So Much Love, So Few Spots

Colleges and Universities A-Z Tufts University
61

<p>
[quote]
That's a fair belief, but defining a "positive outcome" as admittance to a handful of colleges is a limiting way to think of success.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I very much agree that this would be a very limited way to think of success. But I don't think I ever defined getting accepted into a specific college as the litmus for success. While a completely different subject: To me success is more of a character issue. </p>

<p>However, the process of college admissions is not about whether or not you had a successful high school experience or whether or not you'll go on to any other type of success in life. Still, isn't the goal of the college application process to actually get in? And if the kid has used due diligence in looking at schools and knowing himself and getting good advice as to where he has a shot... well, hoping for that acceptance letter is pretty reasonable from my point of view. Multiple acceptances (aka positive outcomes) merely gives the kid more choices.</p>

<p>We actually left a great deal of the discussion about WHERE to apply and the application process itself to our son and the school's counseling office. My only involvement was to ask if there were going to be enough yesses in the pile when it was all over. And honestly, that is still my concern. That he is hoping Tufts is one of them is why he applied in the first place. He is already well aware that college admissions dont define him. But as his parent, all I really want for him is choice.</p>

62

<p>In regards to these scores: one must remember that the averages mentioned are the middle 50%. And what that means is that 25% scored above and another 25% scored below (i.e., you're only talking about 50% of the kids admitted). To up your chances of admission, it is probably best to be closer to the top (or over) than anywhere below it.</p>

<p>But as long as we're talking numbers ... how does Tufts look at the conversion of SAT to ACT? And although they say they will take either with no preference, do they honestly mean it? A good factoid to know would be:What percentage of accepted applicants submitted only the ACT?</p>

<p>According to the above linked info: a 2106 SAT (the average) is equiv to a 31 ACT. But some charts say a 31=2070, while others say a 31=2040... nether of which is 2100+. Granted it's small, but the question of whether they are looked at the same is a legitimate one.</p>

63

<p>Back to the questions!</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm just dropping in to say... I really liked doing the Tufts application. There's so much space to be you! But Dan, I have a question... what happens when you fall in love with all these different kids? How can you decide between them?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is where things get tricky and exciting/depressing at the same time; it's also why we have committee. As a reader of applications, its my job to look for a combination of voice and academic credentials to recommend for admittance. These are students who have the stats to be competitive (and this is a fairly wide range, not a fixed point), who can also demonstrate obvious engagement in ideas or the world around them. Maybe its a student whose recs are about using John L Stevens as a springboard towards an interest in bioarcheology. Or the student who can describe why climbing trees is a personally spiritual experience. Or a politically conservative student who enjoys living in a liberal town for the discussion it brings (or vice versa). There's an infinite number of ways to demonstrate those intellectual qualities and we're not looking for any single type of thinker, but rather for students who will be excited by what they see around them and interested in sharing that excitement with others. (Those of you who have visited campus might have noticed this quality; it isn't present by accident.)</p>

<p>Committee gives us the opportunity to see a greater swath of the applicant pool at once and to sift out who could bring varying qualities of thought to campus. </p>

<p>What exciting about this is watching the class fill with these awesome people who do and think about so many disparate and interesting ideas. Earlier there were comments about "selecting a well-rounded class composed of angular students," and I agree that there is a certain amount of that happening in our selection process at Tufts. But at a school as interdisciplinary as Tufts, a student needs to share our value of connecting ideas across boundaries if they possess more angular intellectual qualities. Personally, I find the prospect of a conversation about bee communication or about children's theater as a means to improve cognitive development to be thrilling. Seeing the thinkers and minds who will allow me to have those conversations next year is exhilarating. That does NOT mean that every student knows their interests already - far from it. I like the undecided students, I was an undecided student. But even the undecided students should be able to show how they think, even if they don't know exactly what excites them yet. </p>

<p>The far more challenging part of the process is that we simply don't have room to admit everyone in which I find those qualities. Most of the students we Waitlist fall into that category. It doesn't mean that are decisions are arbitrary: maybe the reader felt the love but part of the committee was less enthusiastic. Or maybe everyone loved an applicant, but the midyears grades dropped, undercutting the argument for admission. And that's why we use committee. As individuals (and human beings) its easy for us become personally attached to the applicants we read; committee provides a space of each admissions officer to check the bias of the others. I know I bring "too much" love, if there is such a thing, and I count on my peers to use their perspectives to make deliberate decisions with my applicants just as they count on me to use mine with theirs.</p>

