Sports + Academics

College Search & Selection
121

<p>
[quote]
By the mid to late 1970s, 3-4 Big Ten teams would go to a bowl game each year. However, that was irrelevant to Northwestern, who suffered through 23 consectutive losing seasons during that era.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yep - '72 was the beginning of the "dark ages" when NU's administration starved the athletic dept. (President Strauss wanted to leave Div-I football).</p>

<p>As for this whole athletics "debate" - methinks that Hawk and Pizza are talking past each other a little bit.</p>

<p>I'd say that the majority of students at Northwestern, Stanford, Duke, etc. don't really follow FB/BB and just go to games for the social aspect (tailgating, bonding, etc.) - which is what one can also get at the Ivies.</p>

<p>(In fact, this probably entails for students at the state schools as well since only about 20% of the US pop. is really into sports).</p>

<p>However, for the more sports-crazy students, the "big-conference" schools do bring a certain aspect that the Ivies don't.</p>

<p>For me, there was probably no bigger thrill than watching NU beat UM in a 54-51 shootout in 2000 (still, the greatest college FB game I had ever seen/experienced) - that's a sports memory I cherish more so than any of the pro teams I follow.</p>

<p>I'm sure Stanford students, even if they aren't necessarily the biggest sports fans, cherished beating USC last season.</p>

<p>The Ivies also miss out on the excitement of ESPN College Football Gameday coming to campus.</p>

<p>But having said that - for many, these types of experiences aren't that impt.</p>

<p>It really depends on the person.</p>

122

<p>
[quote]
I'd say that the majority of students at Northwestern, Stanford, Duke, etc. don't really follow FB/BB and just go to games for the social aspect (tailgating, bonding, etc.) - which is what one can also get at the Ivies.</p>

<p>(In fact, this probably entails for students at the state schools as well since only about 20% of the US pop. is really into sports).</p>

<p>However, for the more sports-crazy students, the "big-conference" schools do bring a certain aspect that the Ivies don't.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And there you have it! Nice post, k&s. </p>

<p>Hawkette, what makes you think that the sports-crazy students don't already take this into consideration when looking at colleges? Like I said, it's already public info -- no one applies to Harvard expecting 70,000-packed-stadium blowouts. Anyone applying to NU and Ivies knows that NU is a Big 10 school (whether that's important or not, they know it). </p>

<p>And what makes you think that the sports-neutral students (who are attending games because it's something to do with friends, social, bonding) would <em>inherently</em> have a better time at the Stanford/Duke/et al games than at the Ivy games, when the bonding and good times can equally be had whether you're with 5,000 people or 50,000?</p>

<p>Those are the two differences / questions it boils down to, IMO. I do enjoy debating with you!</p>

123

<p>Pizzagirl,</p>

<p>I think the premise of Hawkette's argument, which you have yet to adequately respond to, is that school spirit/fun times/bonding that occurs as a result of a strong athletic culture would benefit EACH AND EVERY SINGLE STUDENT. I bet even the University of Chicago kids would be more happier if they had better athletic teams and more student enthusiasm for sporting events as a result. Just because students who go to UChicago and the Ivies give in to the status quo and focus on other things besides sporting events, that doesn't mean a strong athletic culture wouldn't have increased the quality of their college experience.</p>

<p>Comparing a Duke basketball game, a Florida football game or a Michigan State ice hockey game to any Ivy League sporting event shows a lack of understanding of sports on your part. There's just no comparison. First of all, more students in these schools are passionate about their teams than the Ivy League masses who might not even know the rules of the games. But if they did and they had strong sports teams, I bet they would enjoy it.</p>

124

<p>
[quote]
I bet even the University of Chicago kids would be more happier if they had better athletic teams and more student enthusiasm for sporting events as a result.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That might be true in some U of C students' cases, but it definitely isn't in mine.</p>

<p>Put it this way: no school is perfect, and every school is a compromise on some quality or another. Hawkette presents a list of schools that are great all-around schools that top sports, academics, and social life. But for lots of students, there are other factors that are equally important, if not more important: intellectual culture, access to a major city, residential house systems, even job-market prestige, to name a few.</p>

