I have been accepted by these two amazing schools, and I am having trouble choosing which one to attend. Both schools have pros and cons for me.
Some background info:
I am from California and attended a large public high school that is fairly competitive. Right now, I’m planning to be on the premed track and major in either molecular biology or biochemistry with a possible minor in history. I want to go to a school that offers great premed resources and support as well as the freedom for me to explore in other subject areas.
Smith:
This school has been one of my personal favorites. Since I have a wide range of academic interests, I really like liberal arts colleges and especially women’s colleges. I got into Smith with an early write as well as their STRIDE program. Its open curriculum is def a huge pro. I also really love the collaborative environment and supportive housing communities there.
Some Cons for Smith:
It is relatively far from home, and the weather is not as nice. The tuition might be a bit of a trouble. Although I applied for financial aid, the net cost might still be higher than that of Berkeley, which is pretty important since I also have to save money for med school (I hope). Other than that, it’s about the prestige. My parents are fairly traditional Asian parents, and they believe that it would be better for me to go to a more well-known college (at least more well-known in their communities).
UC Berkeley:
I just found out about it today and I was shocked. I got waitlisted by SD and LA so I though I stood no chance. It is pretty close to home, and the cost is more affordable. The resources at Berkeley is also a plus, although idk if undergrad students can get many resources. Another thing about Berkeley is its prestige, and direct quote from my dad “even if you don’t get into med school it would be easier for you to find a job as a Berkeley grad than a Smith grad.”
Cons for Berkeley:
First, its premed program is known to be super cutthroat. I also heard that the premed community is really competitive, which may not be the type of community that I thrive in. And Berkeley might just be too big for me since I really want to experience small class sizes and close relationships with professors.
Thank you for reading all of this! I would really appreciate your comments and advice!
(I want to make the decision soon so if I’m going to Berkeley I can choose the FPF program which accepts only a limited amount of student)
first of all, there is no major called ‘premed’ … I think you are aware of that… typically, students intending to go to medical school major in one of the biological sciences or chemistry, chemical engineering, biomedical engineering etc…
the problem with berkeley is grade deflation… the effort you need to put to get B+ or A is more than some other universities… and, grade matters for applying to med school… that is why students prefer colleges where grading is little relaxed…
This describes the opportunities available at Smith.
There’s a tendency on CC to pursue prestige academically downward, partly because it seems that name recognition may be valued over quality. Alhough this wouldn’t objectively apply to your particular choices — of which both are of deservedly high reputation — your family’s preconceptions may make it challenging for them to recognize the attributes of Smith that could make it the better choice for you. Along these lines, an online site says this regarding the desirability of the UCs for premed students:
The OP would like to “major in either molecular biology or biochemistry with a possible minor in history.” She has made it clear she understands that premed represents a track with expectations distinct from her major.
First of all, congratulations! You have a bright future ahead of you.
Be aware though that Smith College is having significant problems with its staff, due to unfounded charges of racism. These problems have made national news, and could potentially end up costing Smith a large amount in legal damages. You can read more about that here:
As a biology or biochemistry major (molecular and cell biology at UCB), the job prospects may not be all that great from any college if you do not get into medical school (most frosh pre-meds never apply to medical school, and most pre-meds who do apply get no medical school admissions).
https://career.berkeley.edu/survey/survey shows lower pay and higher percentage still seeking employment after graduation for molecular and cell biology graduates than the campus overall. You can compare specific majors (e.g. “Molecular and Cell Biology”), or groups of majors (e.g. “Letters & Science” “Arts and Humanities Division”) on that page.
No specific major is required for medical school, but you need to take the pre-med course requirements. About half of medical school applicants and matriculants were biology majors as undergraduates.
Congrats, it is hard to make a bad decision in this circumstance.
In the right circles–meaning grad school admissions–Smith is recognized as a very pretigious institution. Just because your neighbors might not have heard of it in CA does not mean it isn’t known.
However, I would hesitate to describe its environment as collaborative and supportive. That sounds like Mount Holyoke, Smith is much more cutthroat.
I would heavily consider fit and money. Have you been able to visit Smith?
If you want small classes and close contact to professors, you won’t find that at UCB. Most of your classes will have hundreds of students, then smaller sections led by TAs.
In terms of prestige, UCB is the most prestigious public university on the West Coast along with UCLA and Smith is part of the original Seven Sisters (where the Harvard Boys’ sisters used to go back when they couldn’t go to HYP.)
UCB will be more prestigious with your grandparents for sure. However the Smith alumna network is fiercely loyal.
Both have a reputation for political activism.
Smith isn’t relaxed and not as laid-back as, say, MHC, but it’s not as cutthroat as UCB premed.
I have not been able to visit. I have visited Berkeley a few years ago and I felt pretty good there. I didn’t get to sit in a classroom so idk how the classes are, but I really liked the location and weather. I also got into Moho but they didn’t give me a good enough fa package. I think I do enjoy a little bit of competition that pushes everyone to work harder, which is why I prefer Smith over Moho. Money wise, I just got my fa package from Smith, and it costs almost 10,000 more per year… I’ll try to negotiate with them and see if I can get more since I do believe Smith would be a better fit for me…
The pre-med ranking linked in post #3 does not specify what factors are considered and what sources of information are used. Such lack of transparency makes it less useful than most other rankings that give some indication of how they came up with the ranking.
If you want to know actual grade distributions by course at UCB, you can look at Berkeleytime and put in typical pre-med courses as listed at https://career.berkeley.edu/Medical/PrepPrereq . It appears that the typical pre-med courses have roughly one fourth of the students earning A- or higher grades, though there is some variation across individual courses.
