Speaking of unrealistic goals ...

Parent Cafe
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<p>“Many older students are just taking courses for personal interest (e.g. learning a foreign language).”</p>

<p>Many older students are there because they NEED to be there. Thousands of former soldiers. The factory in town closed and people need to retrain. Mothers going back to school to become nurses. (In my town, men who worked in the lumber industry or the now-closed brewery going back to school to become nurses.) Folks with checkered pasts turning their lives around and going into automotive repair, and welding. Immigrants and refugees.</p>

<p>Frankly, I think the cc is doing just fine for those just out of high school, which is a minority of the population and getting smaller all the time. It’s there for them, and those who hope to pursue four-year degrees from there have the opportunity. But the “baby boom” is over. The community college is for the community - and increasingly, that’s not 18-year-olds.</p>

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<p>Mini – “Why would getting K-12 schools to work on this problem affect the performance of 29-year-olds?”</p>

<p>Because that 18 y.o. H.S. graduate is even more likely to need remedial classes when he/she in in community college at 29. And, by 29, the student doesn’t even have to have graduated from high school to enroll at a CC in many (most?) states. Our failure to adequately teach students how to read, write and do straightforward math is coming back to bite us. It is also costing these students (and the state) a lot of money.</p>

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<p>The mission of the community college is changing (disclaimer- I teach at one). In the current economic climate, I don’t think the taxpayer is willing to ( or should) pay for certain types of students: the ones who already have degrees and just want to take classes for fun, the four-peaters (repeating the same class four times), those who cannot benefit from education (there is one student I still see around who was in my first class that I taught there- 20 years ago!) More and more accountability is expected, and students are going to have to show that they are there for a reason: to graduate or to transfer. The days of taking seniors taking ceramics or piano five times are over. They will have to take non-credit classes (if colleges will still offer non-credit) and pay accordingly. Regarding remediation, more than 70% of the students at my college test into remedial courses in math and English. I am talking paragraph writing and pre-algebra (middle school stuff). A lot of them are first-generation college students, and they just are not prepared for college, even basic, basic community college.
Mind you, for those who are prepared, community college is a great bargain and an excellent transition into the 4-year university, especially for those students who can’t afford to go away to college, or whose parents won’t let them (there are a lot).
There are already three “tracks” at most ccs: the “honors”/transfer track (now offering T-AAs, which are transfer AA degrees in certain majors); the basic skills courses, and the vocational programs (nursing, cosmetology, auto tech, etc). pretty soon I imagine if students are not in one of the three tracks, they will not be allowed to take classes, just as I couldn’t wander over to the local public university and take a class or two.
We are working really, really hard to be relevant and accountable as our funding is slashed year after year. And yet we are expected to do so much with such needy students. It would be nice if they all came out of high school prepared for college. But they don’t, for various reasons. I look at a lot of them and realize how hard life is going to be for them.</p>

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<p>I can see charging “fun” courses on an abililty to pay schedule and the CC being able to generate some funds that way. Our CC does this–offers gourmet cooking demo courses with famed chefs–one night @ $100/person or something. They also offer other courses like grantwriting, certification in non-profits, and other things they feel the community is interested in.</p>

<p>Having the same kid keep taking the same courses and failing them for 20 years sounds like an unbelievable waste of time and effort for everyone.</p>

<p>I admire CCs for doing so much for so many in our community while their resources and budgets are tightened more and more all the time. I will always be grateful to them for helping our D believe in herself again & helping her get her dream to come true.</p>

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<p>I do feel comm colleges should serve their populaces. In different communities, that means different things. When I lived in CA, that meant language and integration classes for recent immigrants. In some areas, it means retraining for laid-off workers. They can serve, very well, the motivated older students. And more. And, for many cc’s, the sort of classes HImom mentions can be a “profit center,” a way to utilize space and make money by offering continuing ed or some certification programs. </p>

