Some students are going to choose the cheaper option when it comes to college

Parents Forum
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<p>newmassdad -- I agree with you.</p>

<p>Consider the tuition at UCLA, which is currently about $8,500. A student might very responsibly choose to live at home or in inexpensive off campus housing, take 12 units per quarter, and work a 20-25 hr. job off campus (let's suppose it pays $13/hr), vs. 16 units per quarter and an 8 hour job. That student more than pays for their tuition, making $15,000, but it does mean that student will likely take three instead of four courses each quarter. That student will graduate in 5 yrs. instead of 4 (throwing in a few units from AP or from summer session).</p>

<p>I would say such a 5 year graduate is exemplary, and not having graduated in 4 years should not be seen as a failure of the student, their family, or the institution.</p>

<p>4 yr. graduation % really only appropriate for students who work less than 20 hrs per week, -- so, basically like some other inapproriate measures used by USNWR (alumni giving, freshman retention), doesn't make sense as a measure of quality for public universities.</p>

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<p>The Robert E. Cook Honors College of Indiana University of Pennsylvania is also very holistic, with (I believe) a test-optional application option. Seems to be a PA trend!</p>

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<p>There are obviously many variables to consider when calculating how long a student takes to graduate from college. Most colleges publish 5 or 6 year rates - people change majors, they work, take short leaves of absences, do poorly in a class or two, study abroad, take internships, etc. Some students need to take classes with more lab components which also are much more challenging, and as such may not take as many classes as another student in a class with fewer labs. </p>

<p>All kinds of things can happen - that is why those are averages in the rankings and published in common data sets. </p>

<p>A good thing to do (if possible) is to ask a student in your major or department who is a junior or senior to get a better picture of what that campus is like. Can they get their classes? A girl I work with attends UCLA. She is a senior this year, and each quarter (yes, each) has not been able to get a required course she needs to stay in sequence. She has referred to other classmates in the same boat. When she started as a freshman, she thought it was because she didn't have priority registration, and got the bottom of the barrel classes. When it kept happening each registration, she started seeing it as an issue of too many students vying for the same classes. That is not to say that this happens everywhere. Much of the problem she sees are oversubscribed classes and too many students impacting registration. There could be other issues - not hiring enough faculty, hiring shortages or freezes, lack of interest in certain departments, classroom scheduling issues - who knows. </p>

<p>Too many kids trying to get the same classes can make it hard to get your courses completed on time. A smaller private college may not offer enough variety, limiting the options of classes available each semester or quarter, as well. Many privates are now offering a 4 year graduation guarantee.</p>

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<p>littlegreenmom... >>> There could be other issues - not hiring enough faculty, hiring shortages or freezes, lack of interest in certain departments, classroom scheduling issues - who knows. <<<<</p>

<p>Yes! Some schools are expanding their enrollments without increasing the necessary infrastructure - including more classrooms and more profs. </p>

<p>Another problem can arise when a required 2-3 hour lab class (which only meets one day a week) is only offered at a time of the day that many other needed classes meet. </p>

<p>Is it my imagination, or are more courses now requiring "labs"? I certainly understand science & engineering classes having labs, but some philosophy, math, and a host of other classes are also requiring labs. Those 2 -3 hour labs, that each meet one day a week, can wreak havoc with a student's schedule when trying to take other needed classes as well.</p>

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<p>I think that a math class can have a lab to use technology like Mathematica to work on their problems. A logic course out of the Philosophy department might make use of these tools too. I can definitely understand packing more students in classes too. It's just like the airlines are doing and you can obviously get lost in the crowd.</p>

<p>As others have mentioned, more planning is in order a few semesters down the road and students need to jump on the system when open enrollment starts to get the classes that they need for their major and their schedule. Our son already has his class schedule for the Spring. All of the classes are required for his major so there isn't a lot of choice. We haven't discussed classes that are offered every other year but that might become a problem down the road.</p>

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<p>sounds a lot like me..if they don't offer me scholarships, my parents are like striking off schools left and right. i'm left applying to only a handful of schools..i've even stopped dreaming of going to a better school. its so sad.</p>

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<p>It's not sad; it's being realistic.</p>

<p>Son received a note from a professor basically saying to jump on advising when it opens up. The economy is in the toilet and the number of students is up so that you might not get the courses that you NEED of you don't sign up early which requires signoff from your advisor.</p>

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<p>hopeful,</p>

<p>Students excel at a broad range of colleges. It is up to you, not the college, so hang in there. </p>