Some of the listed factors are of dubious relevance or mixed value to pre-meds specifically.
Financial aid and selectivity rank. The student’s actual admission and financial aid are what matters.
Category.
Small classes rank. Not necessarily reflective of pre-med class sizes, if that matters to the student.
Pre-med popularity rank. Not obvious whether high or low is better. High could give a more cutthroat atmosphere, as well as larger pre-med class sizes. It also looks like they are assuming that biology major = pre-med.
Thanks for all the information. Personally I love every aspects of Smith except for its cost, but I know sometimes that can be a deciding factor. I will have to take out loans at either school, 20k per year at Berkeley and maybe 30k at Smith, which really add up over the four years. Plus I also have to budget for med school… I’m going to try to negotiate the aid with Smith, and considering they gave me a merit scholarship and accepted me early, maybe I can get some more?
It looks like both schools are too expensive. That much in loans would require parent loans or cosigned loans, which are unlikely to be a good idea. In addition:
Medical school is expensive, so dragging $80k-120k of undergraduate debt along to add to $400k+ medical school debt would make it longer to pay off after you finally complete medical school and medical residency after medical school.
If you do not go to medical school, it will be more difficult to pay off a large amount of debt on the pay level you are likely to find with a BA/BS in molecular biology or biochemistry.
I mainly applied to liberal arts colleges because the npc is not accurate at all and I thought I would be able to afford them. I got accepted into UC Berkeley, UC Davis, Smith, Kenyon (which is crazily expensive), Bryn Mawr, Mount Holyoke, and Scripps. I also have the option to go to a community college but I’m worried that I won’t get much research experiences there.
FPF may not be optimal for a pre-med or MCB major at UCB. Some of the common first semester courses for pre-meds and MCB majors like Chemistry 1A and Math 10A are not offered in FPF: Course Offerings | Berkeley Fall Program for First Semester
What can your parents contribute, and what is the net price (after subtracting grants and scholarships from list price) for each of these? How different are the net prices from the net price calculator results?
Do you live near enough to UCB or UCD to commute to college (living with your parents is probably less expensive than living on or near campus)?
If starting at community college and then transferring to a UC is the only possible way to afford undergraduate, it is doable for a pre-med, but more difficult because many medical schools look down on pre-med courses taken at community colleges (though if you are a science major, upper division courses taken at a UC after transfer should help “validate” your academic strength). Research opportunities will be more limited at a community college, but these are not generally considered the most important pre-med extracurriculars – volunteering or paid work in clinical settings, and volunteering in charitable activities helping the disadvantaged and underserved are generally considered more important.
First of all, congrats on some excellent acceptances.
You can appeal financial aid offers, and it is often possible to play one school off against another. Some schools will award you more, if you ask nicely and persuasively. If one of these excellent schools winds up being much cheaper than the others, that’s probably your best choice.
You do NOT want to go to a community college! Not if you are the kind of student who is qualified to get into the kind of places you got into. You probably had tougher classes in high school, than it would be in community college. It would be a waste of your time.
Any of the schools you’ve been accepted into, you’ll do fine at. You’re going to find better research opportunities at a large university, that has PhD programs and an associated medical school. For this reason, I’d choose Berkeley. If you’re so worried about cutthroat competition in the premed classes, then audit them over the summer at the local state college, so that when you take them at Berkeley it will be your second time around. After all, that only puts you on equal footing with all the kids who took AP Chem/Bio/Physics in high school.
Ohh thanks for the info about FPF.
I don’t live in driving distances to any of these colleges, so housing is a must. I believe my parents are unwilling to contribute more than 10k.
These are the net prices:
Berkeley: 24k
Davis: 22k
Smith: 32k
Bryn Mawr/Moho/Kenyon: 40k
Scripps: 50k
Thanks! I am planning to try to appeal, but since Smith is the school that offers me the most money, I don’t have another school to back up my appeal and ask them to match.
I’ve taken Multivariable calc and Stats at my local community college, and I agree that the classes there are way easier than my high school AP Classes.
I did take AP Chem/Bio/Physics in high school, but from what I’ve heard, the classes at Berkeley are harder than AP classes, and people may even get curved down.
Are those based on direct (billed) costs (tuition, fees, room, board) only, or including estimates for personal, misc, travel, etc.?
If they are based on direct costs only, the gap would be difficult to bridge. However, if they include other costs (see https://financialaid.berkeley.edu/how-aid-works/student-budgets-cost-of-attendance/ and Cost of Attendance ), there may be possibilities of frugal living to reduce the gap to what you can (barely) cover with a federal direct loan ($5.5k first year) and some summer and part time school year work earnings (although be aware that expected pre-med extracurriculars are time consuming).
If you have health insurance through your parents that includes providers near campus, you may be able to get the student health insurance plan cost waived.
One possibility at UCB is to live in a BSC co-op ( Academic Year Rates | Berkeley Student Cooperative , about $8k per year room and board, which is about $8k less than the UCB estimate for off-campus room and board). However, waiting lists are long, although living there in the summer will give you some seniority to move ahead in the waiting list.
In terms of difficulty of courses at UCB, you can compare syllabi and exams from UCB courses to what you remember from your AP courses (e.g. Chemistry 1A or 4A versus AP chemistry, Biology 1A and 1B versus AP biology, Physics 8A and 8B to AP physics 1 and 2) at Exam and Syllabus Database - Tau Beta Pi, California Alpha Chapter . For grade distributions, see the link in post #10 of this thread.