<p>Payne, thats what I’m saying. I want to make 100k+ but I dont want it to take 20 years. </p>
<p>Global, how do you pick what areas to work in? Like do you have to pick your intended field of software engineering in college and take classes based on that (ie networking) or do you gain equal knowlege on everything, making it possible to work in and field such as OSs, networking, security, etc. </p>
<p>Mind telling us your degree and salary over time?</p>
<p>it usually takes about 5 years for someone to go from BS to PhD… so subtract a year since ull already have ur masters</p>
<p>"Global, how do you pick what areas to work in? Like do you have to pick your intended field of software engineering in college and take classes based on that (ie networking) or do you gain equal knowlege on everything, making it possible to work in and field such as OSs, networking, security, etc.</p>
<p>Mind telling us your degree and salary over time?"</p>
<p>As far as undergraduate coursework (late 1980’s), before the term “information technology” became popular, it was merely “information systems”. I essentially took the same undegraduate courses in the areas I mentioned in the previous post: operating systems, computer networks and database systems I & II. I was a math major so I still had to take the necessary prerequisites for those courses. I took those courses because I was already researching employment trends back then and all the experts/pundits were saying these will be the “hot” areas.</p>
<p>I was unable to obtain an internship. I didn’t have super-high grades either (3.0 in major). What I did grab was a very part-time job working for my school’s College of Medicine…managing their little off-the-shelf database system that basically managed patient information. Still, I had not decided on “databases” to be my area.</p>
<p>Somehow I was still hired by the now defunct Westinghouse in Pittsburgh, PA right out of undergrad. They did NOT tell me what exactly I would be doing. The offer letter just said “Associate Scientist for the Software Development Group”. My very first day at work, Westinghouse enrolled me into their INGRES database training class (which was hot then…1990). After that, I did database development and the rest was history.</p>
<p>The undergrad coursework prepares you to be able to learn material and/or research techniques to FIND where to learn a technology. It is up to YOU to learn it and stay up to date. Places like Borders Book Store will be your girlfriend and wife for the rest of your career.</p>
<p>I won’t give you my current salary directly, but I will tell you that it took me about 9 years to make $100K. Keep in mind, I graduated undergrad in 1990 and was deeply in the then-super-hot area of data warehousing. Also keep in mind that I was living in the Philly area at that time, so that is a different cost of living than living in Wisconsin.</p>
<p>I got married and moved to the Washington DC area and after 4 more years of private industry work, discovered that federal defense/INTEL agencies pay up to $50,000 more per year if you obtain top-secret security clearances. I jumped at that opportunity also. So if you factor in that I now have 20 years experience, started making $100K about 10 years ago and got a near $50K boost the last 5-6 years for getting a clearance, you can get a ballpark of my income. Well, add in the raises but also add in where engineers “ceiling out” and add in the recession. I do know some folks in SoftE who are independent consultants (1099’s) and the bill at $90-$115/hour.</p>
<p>Thank you for the information Global. It is very helpful.</p>
<p>Hmm, so if I do a joint BS/MS Computer Engineering degree (5 Years) will I have already “found” my technology area? Or is this degree also just prepping me to “learn/material and/or research techniques” and then move on to learn more? </p>
<p>And wow, that clearance thing raised your salary by 50k a year? Can you explain what exactly is a “top-secret security clearance.” </p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Alleviate…</p>
<p>Your “niche” may come from your emphasis in your BS/MS program or it may be a result from what you like (or good at) after your first 2 or 3 jobs. Keep in mind, you can specialize in one area and employers hire you for something totally different. My background was more of a “scientific software developer” since my B.S. degree is basically a math/computer science combo but when Westinghouse hired me, they put me into their database training course. Even before I settled into databases, I previously did work as a C++ developer and later on PowerBuilder before I turned my attention to strictly databases.</p>
<p>I always wanted to make sure that I could “keep checks coming”, so I decided to take systems engineering as my M.S. degree so I could also work in that area. Of course, after so many years, I started leading teams and started doing project management…even to the point that I went I got a certification in project management (PMP). The thing is project management usually requires long days and more stress because you are now responsible for a TEAM’S work…not just your own.</p>
<p>As far as a security clearance, it’s better if I point you to one of many sites about them:
