Sports + Academics

College Search & Selection
181

<p>"All 53 schools for which football SAT scores were available had at least an 88-point gap between team members’ average score and the average for the student body.</p>

<p>• Schools with the highest admissions standards, such as Georgia Tech; the University of Virginia; the University of California, Berkeley; UCLA; and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, had the biggest gaps between the SAT averages for athletes and the overall student body.</p>

<p>• Football players performed 115 points worse on the SAT than male athletes in other sports.</p>

<p>• The differences between athletes’ and non-athletes’ SAT scores was less than half as big for women (73 points) as for men (170).</p>

<p>• Many schools routinely used a special admissions process to admit athletes who did not meet the normal entrance requirements. More than half of scholarship athletes at the University of Georgia, Clemson University, UCLA, Rutgers University, Texas A&M University and Louisiana State University were special admits.</p>

<p>“If the university says they’d help us meet team needs, that’s as important as finding an oboist for the orchestra,” said Nancy McDuff, the University of Georgia’s associate vice president for admissions and enrollment management."</p>

182

<p>Tslaw,
Sorry if my posts came across as elitist. No slight intended to U Florida or others. We're probably of the same mind on the attractiveness and benefits of colleges that can offer great academics and great athletics. </p>

<p>If you’ve followed my comments here and elsewhere, you have seen that I have been tracking the athletic life (particularly football and basketball) at the USNWR Top 30 National Universities and making comparisons for that universe of colleges. Nothing magical about 30 (it could have been 20, it could have been 40 or more), but there is a limit to the amount of data collection that I wanted to do on a weekly basis. As I noted to another poster who complained that I was not including Boston College, please feel free to add to my group of schools and make your arguments on U Florida or any other college that you think offers a great combination of great academics and great athletic life. </p>

<p>For top colleges generally, including within the USWNR Top 30 colleges, the matter of athletic life is a potentially key differentiator of what an undergraduate student will have as part of their college experience. For example, consider what a student will see at a place like Dartmouth and a school of similar selectivity like Rice. Rice just played in and won a bowl game and its baseball team is a fixture in the Top 20 in the USA. Not all students will necessarily care about this, but some will and I think it is hard to deny that such experiences are anything but additive to the undergraduate (and alumni) experiences of Rice students.</p>

<p>Or consider a place like U Penn or Cornell and Vanderbilt. U Penn and Cornell fancy themselves as pretty sporting places. Cornell won mens and womens Ivy League basketball last year and U Penn has won numerous Ivy League basketball titles which place it into the NCAA’s March Madness. But when you actually contrast the intensity, breadth and national relevance of their athletic life with what Vanderbilt provides, it’s not close. Vandy is far superior (unless you are a hockey fan and then Cornell is the clear winner). IMO, the quality of the social scene that surrounds the Vanderbilt football program is more appealing by a long shot than almost anything that can be found north of the Mason Dixon line. Granted, Vanderbilt’s football history ain’t great, but they’re certainly competitive now and their basketball (men AND women) are nationally prominent and their baseball is similarly excellent. </p>

<p>Finally, contrast someplace like Yale or Princeton with Stanford and Duke. The athletic life is a prominent part of the undergraduate experience for many Stanford and Duke students. Neither school is particularly successful at football, but in virtually every other sport, they have teams that are nationally competitive and both Stanford and Duke consistently place well in the annual Directors Cup standings. </p>

<p>I would also add that this can also be a powerful argument in favor of major publics, including the obvious national leaders like U Virginia and UC Berkeley and extending thru colleges like Penn State, U Texas and U Florida. Top students can have an exceptional undergraduate academic experience at these colleges and their social and athletic life is on a scale that is far more active than anything found in the Ivy League. </p>

<p>Choosing a great academic institution is important, but it is also important to consider how a student will spend his/her non-classroom hours and what is the social quotient of the college that they will be attending. The balance of great academics and great athletics is one of the elements that can differentiate privates like Notre Dame, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Stanford, Duke, etc and publics like U Virginia, UC Berkeley, UCLA, U North Carolina, etc.</p>

183

<p>
[quote]
Now, if one is to chose among these three schools based on a blend of overall athletics and academics, the ranking would have to be UF=UT>UNC.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I can't say that I agree. As one of the nation's flagship "public ivys", a degree from UNC-Chapel Hill generally would command more respect than one from Florida or Texas (although still great schools), based on the prestige attached to the UNC name alone. </p>

