Sometimes Smith wins, other times....

Colleges and Universities A-Z Smith College
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<p>Relative to Bryn Mawr, since the percentage of students receiving need-based aid is virtually exactly the same, (and in addition, Smith has merit aid awards that are given to students who don't qualify for need-based aid), it is likely that Smith is more generous throughout the economic spectrum.</p>

<p>Compared with, for example, Bates and Haverford, the maldistribution of aid would have to be rather extreme for them to come even close for upper middle income families. (Since both are also members of the Consortium of Financing of Higher Education - COFHE - their formulas for aid will be very close to that of Smith.) It is very, very likely, though, that Harvard and, especially Princeton, are more generous to upper middle class students who, in the long run, they don't wish to see drift away to schools that offer large merit aid awards. That's the point of turning what would be small loans into grants.</p>

<p>Princeton hasn't posted its most recent Common Data Set. For the most recent they posted, they gave out $53,598,000 in need-based aid for 4,719 students, or an average of $11,358 per student, MUCH lower than Smith. However, only 50% of the student body received need-based aid. The average size of need-based awards is virtually exactly the same as Smith's. However, Smith also had merit awards for students who didn't qualify for need-based aid. I am sure the Princeton numbers are higher now, but even with their no-loan policy, would still not be as generous as Smith. The big difference, however, likely lies in the small awards replacing loans for upper middle class students.</p>

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<p>I don't think it paints a realistic picture to take the total aid awarded and then divide it by the TOTAL number of students who attend that institution to find out aid per student because, quite frankly, that's not the case.</p>

<p>58% of the Smith student population is roughly 1490 students, so per student receiving need-based aid, that number is about $26,074.50. That number for Bryn Mawr, using the same metrics, is $22,278.48. Because Smith has such a higher percentage of Pell Grant recipients, yet there's only a difference of about $4000 per student receiving aid, I would agree with the small awards to upper middle class students hypothesis.</p>

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<p>Except that you forgot that Smith awards merit aid to students who would not otherwise qualify for financial aid (Bryn Mawr does not).</p>

<p>But it is a reasonable hypothesis for Bryn Mawr. It likely isn't a reasonable hypothesis for Haverford or Bates. If you subtract the percentage of Pell Grant recipients from the total of those receiving any need-based aid, Smith still is awarding more need-based grants to a higher percentage of students. Add in the merit aid awards, and, frankly, I don't think it is really close.</p>

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<p>I didn't forget, I specifically stated that those were numbers for need-based aid only. Factoring in merit awards, however, actually lowers Smith's number to roughly $25,748 for 1543 students (numbers from most recent CDS). It's still significantly higher than the other schools mentioned (save Bryn Mawr), but I don't think that Smith's as generous as you claim. For a school that has such a high percentage of lower-income students, it's not that far ahead in terms for aid per student.</p>

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<p>Merit aid adds to the overall number of higher income students receiving aid. The $26,074 is for need-based only.</p>

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<p>To the original poster:</p>

<p>My D is from the Los Angeles area. Smith was her FIRST choice. Our efc was 22K fafsa and 26K profile (got that one off the calculator), which we can just afford. We needed some FA, so she carefully applied to schools a touch below her statistics with the hopes of being able to go to a small LAC instead of our giant UCs. Smith is below her statistics. She applied to two slightly higher statistics LACs on a whim, too. Smith touted itself to be a 100% need school, so it was with great hopes that she applied. She got into five liberal arts colleges and was waitlisted at the two toughest admission LACs and admitted with Regents Scholarships to all three UCs she applied to. </p>

<p>These were her offers. All offered work study and a loan if she wanted it:
Bryn Mawr: 26K all in grant plus a plane ticket to go and visit.
Dickinson: John Dickinson Merit-$17,500 a year guaranteed (their highest) plus 7K in grant
Occidental: 21K grant (and it is cheaper then Smith) plus a zero interest institutional loan if she wanted it.
Lewis and Clark: A 10K/year merit (their highest) plus a 16K grant.</p>

<p>...and in case you think she may have been a borderline Smith candidate?:</p>

<p>UC Berkeley: Regents scholarship (ie: only pay room and board and books)
UC San Diego: Regents scholarship
UC Santa Cruz: Regents scholarship</p>

<p>THIS WAS SMITH'S OFFER: 8K grant and loans. </p>

<p>Even if she had taken the loans there was absolutely no way we could afford it. Smith costs 54K. They expected us to come up with 46K? They were over 20K too low since they were also the most expensive college she applied to. It was just way too much to make up the difference. She asked me about appealing the FA decision, but I told her they were so far off they probably didn't want her too much, unfortunately. She was so upset she threw away all the Smith stuff. A wonderful invitation to a Los Angeles area tea came in the mail for accepted students and she threw it away. She asked how come they were doing that when they knew we could never afford Smith. She mailed back the decline card and was in mourning over Smith for a while. </p>

