Some things I have picked up on regarding admission at the top schools

Applying to College
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<p>I agree with pretty much everything stambliark posted except the importance of SAT II's. I don't think they're really that important.</p>

<p>GPA is more important than SAT scores. If you haven't learned this by now, shame on you. College admissions websites ALWAYS list the toughness of your courseload and your grades as the single most important factor (check the Common Data Sets if you need verification). How well you do on a single test taken on one day does not outweigh the work of four years. The SAT is obviously not the be all, end all- otherwise, why would schools like Bowdoin not require it?</p>

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<p>warblersrule86: SATII's are very important. In fact, combined with the SAT scores, they hold near equal significance as one's GPA. According to "A is for admission" written by former Dartmouth admission officer, the academic index that elite colleges use do value SATII scores to a rather great extent. and try not to assert a point without any given support.</p>

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<p>Note that I said "I don't think they are that important." I did not say "They are not important." I've known many people to get into good colleges without great SAT II's (including me). Considering how few colleges actually require them, I think it's odd to think they'd put a lot of weight on them. Also, everyone tends to take the subject tests they do the best in, leaving a great deal to be desired as a "standardized" test. Scan the rosters on CC. Most posters will SAT II scores in the 770-800 range. Despite this, the majority of them will be rejected at HYP. In the big scheme of things, I think things like your essay will far, far outweigh your SAT II scores. Schools like Harvard brag about rejecting 60-70% of the 1600 scorers who apply. Why do think this is? They don't want high-scoring automatons; they want a balanced freshman class.</p>

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<p>SAT Scores & GPA</p>

<p>· SAT scores NEVER get you in, but they can keep you out. At Harvard, for example, there is little difference between a 2300 and a 2400 but there is a huge difference between a 2100 and a 2200.</p>

<p>Look at the list of those admitted to Harvard on the official decisions board.</p>

<p>· GPA is way more important than SAT scores. Barely top 10% w/ a perfect SAT doesn’t stand a chance against a Valedictorian w/ a 2200. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.brown.edu/Administration...andfigures.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.brown.edu/Administration...andfigures.html&lt;/a>
From Brown University...
-Valedictorian (33%) with 700V/700M (25%) = ~30%
-Barely top 10% (8%) with 800V/800M (35%) = ~20%</p>

<p>· SAT II scores are very important. Low SAT II scores with high SAT I’s perpetuate the same disdain for the “lazy” high SAT / low GPA kids. </p>

<p>This is from A is for Admissions, but you can also see it from the results threads.</p>

<p>Stats & EC’s / Essays / Recs</p>

<p>· GPA/SAT are more important than extracurriculars /essays/ recs. This only becomes false once you are near the top on both the GPA and SAT chart; then the other factors distinguish applicants.</p>

<p>See the information about rank above. Extras rarely make up for mediocre stats.</p>

<p>· A dearth of extracurriculars is not the kiss of death that people make it out to be. A couple unique experiences woven into a beautiful essay is good enough when complimented by great stats. </p>

<p>This is an observation, so I could be wrong. :)</p>

<p>· Extracurriculars – except for a handful (RSI, national awards, etc.) – mean little without a great essay. The reason having a “passion” is important is because of the essay. Activity charts primarily serve just to make sure you were involved.</p>

<p>This is an observation, so I could be wrong. :)</p>

<p>· Your teacher recommendations are not “excellent” unless they are the “best of my career” kind of recommendations; everyone gets nice letters. However, if you get a handful of “excellent” recommendations, they really help.</p>

<p>This is a combination of some observation coupled with what some admissions officers have said. It is understandable that most recommendations will be great but not OUTSTANDING - consider the kids that are applying.</p>

<p>Class Rank & Competitive High Schools</p>

<p>· Your high school is not competitive unless just about everyone goes to a four-year college. Your high school is also not competitive if it would be shocking that somewhat in the second decile would be accepted to the Ivy League or similar schools.</p>

<p>Once again, more of an observation. Forgive me!</p>

<p>· Unless your high school is competitive (see above), merely top 10% will just almost never cut it at the top schools. Brown publishes data that only 8% are accepted with class rank in the 6th – 10th percent class rank range. Once hooked applicants are taken into account, this number is most likely in the neighborhood of a 4-5% acceptance rate.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.brown.edu/Administration...andfigures.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.brown.edu/Administration...andfigures.html&lt;/a>
From Brown University...</p>

<p>· On that note, top 5% is average. It won’t keep you out, but it certainly isn’t a plus. GPA is only a plus if you are in the top 1-2%, and even then it usually isn’t enough.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.brown.edu/Administration...andfigures.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.brown.edu/Administration...andfigures.html&lt;/a>
From Brown University...
60% of the applicants whose schools ranked were in the top 5% of their class. By definition barely top 5% is average.</p>