<p>Traditionally Florida and Texas have had a better balance of athletic success (particularly between Football and Basketball), but UNC is well on its way to becoming the winningest basketball program of all time and the football program is making great strides as well. Every game was sold out this year, and the general atmosphere on football gameday has improved drastically. Still not the same football experience as at Florida or Texas, but UNC is getting better in that regard.</p>

184

<p>


</p>

<p>I also need to disagree. UNC is a great university and indeed more selective than UT at the undergrad level. However, UT still has many more highly ranked academic departments - across more disciplines - than UNC. UT has a stronger, more accomplished faculty overall vs. UNC. On a side note, to equate Michigan with USC is also a poor comparison. Undergrad selectivity has little direct correlation to academic strength when it comes to public research universities.</p>

<p>And when it comes to "public ivys", UT was included with UNC by the author who actually coined that phrase.</p>

185

<p>
[quote]
I also need to disagree. UNC is a great university and indeed more selective than UT at the undergrad level. However, UT still has many more highly ranked academic departments - across more disciplines - than UNC. UT has a stronger, more accomplished faculty overall vs. UNC. On a side note, to equate Michigan with USC is also a poor comparison. Undergrad selectivity has little direct correlation to academic strength when it comes to public research universities.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Undergraduate selectivity is important in a school's strength; a more selective school will generally have a more talented student body.</p>

<p>I'm basing my statement on the USNWR rankings, which as we all know have their problems but are the most well-known college ranking system in use today. Also, if you took a random sampling of people in the United States outside of Texas and North Carolina and asked them which school they thought of as more prestigious academically, I'm almost certain UNC-Chapel Hill would come out on top. Public perception is very important in all of this as well. No denying that both are great schools though.</p>

186

<p>Florida, Texas and UNC are all listed as the top "PUBLIC Ivy's". UNC does happen to be the top of the three per US NEWS with Florida and Texas tied. I do agree that UNC has a SLIGHT brand equity advantage, but it isn't that great. I do agree that admissions standards have a lot to do with educational experience and i feel that in the interest of political correctness, USNEWS undervalues SAT scores in their ranking. However, UNC, Texas and Florida are all in or within striking distance of top 10 (public). </p>

<p>In fact, the average IQ as measured by SAT scores of EACH school's entering freshman class, 2007 is at or near Mensa qualifying 132+, or greater than 98% of the population. </p>

<p>UNC SAT= 1305, IQ ~138
Florida SAT =1260, IQ~133 (Florida saw a 20 point bump for 2008 freshman)
Texas SAT= 1240, IQ~129</p>

<p>Braingle:</a> Convert SAT and GRE Test Scores to IQ</p>

<p>Public</a> Ivy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>

<p>The Public Ivies according to Greene's Guides</p>

<p>A later book titled The Public Ivies: America's Flagship Public Universities (2001) by Howard and Matthew Greene of Greene's Guides expanded upon the first list (italicized below) to include 30 colleges and universities.[8]
[edit] Eastern</p>

<pre><code>* College of William & Mary (Williamsburg, Virginia)
* Pennsylvania State University (State College)
* Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey (New Brunswick, New Jersey)
* State University of New York at Binghamton
* University of Connecticut
* University of Delaware (Newark)
* University of Maryland (College Park)
* University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
* University of Virginia (Charlottesville)
</code></pre>

<p>[edit] Western</p>

<pre><code>* University of Arizona (Tucson)
* University of California (6 of 10 campuses):
o Berkeley, Davis, Irvine, Los Angeles, San Diego, and Santa Barbara
* University of Colorado at Boulder
* University of Washington (Seattle)
</code></pre>

<p>[edit] Great Lakes & Midwest</p>

<pre><code>* Indiana University (Bloomington)
* Miami University (Oxford, Ohio)
* Michigan State University (East Lansing)
* Ohio State University (Columbus)
* University of Illinois (Urbana-Champaign)
* University of Iowa (Iowa City)
* University of Michigan (Ann Arbor)
* University of Minnesota (Minneapolis-St. Paul)
* University of Wisconsin (Madison)
</code></pre>

<p>[edit] Southern</p>

<pre><code>* University of Florida (Gainesville)
* University of Georgia (Athens)
* University of Texas at Austin
</code></pre>