<p>Smith is a wonderful college, don't get me wrong. But, they made it abundantly clear that they pay no attention to the fafsa or the profile. My D decided that she wouldn't have fit in there anyway if people all have to be super rich to go there. No matter how hard we tried to figure out how to send her there, it was impossible. Fortunately, those other four schools DID want her. :) </p>

<p>AND, she had her choice.
AND, she will need no loans.
AND she is thrilled to be attending Bryn Mawr College in the Fall. It is a fantastic school, too!</p>

<p>PS I have thought about why Smith's offer was so much less then the other schools. The only thing I can come up with is that they look more at the families income then they do at the fafsa and profile. Perhaps the equity in our home is looked at long and hard, but we couldn't afford the house if we took the equity. Our income is good. Our income in the midwest or South would seem pleasantly high, but here in LA County it is just comfortable. We have saved 70K for our third child's college. We felt proud of that! It was hard to do! Even so, it will be a big squeeze the next four years, but the other schools made it possible for her to go to a LAC. I wish Smith had, too.</p>

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<p>Smith is probably very generous to the lowest income students. It is those like my daughter who are middle to upper middle, but without high enough income to pay 54K a year outright, that are not looked upon as favorably. I wonder why, too? I mean, wouldn't it be in the schools best interests to accept two or three of my daughters income to one very low income student? Or, does Smith wish to have a two tiered school: The wealthy who need no aid and the poor who need fullrides? That doesn't seem healthy, either.</p>

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<p>Smith is not need blind and I know it has wait listed students who have been accepted to far more competitive need blind institutions.</p>

<p>If the money is being given to Pell recipients I think that's okay. Each school decides on its own priorities.</p>

<p>I'm pretty sure that's why S was accepted at Williams and wait listed at Amherst. Just another white kid from LI was not what Amherst was looking for. (In that case money was not the issue.)</p>

<p>Pretty sure he would have been rejected at Swat too, for similar reasons, though he didn't apply. Dartmouth rejected him whereas Brown accepted him. I think math SAT score was the issue there, though he did have quite a good score. I just D was more numbers oriented than B.</p>

<p>Each school sets its own priorities. I'm glad both kids ended up somewhere wonderful that we could afford. No, we didn't completely have our pick, but I'm okay with that.</p>

<p>citrusbelt: I'm sorry. I know it hurts to watch your kid have to give up her heart's desire. I didn't mean this as a lecture to you. I fully understand your disillusionment. But I bet your D will have a great time at Bryn Mawr/Haverford. Both are truly lovely campuses. And Philly, too.</p>

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<p>Wow. I didn't mean to come off bitter or disappointed. Far from it! My D is going to a fabulous place and she had a choice of fabulous places. I know Smith is a terrific place, too. My D will be going to school in a castle. It's very cool. I just jumped into this thread because the original poster is from the same area of the country that we are from and my D was one of those kids who chose another school because of the poor FA at Smith. Another one of her friends chose Wellesley over Smith for FA aid reasons, too, by the way. That friend is also middle/upper middle income.</p>

<p>Smith is not need blind in admissions,I never said they were. What I said was they say they meet 100% of need of the admitted applicants and they clearly don't do that. If they don't use the profile or the fafsa to determine that need, what do they do? </p>

<p>It is very easy to explain how Smith could have a high aid/student rate, but still give most students poor packages. It also explains why they have such a high pell grant percentage. It appears they offer money to very low income students, but not much to middle or upper middle ones. Maybe they don't look at where in the country a person lives. They might even have a cut off of income regardless of the fafsa or profile, only Smith knows. It just seemed weird to accept a student and then not allow them to go, that's all. In many ways it would have been easier to just have a reject.</p>

<p>The fact that the schools my D was accepted to all gave her decent FA (7 of them) is perhaps why Smith's lack of it stuck out so much. That, coupled with the fact that it is one of the most expensive colleges in the country, is going to make it harder for students to go there. It wasn't like their offer was a little lower, you know. They were low enough that it wasn't possible for her to go no matter how much gerryrigging we did with the numbers. Maybe they expected a parental loan? Middle and upper middle income students (100-180K per year) might be able to suck it up where a low income wouldn't qualify for the loan? </p>

<p>It is probably like you said, they didn't want her that much. That's what I told her. But, why accept her in the first place? Bryn Mawr is about the same or slightly higher selectivity then Smith, so that isn't the issue. UC Berkeley is far more selective then Smith. My D is now saying she would have chosen Bryn Mawr over any of her schools and Smith's disappointment is totally gone after visiting Bryn Mawr. I don't know if she would have chosen Smith over Bryn Mawr or the others or not. She never saw Smith, there was no reason to visit. </p>

