Smaller school with merit aid for Jewish girl B+/A- premed [really 3.95 unweighted HS GPA]

College Search & Selection
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W&L is a meets need school.

However, they have the Johnson which is a full ride and goes to 43/44 kids a year - I think they’re using for diversity.

But they also have the Weinstein Scholarship for a Jewish student - tuition only. My daughter was an alternate…really liked the Jewish life she experienced through the process. And what an awesome campus in a cute little town. We didn’t go because it was $81K a year but my daughter said she’d have attended had she won.

Get on their info list - and they’ll send you an app waiver - well they did us. You definitely need to demonstrate interest - and they over do it but it’s worth a shot.

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My daughter did the Early Aid Estimator for College of Wooster and they said she’d likely get around $37K/year lowering the net cost to around $31K/year. My son was offered around the same last year (does not attend) and had a 1430 ACT and 7 or 8 APs with only one B freshman year. My daughter’s scores are a bit lower, 4.0 UW w/5 APs but that merit aid estimate did not include test scores.

My sister-in-law went to College of Wooster, she is a very accomplished MD/PhD OB/GYN and highly recommends the school. We have two other friends who went there and also recommend.

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Thank you tsban44. We will definitely look into that. W&L was on my initial list (not on the CC), but I was thinking that DD has very little chance for Johnson. I will look in Weinstein. It is long short with only 1 scholarship, but she should try.

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I agree with others that St. Mary’s might be a good option.

Have you considered Brandeis? It’s got a large Jewish population with solid programs in the sciences, opportunities for lab research, and it offers merit. Plus the Boston area has no shortage of medical facilities.

You might want to check out some of the Colleges that Change Lives schools (CTCL). Many of them offer merit aid and she would be in the top 25%ile of applicants (necessary if merit aid is sought –– top 10% would be better still).

If she’s open to Women’s colleges (you mentioned Bryn Mawr so I presume she is), some of them are generous with merit (e.g., Bryn Mawr, Mt. Holyoke, Scripps). Here’s a CC thread on that topic:

Also, given that her HS GPA is good and she’s taken a challenging curriculum and has strong EC, taken dual enrollment, etc., you might want to think about NOT submitting any standardized test scores if they are under 1,500. A 1,400 SAT score might do her more harm than good in terms of admissions and especially in terms of obtaining merit. Many –– if not most –– schools (including the most competitive) will be test-optional or test-blind this year because of COVID (and many have decided to go that route permanently). You might want to take advantage of that and have her apply with her strong HS record, good essays, and solid teacher and counselor recs.

(I think you threw a few people off in the beginning when you mentioned a 3.5 projected college GPA in science classes and a need for hand-holding, it sounded like you were talking about her HS record). Good that you clarified.

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OP- you’re an engineer- so look at the facts.

Fact- nobody in HS “knows” they want to become a pediatrician because FIRST you get a Bachelor’s, THEN you go to med school, THEN you specialize. It’s like your graceful 8 year old deciding she’s going to dance with the Bolshoi. Cart before the horse.

Fact- nobody can predict their college GPA. Your D has done well in HS- fantastic. Do you know how many Vals, Sals, 1580 SAT scoring kids flounder in college? Lots and lots and lots. This board is filled with kids trying to tell their parents that they are on academic probation after a stellar HS career, and filled with parents trying to figure out how to “save” their kids transcript. It’s not as simple as “of course she’d get a 4.0 GPA at XYZ college because the other kids are so dumb”.

And you’d be surprised about “cut-throat”. I’ve heard about how “cut-throat” JHU is- and yet the kids we know who are there, and recent graduates, are so thrilled with how supporting students are of each other, how accessible faculty are, how fantastic the grad program advising is. Ditto MIT- where my son attended- allegedly “cut-throat” and impossible to get a high enough GPA for med school. And yet- so many kids from his class ending up in med school, even a few with sub-par GPA’s.