<p>What this means: just because a student doesn't get admitted doesn't mean they didn't genuinely touch the lives of people on the other side of the file. Many times this year, I've read a file and thought, "I am privileged to know this person's life." Many times, I can build a case for that student to be admitted, but often I can't. Nevertheless, I am enriched for the experience of reading the file and my peers are enriched when I share it with them. I recognize that's a small consolation, smaller still since those students will not know that was the case, but it's an important and sobering reality I wanted to put forth.</p>

64

<p>
[quote]
That absolutely true neethus1. That is actually a great thing you said there. But the thing is that during the regular decision process, both the applicants with the lower numbers and higher numbers have almost the same chance (unless u have some horrible score like 500-550).</p>

<p>I talked to a college admission counselor and what he told me that, during the EDs applicants with higher numbers has great chance and applicants with lower number have no chance at all (why cuz the colleges don't wanna give discounts. It is like opening a new shop. Give less discount when u open it, later you increase the number of the discounts you give) So, if you would have applied to ED, I would say your chance is 20-30% as WCASParent said.</p>

<p>But since the colleges tend to accept students with a little lower grades and low SAT scores during RD, you chance of getting in increase. So now ur chance is 30-40% maybe 40-50% (depending on your recs, essays, ecs and the review from the interviewer.) The students with 700/+ scores-- well, they are mostly ivy candidates. So as some ppl said, Tufts syndrome takes place and applicants with lower scores get accepted. People say ivies usually don't accept anyone with scores lower than 660.. But remember Harvard,Tufts and Brown are "holistic" in their acceptance process. Harvard and Brown often accept applicants with lower SATs than their average as do the other ivies and great schools like Tufts. So now u have a better chance of getting in than what you usually should have. I personally know a person who got into Brown with 1620. (No lie. I swear to God) And the "holistic" system of Tufts and Brown are almost the same. Check out Brown's acceptance under 600 (23% CR, 17% M and 21% under sat on average in the class of 2012). Colleges understand that SATs don't prove that much about a student (except that a student is a good test taker) and that's why Tufts started it's essays to get to know you more. As my interviewer told me-- Tufts wants to know the person-you, then comes the numbers.</p>

<p>Brown Admission: Facts & Figures</p>

<p>But I seriously think DAN should come out and explin how Tufts feels about the SAT, if they have accepted any kids with lower SATs, if so how low. It is really confusing. I hear different things about the SAT from different people.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The Brown statistics you provided are skewed. Roughly 1/4-1/3 of major universities' freshman class are recruited athletes or URMs. I know the Tufts football team is allowed roughly 10 "A" recruits, 10 "B" recruits, and 5 "C" recruits every year. This means that a student with a C average(from an easy school) and terrible SAT scores is automatically offered admissions barring any major hidden problems.</p>

<p>Harvard accepts roughly 2000 applicants every year. Just because you know a non URM/athlete accepted with low test scores doesn't mean everyone who has low test scores will have a "good chance". Everyone is accepted for a reason. An applicant without a desirable niche and low test scores will not have any chance at all.</p>

<p>Whether you like to admit it or not, test scores are extremely important for higher education applications. In fact for grad schools in some competitive fields, test scores actually take precedence over grades.</p>

<p>As a side note standardized tests evaluate you on the basic skills(reading, writing, math for SATs) that you have learned in school, as well as the time and effort you are willing to put into studying. Intelligence and your "test taking ability" come in a distant second as impact on your test scores. If you don't believe me ask any Doctor, successful Lawyer, or successful MBA-er. Ask them how much time they spent studying for their receptive standardized tests, and how much their scores improved over taking their first practice test.</p>

65

<p>Ugh, my midyears were horrible, I think my GC addressed it in a letter, but bye-bye Tufts. :(</p>

