variances in course sequences with some single and some full yr. Where he DE in high school, he took 2 semesters of physical mechanics, whereas where he is attending undergrad they offer 1 class called intermediate mechanics. He took the EE version of electromagnetics bc it went into more depth on some topics than the physics equivalent though both courses use the same textbook. He is taking the 2nd semester class of that in the EE dept as well. The professor for that class has become a great mentor for our ds. </p>
<p>Your post was rather reassuring that he is on the right track and receiving good advising. </p>
<p>I believe OP said this was already being checked, but having had my D1 encounter upperclass course limitations at her (large) LAC, I tend to raise the flag on this when I think it may be relevant.</p>
<p>Yes the typical courses needed to complete the major must obviously be offered. but that does not mean the upper level courses are not offered only every other year, in a single section. Which may well conflict with something else an individual of broad interests may want to take elsewhere at the school (also offered in a single section). And if that one prof who typically teaches that particular advanced course S wants deperately to take happens to be on sabbatical that one semester when S can take it- or the one visiting prof. who was teaching it leaves- ,the school may not offer it at all that go-round. This is drawn by direct analogy to D1s actual experience.</p>
<p>If S gets interested in advanced subfield X, better hope one of the few faculty there is also interested in it.
The few advanced courses, to the extent there are some, may track faculty interest /expertise areas which may or may not track S’s.</p>
<p>This is generic LAC VS, university stuff, but based on my D1’s experience I think it is most likely to become germane when a kid comes in already very advanced. Also given #23, one can consider the issue as partly (but only partly) related to small # majors vs. larger # majors; a school may be more likely to offer courses more often, in more sections, if there are more students to take them. Perhaps.</p>
<p>Just some things to look out for, as you screen schools.</p>
<p>If I did my math right, looks like an out-of-stater would pay just under $29,000 per year, total, to attend SUNY Geneseo.(except for travel expenses of course)</p>
<p>@monydad you are absolutely right. The smaller programs sometimes offer those upper division courses every 2 years to make sure there are enough students to fill the class. Electives may even less often. These limitations just aren’t present in large programs and that is a consideration.</p>
It does not sound like the OP’s ds is that far behind my ds’s sequence, so my posts were directed toward that scenario. I was simply sharing my ds’s experience. </p>