Smithie success in grad school

Colleges and Universities A-Z Smith College
1

<p>They're not quite the numbers I would have wanted, since they don't include Law or Medical or Business school, which I'd like to see broken out separately, but there's an interesting if contentious thread in the Parents Forum sparked by data showing percentage of students going on to receive Ph.D.'s within ten years of undergraduate graduation.</p>

<p>Smith was #31 in the country @ 8.9 percent. Wellesley as #24 at 10.4 percent...if anyone thinks that's significant, that's fine. </p>

<p>Others of note: Barnard, 8.3 percent; Williams, 12.7 percent; U/Chicago, 15.3 percent; Swat, 21.1 percent; Middlebury...6 percent.</p>

<p>This is a <em>far</em> better study than that idiotic but widely quoted Wall Street Journal "study" in terms of methodology. However, it still begs the question, as argued in the thread, does the college form the Ph.D. student or does the future Ph.D. student choose the college or is it in some mixture. In any event, Smith does just fine. </p>

<p>I do wish there was corresponding data for the various professional schools.</p>

2

<p>Just curious, is there any data on Amherst? Gracias.</p>

3

<p>Interesteddad wrote {{{Academic field: ALL </p>

<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database
Number of Undergraduates: ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database
Percentage of graduates receiving a doctorate degree. </p>

<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period
Note: Includes all NSF doctoral degrees inc. PhD, Divinity, etc., but not M.D. or Law. </p>

<p>1 California Institute of Technology 35.8%
2 Harvey Mudd College 24.7%
3 Swarthmore College 21.1%
4 Reed College 19.9%
5 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 18.3%
6 Carleton College 16.8%
7 Bryn Mawr College 15.8%
8 Oberlin College 15.7%
9 University of Chicago 15.3%
10 Yale University 14.5%
11 Princeton University 14.3%
12 Harvard University 14.3%
13 Grinnell College 14.1%
14 Haverford College 13.8%
15 Pomona College 13.8%
16 Rice University 13.1%
17 Williams College 12.7%
18 Amherst College 12.4%
19 Stanford University 11.4%
20 Kalamazoo College 11.3%
21 Wesleyan University 11.0%
22 St John's College (both campus) 10.6%
23 Brown University 10.6%
24 Wellesley College 10.4%
25 Earlham College 10.0%
26 Beloit College 9.6%
27 Lawrence University 9.5%
28 Macalester College 9.3%
29 Cornell University, All Campuses 9.0%
30 Bowdoin College 9.0%
31 Mount Holyoke College 8.9%
32 Smith College 8.9%
33 Vassar College 8.8%
34 Case Western Reserve University 8.7%
35 Johns Hopkins University 8.7%
36 St Olaf College 8.7%
37 Hendrix College 8.7%
38 Hampshire College 8.6%
39 Trinity University 8.5%
40 Knox College 8.5%
41 Duke University 8.5%
42 Occidental College 8.4%
43 University of Rochester 8.3%
44 College of Wooster 8.3%
45 Barnard College 8.3%
46 Bennington College 8.2%
47 Columbia University in the City of New York 8.1%
48 Whitman College 8.0%
49 University of California-Berkeley 7.9%
50 College of William and Mary 7.9%</p>

<p>51 Carnegie Mellon University 7.8%
52 New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 7.8%
53 Brandeis University 7.7%
54 Dartmouth College 7.6%
55 Wabash College 7.5%
56 Bates College 7.5%
57 Davidson College 7.5%
58 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 7.2%
59 Franklin and Marshall College 7.2%
60 Fisk University 7.1%
61 Wheaton College (Wheaton, IL) 7.1%
62 University of California-San Francisco 6.8%
63 Allegheny College 6.8%
64 Furman University 6.6%
65 University of Pennsylvania 6.5%
66 Washington University 6.5%
67 Bard College 6.5%
68 Northwestern Univ 6.4%
69 Rhodes College 6.4%
70 Agnes Scott College 6.3%
71 Spelman College 6.3%
72 Antioch University, All Campuses 6.2%
73 Kenyon College 6.2%
74 University of Dallas 6.2%
75 Ripon College 6.1%
76 Colorado College 6.1%
77 Bethel College (North Newton, KS) 6.1%
78 Hamilton College 6.0%
79 Goshen College 6.0%
80 Middlebury College 6.0%
81 Erskine College 6.0%
82 University of the South 5.9%
83 University of Michigan at Ann Arbor 5.8%
84 Drew University 5.8%
85 Wake Forest University 5.8%
86 Tougaloo College 5.8%
87 Goucher College 5.8%
88 Chatham College 5.7%
89 Cooper Union 5.7%
90 Alfred University, Main Campus 5.7%
91 Tufts University 5.7%
92 University of California-Santa Cruz 5.6%
93 Colgate University 5.6%
94 Colby College 5.5%
95 Bucknell University 5.4%
96 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology 5.4%
97 Concordia Teachers College 5.4%
98 University of Virginia, Main Campus 5.4%
99 Sarah Lawrence College 5.3%
100 Southwestern University 5.3%</p>