If your D prefers a vibe like St. Mary’s- fantastic!!! But twisting her arm to end up in a place where she feels there isn’t enough to do on weekends, or is 'out in the middle of nowhere" might not be the recipe for academic success you are banking on!

I love St.Mary’s- just a lovely place. but my kids were urban creatures…

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OP I have a few concerns here…

You mention “hand holding,” although I do not agree with your definition (small classes and the ability to speak with professors is NOT hand holding). There really is no “hand holding” when it comes to premed classes and medical school. My daughter’s friend graduated from an Ivy League school and is now in medical school- he speaks all the time of the day to day stress (of course everybody has a different perception when it comes to stress). There is a reason why some choose alternate health care fields (there is stress in these too btw).

You seem nervous that your daughter will not achieve a high gpa at UMD. You indicated ? that your D would be ok attending UMD and seem to imply that you feel it’s too big. Why do you feel that way? And why do you feel that she will have a higher gpa at a “lower” school, where there will also be plenty of very smart students? If UMD is ok with your daughter, why is that a problem for you?

Based on your posts, it seems to me that your daughter wants to be a pediatrician (at least right now) but you are not confident that she has what it takes to get there. Premed is 4 years, and med school is 4+ years. That’s a lot of years for you to be concerned about not having what it takes, not getting high enough scores to move on, etc.

My advice is to sit down with your daughter and let her choose a school (based on what is affordable). If she chooses UMD because she likes it better than some of the others….it’s fine, even if it’s not your choice for her. She will either achieve what it takes to apply to medical school, or she won’t. You need to switch your mindset from “my list” to “her list.”

Right now your daughter wants to be a pediatrician, and you are trying very hard (it appears) to pave the way to create the “easiest” path possible to get there. Why are you doing this? There is no easy path, and it needs to be driven by her. Besides a high gpa and mcat scores, there is also patient volunteering, serving in underrepresented communities, shadowing, etc. It’s a lot, and many take time off after graduation before actually applying. It’s a very long haul, but one that really needs to be driven by her.

A hospital on campus is not necessary. My D attended a school with a hospital on campus. She joined a club that allowed her to volunteer, but she completed her shadowing hours at home during breaks.

My advice to you is to sit down with your daughter and tell her what you can spend. Then let her choose the school, choose her path, and decide for herself whether she has what it takes (both academically and emotionally) to apply to medical school. Maybe she will, and maybe she won’t. And if she doesn’t, there are plenty of fields that will allow her to work with kids.

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Agree 100% with what @blossom said above.

No one knows they want be a pediatrician before doing their peds rotation during med school. They might think they want to be but until they actually spend a month or so actually working with pediatric patients (and their parents) on the level of a physician, they have no idea if they’re actually cut out to be a pediatrician.

Med schools view students who apply to med school intent on particular specialty extremely skeptically (and often quite negatively) because they know the individual likely will change their mind once they get actually hands on experience during their rotations (The average med student changes their intended specialty 3 time during med school…)

My younger daughter knew she was going to be neurologist–loved brains, majored in neuroscience, did brain research in undergrad, worked as full time as a manager for a neuropsychiatric research group at a med school after college, told everyone she was going to be neurologist… But when she got to med school, she fell in love with the OR. She’s now a senior resident in a surgical field.

As Blossom said, you can’t predict your D’s college GPA ahead of time. Plus GPA is just ONE of a dozen or more factors that med school adcomms look at. A great GPA alone won’t get anyone into med school. Your D needs to have the rest of the package (great MCAT scores, great LORs, strong ECs–including extensive clinical experience, community service with the disadvantaged, leadership roles, hands on lab research expereince-- excellent oral and written communication skills, a thoughtful explanation for “why medicine?”, etc) And even if she has the rest of the package–that’s still won’t guarantee her a spot in med school. Every year 60% of med school applicants get rejected at every medical school they apply to. Every pre-med needs to have a Plan B career option. Make sure whatever college your daughter attends allows her to explore and prepare for some other career beside medicine.