[Security</a> Clearance FAQs](<a href=“http://jobsearchtech.about.com/od/governmentjobs/l/aa_security_2.htm]Security”>Technology Careers)</p>
<p>Because of the increase in pay that a security clearance bring, you have many folks who were pretty high in technical management or I.T. directors going back to just becoming “grunt” engineers/scientists once they get a clearance. The jobs just being a cleared grunt engineer pays more than being a engineering manager in the private sector. Right now, I would HATE to go back to the private sector. I would have to be some high-level senior I.T. director, deputy CIO or something like that to earn the same money as a cleared grunt software engineer contracting for an INTEL agency.</p>
<p>Ah, I see. Thank you. But why does it say that security clearances are no longer conducted? </p>
<p>Another question: Does it really make a difference, salary-wise and oppurtunity-wise, to graduate from UF with a BS/MS in CS as opposed to GTech with the same joint degree? I’m asking because I’m instate Florida so going to UF would only cost 5k intuition as opposed to over 20k for Gtech… </p>
<p>Basically I just want to make the most salary possible and have a lot job oppurtunities not because of greed but I ultimately want to give back everything to my parents. They have done everything for me and we receive low-income but they still work their butts off. So it would be nice to be able to support them in the future :).</p>
<p>“Another question: Does it really make a difference, salary-wise and oppurtunity-wise, to graduate from UF with a BS/MS in CS as opposed to GTech with the same joint degree? I’m asking because I’m instate Florida so going to UF would only cost 5k intuition as opposed to over 20k for Gtech.”</p>
<p>If you would be able to, a bachelors in CS from UF and then a masters from GT would probably be most preferred. I would think going for a bachelors in CS right now at UF would be the best choice, and then when it gets time for the masters, see what happens.</p>
<p>Thanks Qwerty! But that choice would mean I have to do 4 years at UF and 4 years at Georgia Tech right? </p>
<p>That’s a really long time compared to the Joint BS/MS that only takes 5 years… And what’s the catch with these BS/MS programs? Are they really hard compared to 8 years since it slices off 3 years?</p>
<p>A masters usually takes 1 to 1.5 years (for engineering/CS). A PHD takes 4 to 5 years. The joint BS/MS might save you a semester (at Michigan if you’re an automatic admit for a masters, they let you double count 6 credits), but you’re not saving a lot of time.</p>
<p>Security clearance are still being done. I picked that site because it explained them better than other sites.</p>
<p>“Another question: Does it really make a difference, salary-wise and oppurtunity-wise, to graduate from UF with a BS/MS in CS as opposed to GTech with the same joint degree? I’m asking because I’m instate Florida so going to UF would only cost 5k intuition as opposed to over 20k for Gtech.”</p>
<p>This question is the most subjective/objective question on this board and will get mixed answers. I would say that maybe in more competitive job areas and niches, having that GTech degree would matter. I would say an area like software engineering, where some niches have way more jobs than available candidates…a GTech degree will not matter as much.</p>
<p>I will say this…</p>
<p>Right NOW…TODAY, the National Security Agency have engineers contracting for them, earning nice pays whose schooling is like the following: 2 years at one of the local Maryland Community Colleges…finished up their B.S. at one of the schools under the “University of Maryland Umbrella” (U-Maryland, U-Maryland Baltimore County, Frostburg State, U-Maryland Eastern Shore, Morgan State Univ, Towson Univ, U-Maryland Univ College) and probably did some M.S. degree online.</p>
<p>They know Java or databases or crypto or networks or Info Assurance and can pass a polygraph. That’s it.</p>
<p>Oh wow, I didn’t know that Qwerty! So there’s really no point in the joint thing… I thought it saved 3 years so I was confused. If i were to get my BS at UF in CS can I do a straight PhD in CS at Gtech? Like does PhD include masters or you have to get masters first? Basically from high school -> PhD would take 8-9 years? </p>
<p>Global, nice pays as in?</p>
<p>Ehh, I’m just confused as what to do. UF or Gtech or UMich…I don’t want to suffer from a 10k-15k shortage in salary because of the school I end up choosing.</p>
<p>Some programs may give you a masters on your way to getting a PHD, others may not. You do not need to get a masters before getting a PHD. </p>
<p>Either way, you probably ought to just go to UF for the bachelors, and then apply to various schools for a masters or PHD. The school that you get the graduate degree from is the important one, not the bachelors. Save the money.</p>
<p>Alleviate…</p>
<p>At the INTEL agencies, if any SoftE has some experience, they are making $100K to $200K…depending on experience, niche area and whether they work for a company or are independent.</p>
<p>I would agree with “upgrading” your M.S. degree school over your B.S. degree school. For one, if you are working for a nice company, you can have them pay for your grad school. Unless those MIT/Mellon/Cal Berkeley/GTech grads had scholarships and/or rich parents…they have high student loan bills. Even IF you were paid $7000 less (I doubt you would be paid $15K less), you would not have $30K+ in loans to pay off.</p>