<p>101 Centre College 5.3%
102 University of California-San Diego 5.3%
103 Austin College 5.3%
104 Trinity College (Hartford, CT) 5.2%
105 Scripps College 5.2%
106 Clark University 5.2%
107 Hope College 5.1%
108 University of Notre Dame 5.1%
109 Connecticut College 5.0%
110 Luther College 5.0%
111 College of the Holy Cross 4.9%
112 Ohio Wesleyan University 4.9%
113 Juniata College 4.9%
114 Wittenberg University 4.9%
115 Transylvania University 4.9%
116 Asbury College 4.8%
117 Calvin College 4.8%
118 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 4.8%
119 Colorado School of Mines 4.8%
120 University of California-Davis 4.8%
121 Vanderbilt University 4.7%
122 Berea College 4.7%
123 Randolph-Macon Woman's College 4.7%
124 Millsaps College 4.7%
125 Union College (Schenectady, NY) 4.7%
126 University of Wisconsin-Madison 4.6%
127 Georgetown University 4.6%
128 St John's University (Collegeville, MN) 4.6%
129 Hiram College 4.5%
130 Illinois Wesleyan University 4.5%
131 University of PR Rio Piedras Campus 4.5%
132 Augustana College (Sioux Falls, SD) 4.5%
133 Andrews University 4.5%
134 University of California-Los Angeles 4.5%
135 Coe College 4.4%
136 Hanover College 4.4%
137 Worcester Polytechnic Institute 4.4%
138 Benedictine College 4.4%
139 Lafayette College 4.4%
140 Texas Lutheran University 4.4%
141 DePauw University 4.3%
142 Mills College 4.3%
143 Pitzer College 4.3%
144 Cornell College 4.3%
145 Emory University 4.3%
146 Denison University 4.3%
147 Stevens Institute of Technology 4.3%
148 Eckerd College 4.3%
149 Gustavus Adolphus College 4.2%
150 Oklahoma Baptist University 4.2%</p>

<p>151 Augustana College (Rock Island, IL) 4.2%
152 Lewis and Clark College 4.2%
153 Dickinson College 4.1%
154 University of Missouri, Rolla 4.1%
155 Birmingham Southern College 4.1%
156 Ursinus College 4.1%
157 University of Tulsa 4.1%
158 Monmouth College 4.1%
159 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 4.1%
160 Tulane University 4.1%
161 Alma College 4.0%
162 Washington and Lee University 4.0%
163 Ouachita Baptist University 4.0%
164 Georgia Institute of Technology, Main Campus 4.0%
165 Long Island University Southampton Campus 4.0%
166 St Lawrence University 4.0%
167 Lehigh University 4.0%
168 SUNY College of Environmental Sci & Forestry 3.9%
169 Albion College 3.9%
170 Centenary College of Louisiana 3.9%
171 Principia College 3.9%
172 Manchester College 3.9%
173 Union College (Lincoln, NE) 3.8%
174 Gettysburg College 3.8%
175 Chestnut Hill College 3.8%
176 Houghton College 3.8%
177 Spring Hill College 3.8%
178 Lake Forest College 3.8%
179 Wofford College 3.8%
180 University of Minnesota - Twin Cities 3.8%
181 Albertson College 3.7%
182 SUNY at Buffalo 3.7%
183 Willamette University 3.7%
184 Hobart William Smith Colleges 3.7%
185 Hamline University 3.7%
186 University of California-Irvine 3.6%
187 University of Colorado at Boulder 3.6%
188 Walla Walla College 3.6%
189 Hastings College 3.6%
190 Muhlenberg College 3.6%
191 Maryville College 3.6%
192 Westmont College 3.6%
193 Valparaiso University 3.6%
194 Trinity College (Washington, DC) 3.6%
195 Brigham Young University, Main Campus 3.6%
196 University of California-Riverside 3.6%
197 Albright College 3.6%
198 Whitworth College 3.6%
199 Bethany College (Bethany, WV) 3.6%
200 University of Texas</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=140694%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=140694&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

4

<p>I guess my response, is in the form of a question: when's the last time anyone heard of someone being rejected by a Ph.D program?</p>