Successful med school applicants come from all sorts of colleges, but please make sure you aren’t shortchanging your daughter. Don’t choose a school just because you think she may be able to get a higher GPA there than at some other school. It doesn’t work that way. Med school pre-reqs are challenging classes everywhere. (And if they’re not, then those classes aren’t offering adequate prep for the MCAT.) Pre-reqs classes tend to be populated with the strongest students at the college so there will be competition for those coveted As no matter what college your daughter attends.

The advice I offer to premeds (and their parents) is to choose a undergrad that offer the best combination of
● fit–because happier students do better academically. Also undergrad is 4 years of one’s life one will never get back–one might as well enjoy it.
● opportunity–opportunity including the opportunity to explore other careers
●cost–because med school is horrendously expensive (it’s fast approaching $100K/year) and there is little or no grant aid to pay for med school

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I’m going to disagree with many on here, but my experience for a student who has a high GPA, but “just” a 1400 SAT is to look carefully at the school chosen. This means the student did everything asked of her at the high school and is shining there, but the bar was likely set low (like the school I worked at).

When students get into classes - esp pre-med classes where “all” the best students are, they could easily feel outclassed and get demoralized thinking they are dumb. They aren’t dumb. They just didn’t get the foundation other students from better schools had.

I’ve seen multiple kids leave high school wanting med school. Some, indeed, change their minds for very legit reasons like finding something else they like better. But others get discouraged in the weed out classes because they think they aren’t as smart as their peers when they’re bewildered and “everyone else” knows so much already!

I know those kids - generally had them in math/science classes. They could have done well. When similar kids go to schools where they are in the Top 10-25% of students, they do well and almost always get into med school when they continue to pursue it (could be DO school - that’s popular around here). I’ve seen kids with 1250 SATs get into med school if they went to an appropriate level college.

What happens in college is the college teaches for the level most students are at. Those intro classes can fill in what students from “average” schools (like mine) missed. Higher level colleges often start assuming kids already had that info. I’ve seen tests from different schools. Bio 101 is not the same everywhere, nor is Calc 101.

Successful doctors come from all sorts of undergrads. Getting into med school is the key. Getting into a freshman class or two and feeling very behind the curve can kill a dream.

If the OP’s daughter “knows” she wants medicine, go for it. My doctor son “knew” he wanted to be a doctor when he was 8. Some kids just know. There’s nothing wrong with that TBH. Give them the opportunity to get there rather than giving them more obstacles to overcome.

To the OP. Pick a school where that 1400 (or whatever her score ends up being) is in the Top 10-25% of incoming students for her best shot at it. The good thing is those are also schools where she’s likely to get merit aid.

Do make sure she likes the school. I agree with all of @WayOutWestMom 's bullet points. I just add that one more based upon experience of seeing several good students attempt the path from average schools. Many posters on CC have students who attended good schools. I did too back in my day. But average schools can have different bars for earning that 3.95 GPA.

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OP, you mention that your daughter is expecting around a 1400 SAT.

Wanting to ask what that is based on. Has she taken any SATs yet? Or has she taken timed practice tests? Or is that based on untimed practice tests? Or is she a junior this year and your family is thinking ahead for next year?

Asking because of Creekland’s comments above re: a potential connection/disconnect between test scores and gpa helping families to find the best fit for their kids.

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Very true point. SAT of 1500+ and any school is just fine. The foundation is there - they just need to do the work all pre-meds need to do, not do all that and fill in foundational gaps too. Some at that level will feel bored at lower level schools where they are in the Top 1-5% of students IME.

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It was written that this student’s sibling received merit money from Case and UMD, acceptances to top schools, and currently attends a top public OOS school for engineering. This older sibling sounds like a very strong student (not downplaying the younger student who is clearly a very good student). Did the siblings attend the same HS?

The OP also said that this younger student is “not top schools material,” which leads me to believe that there are some very strong students at this HS (again, not downplaying this student- just trying to get a sense of what the HS is like because it was discussed above).

Maybe it’s me, but I don’t really see a mismatch. This is a student with an unweighted 3.9 (A’s and B’s) with a good score on a practice SAT (93rd percentile).