<p>I did my grad work at U-Wisconsin (mostly online) since the Industrial Engineering program (where most systems engineering programs are) was ranked #10.</p>
<p>Ahh, that’s the perfect answer I was looking for Qwerty, thanks a bunch! </p>
<p>And do people normally get their BS and then go straight to work and do their Masters/PhD later on in life? Or go straight to PhD? </p>
<p>I see, Global. Is it hard to get into an INTEL agency? 100-200k for around how many years, like around 10 or 20+? </p>
<p>And you agree with UF for BS and then other schools like UMich/GTech for Master’s/PhD?</p>
<p>GlobalTravler</p>
<p>In my year and a half of reading countless posts on this forum, I have never read a thread where a poster was as such a valuable resource for me and my personal goals as you. Thank you so much for posting. It means alot, even if it wasn’t intended for me. </p>
<p>With that said, one of my dream jobs would be to work for the NSA or CIA. One of my biggest concerns is recruitment. How does one get employed by these agencies? Don’t they only hire elite developers? </p>
<p>What do you think will be the best way to gain employment into the CIA or NSA? I am currently a student at UMich. Do you think I should try and secure an internship, and hope that leads to future employment? Thanks again.</p>
<p>Agreed with WolfPackfan :D.</p>
<p>Hey Wolf, are you a senior in HS right now or senior at UMich?</p>
<p>EDIT: Nvm, I see the arrow now lol, you’re going to UMich this fall. Can you list your stats that got you accepted into UMich?</p>
<p>I think its really arrogant to assume you can make $100k within 5 years of graduating with a BS and working in software.</p>
<p>Its POSSIBLE, but not easy. The average CS major makes 97K with 15 years experience. Of course its not bad…but one should be realistic.</p>
<p>And as far as graduating with a BS from a top school and getting paid 90K to start at google/microsoft? That’s just a myth. I’m not saying its never happened before but don’t keep your fingers crossed. Probably 65k is realistic for a BS.</p>
<p>
Yeah, that’s <em>not</em> a myth. That’s just reality. Google doesn’t hire CS students at 65k/year.</p>
<p>“With that said, one of my dream jobs would be to work for the NSA or CIA. One of my biggest concerns is recruitment. How does one get employed by these agencies? Don’t they only hire elite developers? What do you think will be the best way to gain employment into the CIA or NSA? I am currently a student at UMich. Do you think I should try and secure an internship, and hope that leads to future employment? Thanks again.”</p>
<p>1) To get hired by the “Big 3” (NSA/FBI/CIA), you must either a) apply/be approached by the agency and they will put you through the security clearance process OR b) some defense contractor hires you and places you in the security clearance process. You HAVE to obtain at least a Top-Secret/SCI clearance to work for any of those 3 agencies and more likely have to take a polygraph.</p>
<p>2) I doubt that every developer is “elite” because if so, they messed up hiring me, lol. First, there are TONS of positions that are not just for elite crypto mathematicians and computer scientists. Now from what I hear, to get into those crypto programs, they may hire the MIT/Mellon/GTech/Berkeley grads, but those jobs are small in number compared to all the other needs. Still, the schools that are represented are a mish-mash from little-known state schools to the elite schools. Hell, I attended Michigan State (undergrad) and led teams with team members reporting to me from Carnegie Mellon, GTech and Illinois. Right now my technical manager is from that engineering powerhouse called Loyola College of Maryland, lol.</p>
<p>3) The best way to gain employment (early) into NSA/FBI/CIA is gain an internship. That way, your security clearance process will be easier because you will have less years for the agencies to conduct a background check on. The agencies go back 10 years or to age 18, so if you are a current college student, your former addresses would just be your parent(s) home and your dorm/apartment. I don’t know about FBI/CIA but NSA hires quite a few summer interns and some interns whose schools has co-op programs. Your clearance is only snatched away if you don’t use it for 2 years, so you can get a clearance and keep using it every year that you are in school.</p>
<p>The 2nd best way to gain employment is for a defense contractor to approach you, hire you and put you into the security clearance process.</p>
<p>starting salary ranges from 60-80ish depending on cost of living in the area. standard raise at most companies is something like 4-5% although if you excel and/or switch jobs you can probably get more like 8-10% each year on average.</p>
<p>once you get to 120-140k in your 30’s, chances are you will never make more money unless you move up to management and/or become an independent contractor. </p>
<p>it is a good life, but you will never be rich. it will take you to a solid upper-middle-class lifestyle (nice house in the burbs, etc) but you won’t be driving a porsche.</p>