<p>Interestingly, there is a lot of debate and research in academic circles regarding whether the college one goes to even matters in life success, or whether it is all in the student. Personally, I think for some students it does matter, mostly those sensitive to peer influences. But consider that if the "college quality" issue were substantial, it would not be debated. Instead the effect would quickly jump out from the research. The fact that that has not happened should tell you that the effect, if it even exists, is subtle at best.</p>

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<p>I think that college quality aspects can make a difference. If a student needs a lot of handholding, then a small college with lots of resources to help out may be a better choice for a student. On the other hand, if you don't have a problem with professors from around the world that are hard to understand in both oral and written form, TAs that have the same problem, having to jump on things that aren't on the syllabus or rules anywhere, deal with the vagaries of fluctuating state budges and politics, then State Universities may be just for you.</p>

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<p>More-affordable</a> colleges on student, parent minds - The Boston Globe</p>

<p>While application figures won't be available until next year, recruiters at the state's public colleges report unusually high turnouts at college fairs and campus open houses this month. Amid turbulence in the stock market, which coincided with the start of the college selection process, students are peppering admissions officers with questions about financial aid and loans.</p>

<p>Michaud, who advises one family whose six-figure college fund lost 65 percent in one week, said parents are taking a keen interest in the University of Massachusetts system and the state's public colleges, which cost an average of $6,400 a year. Enrollment at state public colleges rose sharply this fall, an increase that administrators attributed to the slumping economy.</p>

<p>The projected rise in families seeking financial aid is not expected to have a major effect at the wealthiest schools, such as Harvard, MIT, Dartmouth, and Wellesley, which admit students without considering their ability to pay and meet families' full demonstrated need.</p>

<p>"A lot depends on how quickly and if this all settles down," said Laurie Pohl, vice president for enrollment and student affairs at Boston University, which costs about $50,000 a year. BU recently imposed a hiring freeze and a moratorium on new construction projects in anticipation of increased demand for financial assistance.</p>

<p>But many students said they were applying to a range of colleges with little regard to cost, and would worry about paying for it later. As Barr told the students, the average grade point average (3.5) and SAT score (1,155) for entering UMass freshmen, many sighed in regret.</p>

<p>"Right now, they are far more worried about where they can get in," said guidance counselor Lynna Williams.</p>

<hr>

<p>At least one area that CCers don't have to worry that much about at state schools is grades and test scores.</p>

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<p>newmassdad, "Regarding "selective program that basically only Ivy caliber students are able to enter, if such a program exists at some low ranked state school?" Plenty of these programs? Surely you are kidding."<br>
- I was not kidding. D. is at state school, not any highly ranked. Her program accepts only 10 kids into freshman class. D is also in Honors. Requirements for Honors are ACT=32, top 2% of class. These stats are not a joke. There are plenty of these at our state schools and I imagine that other states have them also.<br>
If you can afford Ivy's, go for it. But there is no reason to look down at your state schools. 80% of MD's in my hometown graduated from my hometown Med. School (not highly ranked). I trust that they all got superior education. All engineering firms in my hometown hire primarily from hometown university (not highly ranked either).</p>

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<p>
[quote]
"Let's be bluntly honest - most American high school students don't really study that hard. I went to one of the better high schools in the country, and even so, the vast majority of student were not really interested in studying, but were far more interested in partying, gossiping, talking about the latest fashion and music trends, and basically managing their social lives."</p>

<p>Is that a bad thing?</p>

<p>There is plenty of time to get serious. You're only young once. There should be a time in a person's life when he or she should let go, explore, have fun, live in the moment.</p>

<p>There is plenty of time to study and work hard later.</p>

<p>What society does to teenagers in this country is awful.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Look, if you want to not work hard and enjoy life in high school, hey, it's your life. </p>

<p>But at the same time, you shouldn't then turn around after that and except to get into a top school and/or a nice merit scholarship over those students who did choose to work hard. If you didn't really want to study and decided that you'd rather enjoy yourself, you then have to accept that you probably won't get into as good of a school nor get as much merit aid as you might have otherwise. I would argue that that's exactly how it ought to be. Those people who choose to work hard should be rewarded, and those who don't work hard should not be rewarded. </p>

<p>This then only validates my point: if you as a parent are worried about paying for college, then you should be teaching your kids to work hard so that they can get merit money or can get into a top private school that offers strong financial aid. If you choose not to do that, hey man, I don't know what to tell you. Basically, that means that your kids should get privileges without having to work for them.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
If you didn't really want to study and decided that you'd rather enjoy yourself, you then have to accept that you probably won't get into as good of a school nor get as much merit aid as you might have otherwise.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This makes sense. Students can still use their own money and their own effort to go to college if they relaxed during high school. The third-party money should be directed first of all at the students who are most prepared for college by how they used their time in high school.</p>

