Small vent about grade grubbing

Parents Forum
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<p>WashDad, I think 2000 kids in grades 10-12 (grade 9 is in Jr High) crammed into the space designed for may be 1500 students is HUGE. May be not by CA standards.</p>

<p>OK, back to PE. I'm a big proponent of mandatory PE, but I'm not sure if PE needs to be graded. Pass/fail grading system system with emphasis on participation and effort should do. Everyone needs exercise, but not everyone is destined for the Olympics. When I was in middle school, we had a real "PE Nazi" teacher. She was rough and had ridiculous grading standards. For instance, 40 "properly performed" push-ups non-stop would get a female student an A in that particular "assignment". There was no A for effort. I know that D's Jr. High PE teacher was no better and had a nasty grading system. My very athletic kid hated her PE classes!</p>

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<p>We grade PE in our school district. VA requires that all students have two years to graduate. Our teachers agree that if you dress out, you cannot get less than a B. We also offer some personal fitness classes, and believe it or not, some kids fail. Why? They don't dress out!</p>

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<p>I've never heard of these PE 'waivers.' They do seem a bit odd... sounds like something that should go to the school board. Why should someone essentially be allowed to buy their way out of a requirement? I mean so far as I know they wouldn't let you out of your history class requirement just because your parents spent the whole summer taking you on a personalized history tour around the world!</p>

<p>Anyway, around here PE isn't really graded (it's simply pass fail, but you need to take it for 3 out of your 4 years of HS and pass all three years) and is not factored in with the GPA. Basically, if you show up and participate then you pass.</p>

<p>It since changed around a bit, but a while back a controversy around here was that music courses were offered at the same time as some AP and honors classes (for which students got bonus points on their GPA). So in short, if you played an insturment or sang in the choir then you were essentially punished by not being able to take an extra AP or honors course... meaning that if you played an insturment or sang in the choir it was mathematically impossible for you to be in the top ~5 of so of your class (because some folks quit music upon entering high school). We made the decision that a music education was far more important than being 1 or 2 in the class and we never regretted the decision.</p>

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<p>Boy, this thread has been an eye-opener. I've been thinking and thinking and thinking about it since I posted last night, and I believe I've had an epiphany.</p>

<p>NO WONDER Son's not in the top 10%. No wonder he's 45/318. I have a pretty good idea who students #1 - #32 are and they're probably not taking 5 music credits, 5 French credits, Teen Leadership, Financial Literacy, Issues of Society, etc., etc. </p>

<p>They're taking 28 honors and AP classes while Son only takes 22. Duh. Light bulb. </p>

<p>Learn something new everyday on CC. Thanks.</p>

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<p>DB, it's a bummer, huh? The next stage is to decide whether you want to play that game. It's so tempting. You feel like a chump for not working the system. For instance, ds could get his health credit online through a university. He'd receive credit but wouldn't get the 4.0 ding on his transcript. Not sure how that one will play out.</p>

<p>Like I wrote before, I'm just letting him take what he wants to take and to h.ell with the hit on the GPA. I'm hoping this philosophy will result in an engaged, happy child rather than an ulcer-ridden casualty of the academic arms race. He and I had this discussion after he reported a girl in his freshman English class cried because she was getting a B in the second semester. Too much pressure, parental and then self-imposed, on some of these kids.</p>

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<p>It's partly a bummer, but mostly a relief. Now that I realize it's not his GRADES keeping him out of top ten %, it's his CLASSES, I can cut him a break. </p>

<p>I agree. No academic arms race or study ulcers for us. His 4.0/3.75 is just fine, thank you very much. Goodbye Ivies, hello everything else.</p>

<p>:)</p>

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<h1>25:
[quote]
The next stage is to decide whether you want to play that game.

[/quote]
</h1>

<p>It's hard for the kids not to play the game especially for kids in a public high school when the game is created by school admins and colleges. Many high achievers in my kid's school don't take 3 years of French or Spanish in school. They take them outside of school then take the SAT-II or AP language to satisfy language requirement and to bump class rank. The game is getting more competitive every year. The only way to stop this unhealthy competition is to have some set of uniform rules regarding GPA or to drop class rank. In California, if students rank top 4% in class they will have a guaranteed spot in the UC system. I prefer colleges not taking GPA as a hard admission creteria (only the minimum GPA should be required).</p>

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<p>At my school this never seemed to be a real issue. My school weights honors and AP classes more than regular classes. Everyone took PE as a non honors year long class. The classes that could affect your GPA were whether you took honors computer science for a tech elective or AP art history for the art elective. Most of the people who were at the top of the class and got into top 15 colleges, though, didn't necessarily take honors computer science (though the science/engineering oriented ones did) and almsot none took AP art history.</p>

<p>At a school 15 minutes away from mine I've heard of kids not taking a lunch period so they can have 7 academic classes (all honors or AP) and pursue an 8th class to continue taking music or sometimes take 8 academic classes. This is not like schools where they offer 0 period for AP calc or AP english (where it otherwise wouldn't be offered). This school offers a ton of AP classes and students have the opportunity to take a lot of APs in high school. At my school students who want to continue art or music only have 6 academic periods and do just fine. I can't imagine skipping lunch and having no free time during the day. Those kids must be insane.</p>