66

<p>sowmit-
I think you are a magician, because you pull stuff out of thin air! Your reasoning is convoluted and nonsensical. In responding to another post about the 1 to 8 rankings of applications, you said that because a 1 or a 2 is hard to achieve, you would just consider a 3 a 2 and therefore assign a 2's higher chance of admission to such a candidate. Huh?
You also made up stuff about how many applicants have board scores in the 700s (you said about 500 of them), and when called on it you failed to respond. Schools like Tufts, which get thousands upon thousands of applications and have median SATs of over 700 obviously get thousands of applications from kids with scores well into the 700s, and lots of them must be rejected. Your responses are devoid of reason or sound analysis.</p>

67

<p>**Quote:
So when all these high school seniors get so wrapped up in the process and start equating their self-worth with admission to a certain school, I think the whole thing is just a little ridiculous. </p>

<p>Well said, and I think more people need to realize that. **</p>

<p>Admit that self-worth is not a direct function of admission through a (decidedly somewhat) arbitrary process? Here on CC? In the "Admissions" forum, of all places? What would everyone talk about? :-p</p>

68

<p>Dan, I know this has nothing to really do with this thread or discussion but I know you'll be reading this and I need a response ASAP.</p>

<p>Yesterday, I checked my TAMS account, and it said that I was missing all of my financial aid documents. The thing is, I know for a fact I turned everything in because all of my other schools received it as well. Today, I called Student Services to ask why, and the lady said that because I did not give them my SSN, it was shown as not being received. She then told me to email my SSN to someone so that they could clear this up, but she never told me who to email! Do you have any idea?</p>

<p>Also, I'm assuming decisions have already been made so how does this effect it? Did you guys not see my financial aid documents at all? Or were they looked at...just not noted on TAMS? I know Tufts says it is need-blind, but I feel like by looking at my documents/financial information, the decision could be effected.</p>

69

<p>Dan-</p>

<p>Since you said that committee is over, does that mean that you guys are done and can notify us before the 31st? ;)</p>

70

<p>TitusAndronicus---
I said MAYBE 500 of the applicants have 700/+ scores. I think you are mixing up between MAYBE and DEFINITELY 500. That was my guess and about the scoring: when you have 16000 applicants, 2000 acceptances (including wait listed students), I would say about 800 (I doubt that) of them will accept perfect 1, you probably have like 2000 with 2 and 3s. But most will be with 4 or 5s. But keep in mind, Tufts is not looking for students who get perfect 1s. They will probably take 300 (Probably. Hope you DON'T mix it up too) students from those 800 perfect applicants. They are also looking for students who struggled their way through high school and succeeded. A lot of those students don’t have 700s. They accept students with 2+3+4 and 5s but 2-4s (guessing that they have almost the same quality of essays, good recs, good ecs) have almost the same chance and 5s have lower chance of getting in but it’s not like they DON’T HAVE ANY CHANCE AT ALL BECAUSE THEY DIDN’T GET 700 ON THE SAT. In fact I know couple of students who were accepted to Tufts RD with 650, 670, 640 and 680s. Remember the mean is 700. That means 50%. So, there must be +50 and -50 on both side of the acceptance scale. If neethus1’s numbers are (650-699), that means she has a pretty good shot.
To give you more example--- The average SAT of MIT is more than Tufts. (2150+ I guess) but this year a student from my school with got accepted 3.89 UW gpa and 1810 SAT (NO he is not athlete/URM) So, there is always exception and I am just saying that could be neethus1 too. So she has a chance of both getting accepted and rejected (50-50) but because CC brag about the SAT soo much, I am saying that her chance is now (30-40 or 40-50%). The rest depend on her geographical data, essays, recs and ecs. These can increase her chance or decrease her chance of gtting in. Hope this makes sense. xxxx (mwl - 2.19.2009) --></p>

71

<p>Detail--- I don’t remember saying that scores are not important at all. What I said was scores don’t prove who you are, it proves how good of a test taker you are and yes it does evaluate you on your basic skills that you learned. But time and effort you put in—Disagree. I know bunch of kids (this time not 1 but quite a few) who put a lot of time and effort studying for SAT and got below 1700 and also a few kids who didn’t put ANY effort at all but did very well. (More than 1850)
And as you said everyone is accepted for a reason. There might be a reason that a student with low SAT is accepted because he/she is able to sell them through their essay/ recs. So it’s not like a student with low SAT has no chance at all. If a student can sell himself, he definitely has some chance (which is better than no chance at all) </p>