<p>As for the kids who aren’t ready for college, don’t have the skills but enter a degree program (other than cert programs or vocational) - isn’t part of the problem that kids are steered toward a college degree as some magic to lift their life positions? As though just making it through, eeking out x credits, would magically guarantee them a better position in life? I’m not sure the bulk of these, if they do finish the degree, have bettered their job readiness; can they write, analyze, critique, project manage, etc? I admire poetgrl’s work. I think it holds value on its own. But, in so many cases, instead of a degree track, wouldn’t vocational training, trade or tech school, or an apprenticeship (white collar or blue collar) offer better actual job possibilities? </p>

<p>But, I feel the same way about 4th and 5th tier schools as well. The ones folks go into deep debt to afford. Then what? Sorry to sound cranky. But this under-preparedness is a broad and aching issue in my state.</p>

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Would you discourage them from entering degree programs?</p>

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<p>Why aren’t you allowed to take classes at the public U?</p>

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<p>First, why do you imagine that someone, because they are the product of a crummy K-12 education and need a couple of months tutoring to learn to write an essay ANYONE would enjoy reading and grade highly should give up and just do nothing about it? Just, oh well, got a bad break, born in the wrong part of the county, didn’t really learn much. Guess I should go to school to learn to drive a semi truck. </p>

<p>No.</p>

<p>There’s nothing wrong with learning to drive a truck, obviously, but there are many very bright students who are not getting a great K-12 education. Does that mean they aren’t intelligent enough to do college level work? No. It means they got a crummy education.</p>

<p>We have ways to deal with this.</p>

<p>I was sitting here wondering, too, Sylvan, why Shorty wouldn’t be allowed to take a class at the local state U. I wouldn’t have any problem, at all.</p>

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<p>There are certain courses at some colleges, whether they be CCs or Universiites of any sort, that are open only for students who are admitted in a degree program. To narrow things further, even those so admitted cannot take any course. Certain courses are open only to those in certain programs. Exceptions go through a vetting process and are made only on a space available basis. </p>

<p>Some schools have more courses open to more people, including the general public, than others. I live near a great public university that makes a concerted effort to have a lot of offerings to the general public and has a lot of academic courses available for anyone. But certain courses, such as the pre med core are open only to what is called “matriculated students”, I believe unless you go through an approval proces. </p>

<p>Many schools like to keep their core students in their own track of courses so that non traditional students are not peppered in the mix. Getting permission to take one of those classes could be difficult if it is an oversubscribed course even for kids in a program. </p>

<p>The point that mini is making is an excellent one and relevant. The purpose of a community college is to serve the community and furthering a traditional college education is just one of the things that it does in its mission. The one nearest to my MIL has far more offering in non degree programs than it does such courses. Seniors learning to use a keyboard or even a cell phone take instruction. SAT Prep courses are offered. DriversEd and re-ed courses are there. Baby sitting certificates, first aid courses, ESL, and just fun “courses” are all offering. And so it should be.</p>

<p>But with this infra structure already in place, it is the easiest way to offer college for those who cannot afford to go away to school. It’s there already, has some courses available already. What I 'd like to see is a structure set up so that it is also a fine alternative to going away to State U. Those who cannot afford to do so, can get the first two years of college there and be with prepared students, good instructors and get the same materials covered as one would at the 4 year school to which transfer is going to be attempted. </p>

<p>Right now, the feeling about many CCs, sadly justified, is that they are the place where the losers go, and the quality is truly not there and getting courses needed for serious study is a nightmare. A friend of mine who had girls going to her local cc, was furious at the lack of organization, lack of available courses and total lack of caring. Both of her girls, now have Bachelors and certification in health care fields with the bulk of their education, really more than 2 years, done at their CC, and both are earning excellent salaries, are self sufficient with high skill jobs, making more than most of their liberal arts major peers. But the cc was terrible in the way it was set up. My friend made a lot of waves and some changes were done, but sadly most were just accommodations for her girls done to shut her up since she was on a rampage.</p>