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<p>In the end, it probably won't make a difference. Most top colleges/universities do not just take the computed GPA from the high school but, rather, recalculate it with their own methodology in an attempt to level the playing field. While I certainly have not done a study on it, the few schools of which I am familiar would not include PE in the recalculated GPA.</p>

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<p>I had a PE waiver for grades 7-12, but I was also playing a non-school sport for 20+ hours a week, traveling 1-2hrs each way for practice, missing a few weeks of school each year for competitions, and getting up at 3:30am for weekend practices. I can pretty well assure you that all of that negatively affected my GPA more than the waiver boosted it (but also that my athletic accomplishments meant more to my applications than +/- a few hundredths of a point in either direction would have). I used the waiver for an extra free period and the opportunity to end my day early (and go to practice) rather than to add another weighted course. With all due respect (and, I imagine, with some exceptions), there's more behind a lot of waivers than pricey rowing lessons and a crazed desire to improve class rank. Swap shoes, walk a mile, then judge...</p>

<p>I can't imagine that so many kids are getting waivers that your son's class rank will be seriously affected, but IMO, rank is the only thing worth being at all worried/irritated about, and only insofar as it's used for scholarships or automatic acceptance. GPA is close to a non-issue...colleges will recalculate it (not always factoring in PE) and/or will see through the mandatory unweighted courses. </p>

<p>My HS had two valedictorians, neither one of whom was #1 in the class. One of them seriously 'watered down' her GPA by taking 4-5 foreign languages, none of which offered honors/AP until at least the third year (and some of which didn't offer it at all). Princeton didn't seem to mind.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Did really well, but one thing that brings his GPA down is that he takes unweighted classes required for graduation at school, such as PE, rather than getting a PE waiver to avoid the 4.0 ding on the GPA.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Finally, if I may, a slightly altered perspective: unweighted classes are not bringing your son's GPA down. The privilege of being qualified and able to take weighed advanced courses is bringing it up. A 4.0 is not a ding; a 4.5-5.0 is a boost. If the school's ranking system doesn't reflect that, well, that's unfortunate, but it doesn't change the fact. He's obviously on an excellent track if a 4.0 looks like a "ding" :)</p>

<p>Best of luck to your son...I've no doubt he'll come through just fine, and happier for it!</p>

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<p>Well, I guess after reading this I appreciate how our school system factors in
AP classes. If you have straight A's in non- AP classes you have a 4.0. For each AP class that you take with an A, it is an additional .1. So, if you have straight A's with 3 AP classes, you have a 4.3. (If you get a B in the AP class, you still have the 4.0) This puts everyone on the same playing field, so to speak. No penalty for taking more electives. This was good for my s, since he hated study halls and always filled his schedule with classes that he found interesting.</p>

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<p>These posts about music programs are disheartening. At my school, band, orchestra, and chorus are all honors classes and so about 60% or more of the school is in one of these three programs. My A in Band BOOSTS my GPA, not lowers it.</p>

<p>Haha, I love our gym program. I managed to take swimming every year (which I'm much better at than running), and get a cumulative A+ in gym! Some grade grubbing goes on because the gym teachers all grade differently, but I love the swim instructor. He's very fair and he truly grades on effort, not achievement.</p>

<p>However, I did go to a private school with athletic waivers for freshman and sophomore year, and I can attest to the OP's problem. They're not neccessarily the grade-grubbers, but there were a lot of "fake" sports in there, especially where kids practiced once a week, but convinced coaches to sign more. Just one of the much fun we had with administration there....</p>

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<p>our students in orchestra..who also must go to school an hour before it starts to fit it in to a block that doesn't interfere with AP classes etc...are also "punished" for being in an arts class...which is unweighted.<br>
the good news is that our son was admitted to 2 out of 3 reach schools despite being ranked significantly below students who gamed the system. Many of his essays tied into his passion for classical music...this taught us a lesson about Rank vs. Passion.</p>

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<p>student615, congrats on your sports achievements! PE waivers were made for people like you, who spend a lot of hours toward this major EC. The people I'm talking about -- trust me -- are not serious athletes.</p>

<p>As I said up front, it's only a small vent. We all make our choices, and we all have to live with them. On balance, we're happy with ours. :)</p>

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<p>My daughter is in drill team (double blocked) and choir. As a freshman, she had a nice class rank. I've told her that she'll keep her nice rank through sophomore year, but that junior year, when her peers take three more AP classes than she does, her rank will plummet. She's willing to live with that and so am I-when else in life does one get to sing and dance every day?</p>

<p>As for a gym waiver, our district is pretty strict-you have to be training at least 15 hours a week in an Olympic sport....believe me, it's a lot easier to get good grades with an unweighted gym grade than it is to get good grades while training for 3 hours after school every day.</p>