<p>· Surely a downward trend of grades is deadly, but an upward trend isn’t as great as people make it out to be. If your class rank is still low, see above. If it’s not, you are probably in the clear. But keep in mind: Harvard has 3,000 Valedictorians and countless other 4.0’s – not to mention you – competing for 2,000 spots.</p>

<p>This information is available somewhere (regarding the Vals). But once again, look for low ranks in the results thread - doesn't happen very much.</p>

<p>Regarding URMs
· If you are turned down from a top school, it’s not because of underrepresented minorities. Assuming all URMs are unqualified (which is completely untrue), only 600 applicants would be affected – this represents only 3% of the applicant pool at the elite schools. It would be awfully arrogant to assume you were in the top 3% of the rejected pool.</p>

<p>This is observation, but it is based on fact and isn't really up for debate.</p>

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<p>The fact that the posters on this site cant come to a consensus on the criteria of what the top colleges really want is information enough that these schools dont have a set in stone method for reviewing candidates, nor can any one of the factors discussed help or hurt a qualified applicant significantly. The way I see it is that the colleges will use gpa/sat/act/sat II as a gauge to merely sift out those who they feel wont be competitive. It is my understanding that in the scheme of admissions at the top schools they weigh the person in all aspects as heavily as they way their scores and grades.</p>

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<p>Extracurriculars are considered after your test scores and GPA? Are they really not that important?</p>

27

<p>NYJeff is correct. There is no cookie-cutter formula; every individual case is looked at holistically, and different colleges have different methods to some extent.</p>

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<p>oh god, what a downer.
enough already, people!</p>

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<p>Regardless, all the colleges I have contacted and with whose representatives I have spoken have echoed that Grades (GPA/Class Rank) followed by Standardized Test Scores are the most important parts of an application. Everything else (with exceptions, ie. athletes, large donors, legacy, famous family, etc.) is considered only if the above are within reasonable range.</p>

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<p>So, if a school sees that your standardized test scores are sub par, they then just throw out your application?</p>

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<p>^^ My SAT was sub par and I was deferred by Princeton. They could have easily rejected me like they did others on this board with higher SAT scores.</p>

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<p>IvyLeague, see <a href="http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_09/b3973092.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_09/b3973092.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Depends how subpar you're talking about. If you're applying to Harvard with an 1800 SAT, unless you're an olympic medalist or your dad is the president, then chances are you're not going to get in.</p>

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<p>I would guess that, for any particular good school, there are few things that automatically get you in. On the other hand, there are many ways to get your application round filed, absent a major hook or status category. Standardized test scores below their 25 percentile, out. Same with GPA or class rank. Absent, of course, being a super athlete, absurdly rich, or a Nobel prize candidate.</p>

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<p>My SAT scores were not 1800 but they were in the 25 percentile and I was not outright rejected. Of course I will most likely (almost guaranteed) be rejected in the RD round! </p>

<p>My point is that I did not get rejected during ED while other people with higher SAT scores did. Do not assume, just because an applicant has standardized test scores in the 25 percentile means an automatic "out".</p>

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<p>I think one should not underestimate the power of athletics...even mediocre athletics...as an advantage in gaining admission to academically elite D3 schools. They've got to stock their teams with athletes that have proven through their HS years that they can successfully weave athletics around their courseload. Alumni, even at D3 schools, like successful sports teams. Happy alums = donations. So if you have any interest in any sport, explore it in HS. It may help a lot if you apply to an elite D3 school as a senior....Just my opinion, of course.</p>

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<p>Yet another useless topic.</p>

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<p>^^ Not half as useless as your post.</p>

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<p>Ben Jones from MIT admissions, wrote a really great posting on the Parents forum where he states:</p>

<p>*Thanks to both Mootmom & ADad for their invitations to contribute my opinions to this thread. Sorry for the delayed response; as mootmom noted above, I've been out on fall recruitment travel with limited access to the internet for the last 3 weeks.</p>

<p>As with most of my posts in the parents' forum, I'll try to respond both as an MIT adcom and also as a parent. This'll be sortof long, sorry.</p>

<p>First, the MIT adcom perspective.</p>

<p>I don't know the exact numbers; I couldn't tell you even if I thought it would be helpful. Numbers mean nothing to us because ~70% of our applicant pool is qualified in those terms.</p>

<p>Based on the thousands of apps I saw last year both in selection committee and as a reader, I can tell you that the average # of AP's for admitted kids was 5 or 6 (that's total for all 4 years of HS - i.e. 1-2 per year if evenly distributed). Many admits (most likely the majority) had no college classes. The most common AP's taken were in math and science (no surprise, it's MIT). The overwhelming majority got 4's and 5's on all tests.</p>

<p>I'll pause here to add that I frequently saw kids with perfect SAT scores and perfect grades and a gazillion AP classes get rejected. Why? Because often these kids knew how to grind, but brought nothing else to the table. And that's not who we're looking for at MIT. We admit kids who show genuine passion. Sure AP's can be one of many passion indicators - but I emphasize one of many.</p>