She’s not at the very top, but she’s clearly a very good student.

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Kids attended different HSs. Older DD has technical engineering mind. Younger one is different type but is a good student from good HS… When I mean younger daughter is not top school material, I mean there is not point for her to apply to Ivy, UMich etc. Her major assets are not technical but social skills.

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DD is a junior. I am not sure how much time/efforts we should invest in SAT at this point. It is possible that test optional route can be easier but most likely will not provide any scholarships.
To put it in perspective: DD is not math nor humanity kid. She is just above national average in both. She is capable to do very well on SAT but will need to do a lot of review and studying to achieve high scores. There are way too many holes in her basic knowledge from subpar public education (our schools had terrible experimental curriculum that my other kids avoided and she did not…) But she is very capable…

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That all makes sense, but in order for you to plan (and for the CC commnuity to be able to give good advice) I am asking for clarification about the 1400 SAT that you are expecting.

It sounds like it is not based on any actual, timed tests (real or practice) but instead is based on what you are expecting based on your knowledge of her abilities and your experience with your other children. Is that correct, or did I misunderstand?

And as a junior, I think that at this point it is not really known how many schools will continue to be TO next year, so that is something to consider. She still has plenty of time to at least take a timed, practice SAT (and ACT, because some kids do better on the ACT) at home to see if your assesement is accurate. If necessary, she can take each section at separate times, as long as each section is timed and she stops working on it once the time is up. It won’t be as accurate for predictive value as a full-on timed practice test (again, at home), but it will be more helpful than not doing it at all.

Make sure to only use actual, released practice tests for this. They are available online. Don’t use third-party ones provided by test-prep companies – they won’t be as accurate for the assessment you are looking for. But if you are basing your plans on a predicted SAT score, but she hasn’t actually taken any SATs (even at home), then I think you need to take a step back and get the best data you can before making actual plans.

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Creekland, you are correct. You are describing my DD, except the bar in school is not low. She just needs to be at the top 10% and become confident in herself and not feel stupid around all “supersmart” or over tutored kids. She is very capable but it is very difficult to be confident in cut-through environment. I want her to have her real choice to go or not to go for medicine.

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She did PSAT cold turkey and new that she missed quite a lot. She is taking AP Calc AB now without any problems.

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That’s great that she is doing well in calculus. However, as you likely know, the sat doesn’t test calculus and it really does require good mastery of the topics it does test because of the limited time available for each question.

But it looks like UMD will be test optional for this years juniors, so if that is her safety it looks like you don’t have to worry.

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Wanted to re-up the Ohio Wesleyan recommendation another poster suggested upthread.

When D20 was visiting schools, our personal tour guide at OWU was a senior who had been accepted to Med school and had nothing but positives to describe her classes and the research opportunities she received at the Ohio Wesleyan. A lot of personal connections, and professors who helped her the entire way through undergrad to be competitive for med school admission.

OWU has an honors program I am 99% sure your daughter would be invited to, as well as being highly competitive for their full tuition scholarships (and she would get at least $30K as I remember their aid policy correctly).

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Chmcnm, just curious what schools on the list surprised you and why?
Thanks.

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I agree with Blossom, Creekland and lots of great posts here.
Can you clarify what you mean by “just above national average in math and humanities”? Is this based on standardized testing? Btw I am a pediatrician (who knew I wanted to be from a young age, did write all my essays on it, and yet did get in to multiple top med programs —as did my peers who mostly wrote idealistic but authentic essays) and I know the field of peds/medicine and med admissions very well. MDs in general are top-10% standardized test takers at minimum. Many of us are top 1%. Premed classes anywhere that is good enough to provide excellent prep for the MCAT will be chock full of at least top 10% kids all battling it out in the hard courses. You seem to be very aware of your D’s abilities and that is great: but if she is really just above average by standard National comparison, and needs hand-holding, I think it is unlikely that she will make it to an MD. There are so many other ways to be involved in pediatrics—help her expand her outlook.

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