<p>I would just hate to see Smith become a school for only the wealthy and the low income. They need some middleys in there, too.</p>

<p>Here's a thought: If Smiths yield was lower this year (I think many colleges will be in this position) then maybe they will need to go to their waitlist. People who need no financial aid are usually the first offered a spot off the list. ;)</p>

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<p>smith actually gave me the best FA package out of all the LACs i applied to. i seem upper middle class on paper, but smith considered my special circumstances. i was ready to appeal, just in case i had to, because smith was also one of my top choices. i would've been devastated if i couldn't attend smith because of financial issues.
i have a friend who appealed to the FA office. it was a very long and meticulous process, but the FA staff was willing to help. she ended up with 4x more grant money than she originally received. i think if u are willing to spend the time appealing, the FA office will be more than happy to help.</p>

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<p>I am so happy Smith was generous to you, pinkpanther, and I hope they continue to be. It is hard to look at any one person's offer. The OP just made the comment that the yield for students in the LA area was low. I don't know a single person from my area who appied, got in and is actually going! I suspect you don't live in LA. :)</p>

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<p>Another point to ponder. My D was offered realistic packages at 7 other schools, so why would she hassle appealing the one school that didn't offer the aid? She didn't have to. Also, if you appeal the first year, does that mean you will have to fight for FA every year? That was the other concern. What a drag that would be. Why grovel when you don't have to?</p>

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<p>This issue, luckily, was one that I did not have to face with my D (although she got a great merit package from Smith and we were extremely happy to get it- only one school, RPI, beat it by adding a 5th year of their merit scholarship offer to include a 5 year master's program.) However, I will say to Citrusbelt that Bryn Mawr had the absolute best food of any campus we visited (and we went on a random weekend and just walked in and bought brunch tickets) and I hear they do fondue on Valentine's day! I'm sure she will be very happy there- Bryn Mawr vs. Smith was a consideration for my daughter too. (Bryn Mawr doesn't offer merit scholarships though so although we had not expected finances to be even part of our equation when it came to Smith with a huge package and Bryn Mawr with none we were pleased that she had found Smith to be a better fit independently of the financial consideration too. It will make financing graduate school easier.)</p>

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<p>My D got wait listed at schools that weren't need blind and didn't want to pay for her.</p>

<p>Citrusbelt: I would rather have the choice than have the school make it for me.</p>

<p>The Universe has funny ways of making its will known. She accepted her second best offer. DS wanted to go to the school with the best offer just because. And now they have eliminated loans!! Woohoo!</p>

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<p>"Smith is not need blind in admissions,I never said they were. What I said was they say they meet 100% of need of the admitted applicants and they clearly don't do that. If they don't use the profile or the fafsa to determine that need, what do they do?"</p>

<p>They use the same formulaic assumptions as the 30 other members of the Consortium on the Financing of Higher Education (COFHE), which includes all of the Ivies, all the major prestige LACs, and a few others (JHU, Duke, etc.)</p>

<p>"Smith is not need blind and I know it has wait listed students who have been accepted to far more competitive need blind institutions."</p>

<p>Smith has made it very clear how they manage need. They are need-blind for the first 95-97% of applicants accepted. After that, they check to see whether they have actually spent their budget. If they haven't, they are "need-blind" for the rest; if not, they manage their budget.</p>

<p>Actually, though, there isn't a need-blind school in the country (except Cooper Union, Olin, and, maybe, the military academies). Smith has made it clear that socio-economic diversity is a top priority, and so they work hard NOT to be need-blind so that they accept an ample number of low-income candidates. Same as Amherst, same as Princeton, same as Williams - the difference being is that they don't hide behind the need-blind mythology.</p>

<p>The data on Haverford, Bates, etc. (though not Bryn Mawr) is very clear. Smith both accepts a higher percentage of non-Pell Grant students who receive financial aid, and awards them more money.</p>

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<p>...but not if they're from LA? Mini, I looked up the other 31 schools in that consortium:
* Amherst College
* Barnard College
* Brown University
* Bryn Mawr College
* Carleton College
* Columbia University
* Cornell University
* Dartmouth College
* Duke University
* Georgetown University
* Harvard University
* The Johns Hopkins University
* Massachusetts Institute of Technology
* Mount Holyoke College
* Northwestern University
* Oberlin College
* Pomona College
* Princeton University
* Rice University
* Smith College
* Stanford University
* Swarthmore College
* Trinity College
* The University of Chicago
* University of Pennsylvania
* The University of Rochester
* Washington University in St. Louis
* Wellesley College
* Wesleyan University
* Williams College
* Yale University
It seems Bryn Mawr is part of it, too. ;)</p>