187

<p>Bowl Update!!!</p>

<p>The last two colleges among the USNWR Top 30 that played in college football bowl games have now completed their seasons. In both cases, the news is excellent!</p>

<p>Vanderbilt defeated Boston College in the Music City Bowl before a national TV audience and a crowd of 55,000+. It was undoubtedly a festive occasion for Commodore students, alumni and fans as they had not been to a bowl game for 25 years and had not won one in over 50 years. Pigs have been sighted flying over West End Avenue.</p>

<p>In the granddaddy of bowls, the Rose Bowl, USC trounced another Big Ten team, this time Penn State being the victim. Trojan fans have now seen three straight Rose Bowl victories and their team and supporters are making the case that USC is the best football team in the land. While this debate is unlikely to be solved, it is undeniable that the Rose Bowl is the premier setting for a college bowl game with the weather, the surroundings, the parade, the wonderful tailgates, and all of the pageantry. IMO, that is what college football is all about and, if you've never seen a big-time college game first-hand, I want to encourage you to go to a game at one of these colleges that can offer this experience. It's a lot of fun and, among the highest ranked colleges in the USA, can only be found on a handful of campuses.</p>

188

<p>^ The pre-game at the Sugar Bowl looked like a high school conference championship compared to the Rose Bowl.</p>

189

<p>No wa USC should e considered #1 by anyone short of a USC fan. They should not have taken their foot off of Penn State's throat and should have beat them by 30 points if they wanted serious consideration. Utah has a better case.</p>

190

<p>Agreed with tomslawsky. As usual the Rose Bowl is a home game for USC. They lost to an average team on the road. Unfortunately in the world of college football, one loss to a mediocre team usually means you can forget about a national championship. Utah is the team that was really screwed. That's what happens when you play in relatively weak conference with the BCS setup.</p>

191

<p>The big difference in Academic Standards between the Ivies and Schools like Duke and Stanford is the way average Scores are used. In NCAA Div 1 the team as a whole has to achieve whatever the minimum score is (usually the average for the school). So High Score Benchwarmers can be recruited (swimmies) to bring up the average for the team. The ivies use the academic index ( a combination of grades, sat I and satII). Not only must the entire team equal the AI of the school as a whole but each student must fall within a narrow standard deviation of the average for the school. That way the team can not compensate for a "star" with poor scores by bringing in a "swimmy" with high scores. This leaves the composition of Ivy Teams much different than Top academic Div 1 Schools.</p>

<p>This was apparent in last years March Madness game between Stanford and Cornell billed in the National Press as the "SAT Playoff". The outcome on the floor is well known, but several news services carried stories about how the Stanford Basketball players self admitted that they were "not at the same level academically" as the Cornell players. In fact, Stanford stars were noted to be obsessed with "the little mermaid" and other Disney Cartoons .</p>

192

<p>Sherman,
I think you underrate the quality of the student athletes at premier non-Ivy academic institutions (Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame) by trying to lump them in with the remainder of the Division I scholarship-awarding colleges. These schools all practice great restraint in limiting the universe of athletes that they draw from. Furthermore, these colleges all sport excellent graduation numbers for their student-athletes across all sports, including the majors of football, basketball, baseball. </p>

<p>As for the Ivies, I think you overrate just what it takes to reach the required Ivy Academic Index. At the 171 level, a student can score 540 across the board in all SAT categories and post a 3.0 GPA and he/she is in the Ivy League. Not exactly the most exacting of standards, huh? </p>

<p>Re the overall athletic life and how it affects the college community, it depends on how you look at it. The lower quality of play in the Ivy League and sports like fencing, squash, and archery make student participation a more realistic goal than at nationally competitive colleges like Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame. However, I am certain that nearly all observers would agree that the student/alumni spectator environments at Stanford, Duke et al are considerably stronger than at any of the Ivy colleges. And for major sports like football and basketball, it is not close. </p>

<p>One comparison you have not mentioned is the quality of the athletics in the Ivy League and what Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame regularly face in their conferences. It’s rarely close in sports where both sets of schools field teams and certainly not in major college sports like football, basketball (men’s and women’s) and baseball.</p>

193

<p>I think shermanbus83 makes a great point. Some people just can't accept the truth.</p>