<p>The California model for universities has a lot for others to admire, particularly in its intent. I love that there are CCs that have offerings that rival the top state Us and, in fact, a stated goal is to facilitate transfer into those school, sometimes offering guaranteed admissions. Nothing to be ashamed of to be taking courses at some of those CCs. However, they have been having some highly publicized problems in that they are out of room and courses and money. I don’t know enough about how CA specifically runs its state uni system to come up with more than the most general statements, one of which is that the monies being used there for kids to have a sleep away experience should be used instead, for more kids to be able to get those two first years of college, or more locally. GIve the money to Santa Moncia CC so that it can offer those courses that kids want and need to get their first two years of college done locally–maybe even more than 2, maybe less, but provide that need on a quality basis instead of giving grants so that the kid in Southern CA can go up to Berkeley freshman year on the tax payers’ dime to have that full experience. That same amount could fund several kids locally. They would not have to resort to having two cost structures giving those with money a distinct advantage in getting required courses, a proposition I find repugnantly unfair, just as I do with giving room and board money to kids when local options exist for far less.</p>

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<p>Many of the “fun” or enrichment classes are be offered through extentsion courses–they are held at the CC, generally at night or on the weekend. They do not count towards a degree, although occassionally they may count towards a certificate. This allows the community to take a class or two, without impacting students seeking a degree/transfer, etc.
I do feel that CC’s serve many purposes: transfer, voc education, remedial education, and lifelong learning. The problem I have with the current system is all those options are supported, endlessly, by the taxpayer. Thanks, but no thanks. I have no issue with the first three–although I think remedial education should be intense and have a limit–it shouldn’t be that hard to work out a one-year schedule that could be translated into a part-time program. I do not want to fund someone’s lifelong learning “fun” class. That should either be pay the FULL cost (ie current tuition + whatever the taxpayers support per unit) or an extension course.
Few parents want to support endless class taking, with no degree/certificate/vocation in sight. Why should the taxpayers?</p>

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<p>Sylvan, yes, I’d discourage them from starting a college level education before they were prepared for college level work. I said I admire poetgrl’s work with students needing some support- but why does this come after they are enrolled in a degree program? I hope it’s not coming at the same time the student is enrolled in English 101 or History 101. As I also said, there are some real issues with this in my area. It also affects our flagship. </p>

<p>Iow: instead of letting anyone into a degree program and then elevating prepared kids to honors, why not offer a remedial pre-college?<br>
Not as strenuous as a post-bacc to prepare for med school, but the same concept. No one says, start med school and then get help with organic.</p>

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<p>Mission Statement of the California Community Colleges: “Primary missions of the Colleges are to offer academic and vocational education at the lower division level for both recent high school graduates and those returning to school. Another primary mission is to advance California’s economic growth and global competitiveness through education, training, and services that contribute to continuous workforce improvement. Essential and important functions of the colleges include: basic skills instruction, providing English as a second language, adult noncredit instruction, and providing support services that help students to succeed [this one is in danger of being cut out]. Fee-based Community Service education is designated as an authorized function. To the extent funding is provided the Colleges may conduct institutional research concerning student learning and retention as is needed to facilitate their educational missions.”</p>

<p>The focus is clearly on academic and vocational instruction, with the provision for fee-based “community service” education (enrichment classes). </p>

<p>As far as not being able to take classes at my local university, what I meant was I can’t just pop over to UCLA and take a credit class like a matriculated student could. I can go to UCLA Extension, of course, and pay by the unit for non-credit courses. With the current budget cuts (which are in the millions for each campus) I can see the community colleges going in the same direction. Only matriculated students will be able to take classes, and people who just want a Spanish or piano class will have to take it through non-credit (and pay accordingly). Just where I see things heading. Actually, we are almost there now, where only continuing students with priority enrollment can get the classes they need.</p>

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<p>Lookingforward:</p>

<p>I see you as having a challenging time understanding the paradigm of the CC, to some extent. It’s not a University. </p>

<p>As to this situation effecting the flagship? I would suggest that drinking and cutting class probably effects the flagship more than community college students who have recieved some tutoring in writing, in conjuntion with their comp 101 class. IME, and from the feedback I have recieved, some of those I tutor end up to be much better writers than those who need no tutoring during comp class.</p>

<p>This is a feature of the poor nature of some K-12 situations more than from some shortcoming on the part of the student.</p>