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<p>"But at the same time, you shouldn't then turn around after that and except to get into a top school and/or a nice merit scholarship over those students who did choose to work hard. If you didn't really want to study and decided that you'd rather enjoy yourself, you then have to accept that you probably won't get into as good of a school nor get as much merit aid as you might have otherwise. I would argue that that's exactly how it ought to be. Those people who choose to work hard should be rewarded, and those who don't work hard should not be rewarded."</p>

<p>I agree.</p>

<p>And I don't think a person has to go to a top school to do well in life or get a great education.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
"But at the same time, you shouldn't then turn around after that and except to get into a top school and/or a nice merit scholarship over those students who did choose to work hard. If you didn't really want to study and decided that you'd rather enjoy yourself, you then have to accept that you probably won't get into as good of a school nor get as much merit aid as you might have otherwise. I would argue that that's exactly how it ought to be. Those people who choose to work hard should be rewarded, and those who don't work hard should not be rewarded."</p>

<p>I agree.</p>

<p>And I don't think a person has to go to a top school to do well in life or get a great education.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Exactly. If you didn't work hard in high school, and you don't have any money, then you can still get a college degree at night school, while working during the day to pay for it. Sure, it probably won't be at a top school. It will probably be at a low-level commuter school. But if you put hard work in, you can still get a strong education nevertheless. </p>

<p>But my point simply is this: you can't get something for nothing. If you want to get ahead, at some point, you will have to put in hard work. If you didn't work hard in high school, then you will have to put in hard work in later. That's life. Surely we can all agree with that. </p>

<p>The bottom line is this. I don't think it's that hard to outstudy most high school students, because, let's be honest, the vast majority of them don't study very hard at all. They're far more concerned with their social lives and being popular than with their schoolwork. Now, if you didn't want to put in the hard studying, fine, but then that means that you're just going to be like everybody else, and yes, that means that you probably won't get any merit rides or admissions to the top private schools with strong financial aid. But that's how it should be - as those things ought to go to those students who did make the choice to work hard.</p>

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<p>Unfortunately, I think there ARE kids who get merit scholarships who did NOT work very hard.
Life isn't fair. I know kids who work their butts off studying - and get only Bs. Those same kids can have a hard time getting good standardized test scores. They're NOT stupid - just blessed with different gifts. Some have extraordinary interpersonal skills but are lacking in the skills that help them perform well on tests. And I also know kids who sail through high school with As and not much effort - take a couple of prep classes and ace their SATs. Money is then thrown at them from all directions. Fair? I think not.
Luckily , it all evens out later in life. Those solid test takers can struggle in later life and the C students can shine. Getting a perfect score on the SAT means nothing.<br>
Back to the original question though, I think all students should try to seek out the best deal they can find. No need to shell out big bucks for a "name" school. I think we may finally see a turnaround on this trend...after years of crazy status-seeking behavior.</p>

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<p>MiamiDAP: Those stats are about average for flagship honors colleges/programs, but hardly Ivy-caliber. And as many people will argue, stats by themselves mean surprisingly little regarding the quality of student.</p>

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<p>For the wealthy, the public university honors option can be a terrific one.
For the middle class, you have more options.</p>

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<p>My H found that in the early 1980s (also during a recession), it was cheaper for him to attend an Ivy than SUNY/Binghamton. His father was unemployed for two years of H's college years, and H had to work and take out loans, but it was doable.</p>

<p>I cannot imagine telling younger S that he cannot have the same options his brother did. The promises we made extended to both of them. They have been living up to their end of the deal, so now it's our turn.</p>

<p>I'm thankful we didn't have lots of college $$ tied up in mutual funds, that we bought a house less than what we "could afford" back when prices were low, and that we have not touched the equity. (I'm also thankful I haven't opened my 401(k) statement yet.) I am immensely grateful older S is paying more than half the bill this year through his efforts. That pace won't continue, but his ability to contribute 25-30% to the cause is a big help.</p>

<p>That doesn't mean H and I don't occasionally reflect wistfully at the better merit offer he had...</p>

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<p>Keilexandra,
I did not say that all Honors student are Ivy-caliber. I stated that those who got into selective program that accepts only 10 kids / year are. The 10 that are accepted had to do much more to get in than just show good stats. I also mentioned that there is good number of these programs at state schools.</p>