<p>Actually, schools that give merit aid tend to not be as generous overall as schools that give need aid only. That is certainly a fair way to do things. Dickinson does that, too. It helps to be able to buy some students that wouldn't otherwise go. If a family doesn't qualify for aid at a 54K a year school, I don't care who you are, that is a hefty amount of change. Being offered any kind of merit would be attractive, especially for those at the FA cutoff levels. The other way to buy students is to offer those you really want good FA packages based on need and those that are maybe not as desirable more loans or gap them significantly. Smith appears to gap many students. It is their perogative and they are the ones trying to form the kind of class they want. There really is nothing wrong with it. What is wrong is to say you meed 100% of need and then clearly do not do that. Gapping was the experience around here with those we know who applied (just four people in her class of 580, we talked to her counselor, none could afford Smith). </p>

<p>Mythmom, my D was waitlisted at two schools that we thought she would easily get into, also. I think it was just a very tough year for admissions! She felt good that she didn't receive any rejections. </p>

<p>Oh, and yes Synergy, Bryn Mawr had the best food of any college we visited. Dickinson's wasn't too shabby, either!</p>

<p>I shall leave you Smithies alone now. Smith is a terrific college and a great place. Nothing I have said changes my opinion of any of that. I would be terribly interested to know how much they have to dig into their full pay waitlist students, though. The rumor is Bryn Mawr won't be using their waitlist, but that is just a rumor. ;)</p>

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<p>Oh, and Georgetown, the OP's school of concern, is in that same consortium. How do you explain that?</p>

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<p>From the Smith website:
"Our need-based aid program begins with a consistent, yet personalized, assessment of each applicant's ability to pay for college expenses. Smith meets the full documented need, as determined by college policy, of all admitted students who apply for aid by the published deadlines. Some admission decisions may include an assessment of the student's level of need. These need-sensitive evaluations affect approximately 5 percent of all applicants."</p>

<p>FYI, I am actually from LA. Citrusbelt, I wish your daughter at least attended the local tea for accepted students. She might have gained some advice, since Smith was her first choice. I have found that attending the local teas (first as a prospective student and second as an admitted student) gave me (and my mom, who was a bit skeptical about Smith at first) very valuable insight both about financial aid and academics from alums and current students.
But then again Bryn Mawr is a fine institution as well. I know someone who stayed there for a summer program and commented on how much she felt like a princess. (Apparently, they changed her bed sheets for her!)</p>

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<p>Citrusbelt, I don't think your D was a borderline applicant in the Smith pool, but the merit awards from Lewis/Clark and Dickinson indicate that she was a much stronger candidate in their respective pools than at Smith. The same is probably true for Oxy (meirt aid disguised as finaid). This is not at all an uncommon scenarion - - a student is far more likely to receive merit $ offers from schools where s/he presents scores/grades w/i the top 20% for that school, as opposed to being in the middle of the pack.</p>

<p>What leaps off the page, however, is the BMC award - - 26K compared to only an $8K grant from Smith! That's WAY more than th $3-5K difference I proffered in my earlier post.</p>

<p>I applaud the college's committment to economic diversity and it's willingness to consider indiv circumstances on appeal, as it did for pinkpanther. But I'm sorry your D was disappointed, since Smith was her first choice and I wish the college could be more generous w/ need based finaid to middle-income families. </p>

<p>Although Smith does offer merit $, that's for the stronger candidates. I'm talking about need-based grants for middle-income, middle-of-the-pack applicants. </p>

<p>The need-sensitive evaluation may affect only 5% of the finaid candidates, but for those in that 5% who are denied aid, the process must seem abominably unfair.</p>

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<p>I said she applied to schools below her statistically so that she could maximize her chances of attending a small LAC rather then one of our huge UCs. It worked out very well for her. She did receive merits and she will be attending a LAC instead of a UC. But, the LAC she will be attending doesn't even GIVE merit aid. LOL </p>

<p>Smith is forming a class the way they want to form it. They want to be generous to pell grant recipients. That is totally obvious by their pell grant numbers being double any other school! Many will agree that's the group a school should help. After all, my D had other options and maybe a pell recipient wouldn't have had those options. Other schools aren't so generous to the lowest incomes. </p>

<p>Something has to give somewhere else when you are generous like that, though, as money is a finite thing. We are in the upper middle income range. BMC extends need aid to upper middles and gives NO merit aid. It's pell grant recipients are half that of Smith and in line with all the other LACs. They are not need blind in admissions, they admit it (that's how they all stay at about 58% aid), but they do meet 100% of need of their admitted applicants, which they truly appear to do. I think that may be where the difference lies. It isn't a bad choice on Smith's part, either, but they will lose upper middles in the process. </p>

<p>You can't base anything on one persons experience. Perhaps it was a lackluster interview or a so-so supplemental or too many students with the same Demographics or that B Sophomore year or maybe even that parent essay! ;) You just can't tell, but it is a fact that Smith lost a number of students from our area due to the financial aid offered.</p>