5

<p>RLT is back!!! I thought maybe the cat had your tongue.</p>

<p>The thread itself is interesting, with a lot of discussion about statistics and correlation vs. causality. And which comes first, the chicken or the egg, the Ph.D. inclined student going to such and such a school, or such and such a school providing the environment that produces Ph.D. candidates.</p>

<p>JW, I don't know. But you have to assume there's an awful lot of self-selection in Ph.D. programs.</p>

6

<p>Not really.... Most PhD programs in the USA are actually quite easy to get into (if you are American). The "self-selecting" nature of the programs depends on the academic area.</p>

<p>Clearly, PhD programs at the very very very top-shelf institutions have rigorous admissions processes, but this list says nothing about the quality or selectivity of the programs in which these students are enrolling.</p>

7

<p>Numbers are further misleading in that a much, much larger proportion of Smith students (being female, low-income, minority, and/or first generation college students) are likely to pursue terminal working degrees in social work, teaching, advanced nursing (and, now, in engineering.) </p>

<p>All the Ph.D. numbers represent is ability of faculty to reproduce themselves (say I, as father of a d. who thinks she is headed off in that direction).</p>

8

<p>{{RLT is back!!!}}</p>

<p>Only when necessary :)</p>

<p>{{{and/or first generation college students) are likely to pursue terminal working degrees in social work, teaching, advanced nursing }}</p>

<p>Boy, don’t make that statement around the Smith campus or to a Smithie with an MBA from a top B school who is a sr. executive at a fortune 500 company, a PhD doing research at a prestigious medical school, an attorney working at a top NYC law firm or an MD, etc. The medical, law and business schools long ago opened their doors to women. Many Smith women--including those from low income families or who are 1st generation college students-- achieve a great deal of distinction in professions other than those they [and women in general] were relegated to in the past.</p>

9

<p>heh I'm a first gen college student and trust me, I wont be in any of those careers!! Politics baby, politics</p>

10

<p>"Many Smith women--including those from low income families or who are 1st generation college students-- achieve a great deal of distinction in professions other than those they [and women in general] were relegated to in the past."</p>

<p>Well, you can examine the numbers yourself. But the point is if you want a full picture of what is going on, you need to look at ALL terminal degrees not just Ph.D.s (You yourself mentioned MDs, law degrees, and MBAs, none of which are included in Ph.D. data.) (Otherwise, you end up comparing Smith with the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, which has similar Ph.D. rates - it would tell you next to nothing, again, except about the faculty's ability to reproduce itself.)</p>

11

<p>{{But the point is if you want a full picture of what is going on, you need to look at ALL terminal degrees}}</p>

<p>I’m not arguing the PhD numbers mean little, but that has nothing to do with my comment. Saying “ a much larger proportion of Smith students (being female, low-income, minority, and/or first generation college students) are likely to pursue terminal working degrees in social work, teaching, advanced nursing” is being extremely disingenuous to Smith women. I’m not disparaging any of those professions. My point is, Smith attracts the type of women that aspires to pursue other careers.</p>

<p>Take a poll on this board and I believe you’ll find very, very few Smithies whose aspirations are to become a teacher, (professor excluded) nurse or social worker.</p>

12

<p>I think if you go to the CDO and do an actual count of the number of Smith students in the years 1989-2004 who became teachers, social workers, or advanced practice nurses, you will see that the number is higher than the number who completed Ph.Ds. I believe you will find the same for female students at Swarthmore, Williams, and many of the Ivies. In doing so, they not only aspired to those positions, but also pursued terminal degrees in those areas.</p>

<p>You will also find that higher percentage of low-income and first-generation students in those areas (rather than Ph.D.s), and a much higher percentage of Hispanic and African-American students (many pursue JDs, MDs, and MBAs, but a very, very small percentage pursue Ph.D.s).</p>

<p>I think the best, most accurate point to be made is that Smith attracts women who pursue advanced degrees.</p>

13

<p>{{I think if you go to the CDO and do an actual count of the number of Smith students in the years 1989-2004 who became teachers, social workers, or advanced practice nurses, you will see that the number is higher than the number who completed PhDs.}}</p>

<p>Now I’m see the (my) confusion. I didn’t realize you were comparing the number of PhDs with those who become teachers, etc. </p>

<p>{{I think the best, most accurate point to be made is that Smith attracts women who pursue advanced degrees}}</p>

<p>That works :)</p>

14

<p>Ah, I see Williams has trumped Amherst by 0.3%... too bad I won't be contributing to their Ph.D. statistics after graduation. Even an MA/MS is iffy.</p>