<p>FYI- Both of my dad’s friends kids are doctors and they both scored less than 1800, were accepted to Harvard Med School and now successful as doctors. Yes it is true that most of the doctors have high SATs but there are also exceptions where doctors have lower SATs and still successful. My cousin who graduated from Tufts last year told me that after you get into college, no one cares what your SAT was. All that matters at that point is you work hard and get good grades in college. I know plenty of people who got lower SATs, FAILED AP classes but still managed to get A-/B in their college courses (even at Harvard) because most of the people from my district has relatively lower SAT but still my school sends it’s top 15 students to Top schools like Harvard, Brown, Columbia, Tufts, BC, BU, Wpi, Neu, TCU, Williams college every year.</p>

72

<p>And I think neethus1 is a minority- I think Asian which gives her relatively higher chance than let's say a white person. If not minority, well then she has about 35-35% chance. BTW, alot of the people on CC say that Asians are not minority anymore but as Tufts define them -- Asians, African American, Native Americans, Latinos are still minority.</p>

73

<p>
[quote]
FAILED AP classes but still managed to get A-/B in their college courses (even at Harvard)

[/quote]

How did they get into Harvard with F's on the record? </p>

<p>Reminds me of this kid at my school who told me that he knew someone who transferred from Lehigh to Harvard because Lehigh was too difficult and he couldn't get a decent GPA there. Erm, I don't care what your wrestling coach said, you can't transfer into Harvard (even when they took transfers) with bad grades.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I think Asian which gives her relatively higher chance than let's say a white person.

[/quote]

Being Asian hurts you in admission to most top schools.</p>

74

<p>That F was in third quarter of his senior year and didn't send in his transcripts anymore after second quarter. Besides that was his only F in 4 years. He was like top 5% and had As in rest of his APs.</p>

<p>I knew that being white hurts one's admission. Being Asian depends on students' ethnicity like being Indian/ Chines/ Cambodian/ Japanese (according to what my cousin who heard from a Harvard admission counselor)</p>

75

<p>Being white doesn't hurt, it's neutral. When race is removed as a factor, the number of white people actually decreases as spots are taken by Asian people. You can easily see this by comparing the demographics of the UC's and Caltech (which don't discriminate against Asians) to Stanford (which does).</p>

76

<p>sowmit:
you just don't get it, so i give up. you continue to draw purported conclusions from made up "facts" because you have no statistics. you don't respond to actual points that have been made because you lack the critical reasoning skills to do so, so in lieu thereof you set up "straw men" to knock down, and only continue to reveal your utter lack of knowledge and familiarity with the college admissions process as you do so.
i see that you are a relative newcomer to the U.S. i hope that you get into a good school, since that is clearly important to you, but also because you desperately need to hone your analytical and forensic skills.</p>

77

<p>TitusAndronicus-- I see what you mean about the SAT but you also have to accept the fact that colleges also accept students with low SAT not because those students are athletes/ URM because there might be something in an applicant's application that might stand out despite his low scores and those your so called "made up facts" did take place in real life and if that you don't believe, I don't know what else to say except to give up.</p>

78

<p>Since both of you give up, back to the question--- </p>

<p>Thanks Dan for coming out for coming out and telling us how the admission process really work. It shows how human adcoms are and I am sure that this quote -- "just because a student doesn't get admitted doesn't mean they didn't genuinely touch the lives of people on the other side of the file" will make a lot of the applicants feel better even if they get rejected. </p>

<p>Appreciate that Dan. You are a great human being.</p>

79

<p>BTW, as you stated Sowmit you don't have any chance of getting into Tufts. So, why do you even bother replying to Tufts University threads? I think you should reply to threads to the schools you have a chance of getting in and that Probably would be Umass Amherst or some colleges like that. I am not trying to be mean though, just stating what you said and then speaking the facts.</p>

80

<p>^ Oh, I totally forgot about that (that I am not qualified to get into Tufts) Thank you for reminding me that. I might as well do that. Thank you <strong>sigh</strong> (ppl are really nice here)</p>