<p>When I was on the road, kids asked me repeatedly whether or not they should take a given AP class.</p>

<p>"Well," I'd respond, "would you be taking it because you genuinely want to, or simply because you think it will get you into college?"</p>

<p>Sometimes they didn't know the difference, which is a tragedy that deserves its own thread. But I digress.</p>

<p>And this is where you all start saying that adcoms are talking out of both sides of our mouths: we encourage kids to follow their hearts in the choices they make, and then as adcoms we want to see that they've taken "the most challenging courseload."</p>

<p>To which I say: guys, I work for MIT! If a kid doesn't want to be taking a challenging courseload in high school, that kid is certainly not going to be happy here.</p>

<p>Quite simply, the students who are happiest here are those who thrive on challenge. Most of our admits have taken AP math and science because they would have been bored silly in the regular classes. Indeed, they genuinely wanted to take those classes. They don't look at MIT as the prize; they look at MIT as the logical next step. It's an important distinction.</p>

<p>That said, AP's are not the only way to demonstrate that one is passionate and likes challenge. Read Anthony's story for an example:</p>

<p><a href="http://anthony.mitblogs.com/archives/2005/06/hello_im_anthon.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://anthony.mitblogs.com/archives/2005/06/hello_im_anthon.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>When faced with the choice, we will always choose "the right match*" over numbers. We're not lying when we say that. You've heard me beat that sentiment to death in other threads, so I won't do so here.</p>

<p>(*Match = mission, collaborative spirit, hands-on, balance, character, and passion, among others.)</p>

<p>But the reality is that when you have 10,500+ applications for ~1000 spots and 70% of the pool has great numbers, your pool is going to have plenty of kids who have the passion and the match and the scores/grades/AP's. So we admit those kids - what other choice do we have?</p>

<p>But then (understandably) you guys say "Look! You need X, Y, and Z to get into MIT!" To clarify, we don't require those things; many of our admits just happen to have them. And, I might add, for the right reasons.</p>

<p>This brings me to the more important part, where we toss my affiliation with MIT out the window and I give you my thoughts as a parent.</p>

<p>There is only one coin. There are many sides to the coin, but there is only one coin. And you can flip it however you like.</p>

<p>So when a parent says to me, "Why does HYPSM put so much emphasis on AP's?" I reply "Why do you put so much emphasis on HYPSM?" When a parent says "My kid's value as a person/student shouldn't be measured by how many AP's he/she has taken" I say "...and your kid's value as a person/student shouldn't be measured by whether or not he/she goes to HYPSM." I could go on and on.</p>

<p>There are literally hundreds of amazing colleges and universities out there (some of which actually admit kids with no AP's!). Many of them would actually be better matches for your child. Many of them would provide your child with a better education. Most importantly, many of them would ultimately give your child a greater sense of happiness and fulfillment. The right match will do that.</p>

<p>And the match goes both ways. We try to determine if your kid is a good match for MIT. Your kid should be trying to determine which school is the best match for him/her. As a parent, what are you doing to help him/her figure that out?</p>

<p>Here's a hint: if you're spending time obsessing that a lack of AP's is going to keep your kid out of Stanford, you're missing the point.</p>

<p>As I told the kids in my blog, I had a wonderful college experience that I wouldn't trade for anything, at a school that is currently only #23 on the USNWR LAC list (The HORROR!). I got a phenomenal education and can certainly hold my own against any Ivy grad. As a bonus I got to grow up, get married, have kids, buy a house, land a great job, and enjoy life.</p>

<p>I took one AP class in high school.</p>

<p>Make sure your kids are choosing their schools for the right reasons. Name, status, "brand" - these are not the right reasons. Let your kids be kids. Let them follow their hearts. Encourage them to have a present, not just a future. Don't let them define themselves by which colleges accept them - and don't let them define themselves by doing things only to get into certain colleges.</p>

<p>The machine is fed from all sides. USNWR, the media in general, the GC's, the parents, the colleges and universities, the high-priced independent counselors, the test prep people...</p>

<p>My kids are still many years away from college, and I'm no expert on the parent side of this process. But I do know one thing: I will fight to protect them from all of this, to help them with perspective and clarity. Because if I don't, who will?</p>

<p>Because if we don't, who will?</p>

<p>-B*
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=97255&page=3&pp=20%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=97255&page=3&pp=20&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Ben Jones (who is a great guy) writes of top grades/Sat's like they are nothing. 70% have them. What about the 30% that doesnt have the grades? If you don't have the top Sat's, the top Gpa etc.? You get rejected, even if you have the "passion". How disapointing is that? </p>

<p>Ugh, I don't have the grades for it. I'm better than some applicants I'm sure, but below the great majority of them. I do the things I like to do and I have fun with them (I ran a marathon) but they aren't going to get my into HYPMS without the stats.</p>

<p>So in short, if you want to get into HYPMS, you'd better have the grades and the passion.</p>