<p>As for the taxpayer issue, I would recommend people look into how much of the community college in their area is actually still supported by the taxpayer. You’d be surprised by how little of it is taxpayer funded…</p>

<p>At least around here, there are an army of us highly educated volunteers in there working as tutors. All of us, from attorneys to physicists, are simply putting our actions behind our belief in the fact that everyone deserves an opportunity, an honest opportunity, at an education. I’m not unique in this. There are many of us. Come on in and help out!</p>

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<p>why do you imagine that someone, because they are the product of a crummy K-12 education…should give up and just do nothing about it?<br>
Never said it, never thought it. Promise. They should get the help before starting a degree program. Of course, ideally, the high schools wouldn’t leave these kids in this mess in the first place. But they do. Sorry, but I am so into opportunity and so admire real bootstrappers that I can’t believe I have to defend. This isn’t about denying opps to kids because they are in crummy circumstances. It is literally about getting them ready for a degree program before starting that program. </p>

<p>Or, finding the best post-secondary avenues- not knee jerk saying it’s got to be college. Also not saying it never should be college.</p>

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<p>I’m really unclear on what you are trying to say?</p>

<p>what do you believe IS the best opportunity? Do you believe first gen college students from impoverished backgrounds have parents out there to “find them the best opportunity?”</p>

<p>These programs are in place, right now, already, in the community colleges.</p>

<p>Come on in and help out.</p>

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<p>Poetgrl, I answered your question.
In #28, you asked, why do you imagine that someone, because they are the product of a crummy K-12 education…should give up and just do nothing about it?</p>

<p>I don’t think they should give up and do nothing. I am advocating a remedial program. You say, well it exists. I say, it should be separate from a degree track. Classes, courses, practice, tutoring, whatever. </p>

<p>Now, I don’t understand why you keep coming back to poor kids.</p>

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But aren’t you assuming that the student needs “help” across the board? A lot of students need remedial math but are fine with english/writing skills. Why hold someone back for a year in order to remediate 2 math classes? Can’t they take their remedial math and regular english, psychology, history, and biology 101 at the same time?</p>

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<p>I’m with lookingforward. I am not convinced that community college, and its cost structure, is the right venue for remedial education, when a full-time year of K-12 education is less costly for a much larger number of hours of instruction. A 2010 study indicates that the median national cost to the institutions of a year of community college is $9,291 per student. Night school (or day school, which is being done in quite a few cities) for adult learners offered through the K-12 system would be substantially less costly, could bring more support into place for those with learning disabilities or major structural gaps (particularly in reading and math), and would put the onus back on to the K-12 system where it belongs. It might also gives students an incentive to push harder so as to avoid the need for this kind of remedial education at all.</p>

<p>Quite a few urban school districts have offered services under this model, typically at very low cost to the student, or even free. Students with significant reading deficiencies might be better served in a library-based adult literacy program.</p>

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lol, I work as an adjunct. Nearly “volunteer”.</p>

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<p>I’d love it if you could link that study. Or cite it, anyway. </p>

<p>Full time remediation is ridiculous. The gaps just aren’t across the board. The kid might not have learned to write well, but judging from the writing centers offered, now, at ALL universities, this is probably not even particularly unique to CC. The same kid is great at math. The remediation necssary for a paralegal program requires little in the way of math. etc… Moreover, these are adults, and they ALL have jobs. They don’t go to school 8-3. </p>

<p>There are basic ACT score requirements to be admitted without remedial classes, but the classes are there and, once passed, the student moves onto the next thing. A kid who is good at math should not have to wait until their English remediation is over to move on.</p>

<p>It’s not a university. Some adults are there for a professional certification. Some are there for the articulation agreements. The CC where I am tutoring is extremely successful with transfering to four years and also with finding employment for it’s AA’s and AS’s. It’s an entirely different situation, AND there are kids there who will go on to a four year university.</p>

<p>There are agreements in place and a student can go on to complete their four year degree in a hybrid low res learning program in various majors with four year institutions, and not 3rd tier institutions, either. It is a partnership situation, and it is the best use of my tax dollars I have seen in a long time.</p>