<p>Presumably every current U of C student had the opportunity, once upon a time, to attend a school with more sports enthusiasm. It isn't hard to find a school with more sports enthusiasm than ours, and many of the sports giants are similarly selective or less selective than the U of C. But the U of C kid didn't choose that school. Maybe they ARE big sports fans, but the U of C's other qualities redeemed itself in the college matriculant's eyes for not having the best sports ever.</p>

<p>If I were at the University of Michigan, you could make the argument that I'd catch the tailwind of Wolverine spirit, even from that gorgeous library they have. But I just can't imagine sports as ever being significant or meaningful to me, and I'd probably wonder briefly why everybody was so excited before returning to my studies and my art-house ilk.</p>

<p>Perhaps a student who's not on my extreme has to carefully consider sports programs as part of the college experience, in which case sports should level off with every other criteria that goes into making a good college fit. It's an important factor for many, absolutely, but probably not the defining one. I'm sympathetic to the argument that Ivies don't offer the same kind of excitement that other colleges might, but I would also make the argument that they potentially offer other things that make them appealing to attend.</p>

125

<p>
[quote]
I think the premise of Hawkette's argument, which you have yet to adequately respond to, is that school spirit/fun times/bonding that occurs as a result of a strong athletic culture would benefit EACH AND EVERY SINGLE STUDENT.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I disagree with that fundamental premise. It's like you folks who really love sports can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that other people are neutral / indifferent towards them, and that your rah-rah-rah'ing isn't infectious fun that sweeps us along in the merrymaking too. I get that you're having fun, I get that it's really important to you, but I don't get how that benefits me, if I have just a passing friendly interest in what's going on on the field. It's like the people who get all crazy over who wins the Super Bowl or the World Series or whatever. Great! Glad you're having fun! But I'll just smile politely at you. </p>

<p>from unalove:
[quote]
If I were at the University of Michigan, you could make the argument that I'd catch the tailwind of Wolverine spirit, even from that gorgeous library they have. But I just can't imagine sports as ever being significant or meaningful to me, and I'd probably wonder briefly why everybody was so excited before returning to my studies and my art-house ilk.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes. Which doesn't mean that you might not enjoy a game with your friends as something to do on a nice fall day! But that doesn't mean it's "sad" if you never get to experience it.</p>

126

<p>
[quote]
I bet even the University of Chicago kids would be more happier if they had better athletic teams and more student enthusiasm for sporting events as a result. Just because students who go to UChicago and the Ivies give in to the status quo and focus on other things besides sporting events, that doesn't mean a strong athletic culture wouldn't have increased the quality of their college experience.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Is there any reason to believe that UChicago and Ivy students rate their own college experiences lower than Stanford/Duke/Vandy/etc. students rate theirs? This seems to be an ingoing assumption of Hawkette's. In the absence of data, I have no reason to believe that their ratings of their own experiences are all fairly similar, but perhaps there is data I'm unaware of which suggests that the S/D/V/etc have higher ratings.</p>

127

<p>Break up the Wildcats! Northwestern won again and now is ranked among the nation’s very best colleges as well as among the best 25 college football teams. I’m hoping that k&s, sam lee, and/or pizzagirl will provide an on-the-spot report of the tailgate, stadium, and overall scene from the Homecoming victory over Purdue and whether there is Northwestern-to-the-Rose Bowl speculation in the cocktail chatter!</p>

<p>Here are the full attendance figures and results from games this weekend involving the USNWR Top 30:</p>

<pre><code>10/18 , BOWL DIVISION

</code></pre>

<p>With 64,883 in attendance STANFORD lost to @ UCLA by 20-23
With 32,011 in attendance DUKE lost to Miami by 31-49
With 27,163 in attendance NORTHWESTERN defeated Purdue by 48-26
With 11,117 in attendance RICE defeated Southern Miss by 45-40
With 92,746 in attendance VANDERBILT lost to @ U Georgia by 14-24
NOTRE DAME , No game<br>
With 48,372 in attendance UC BERKELEY lost to @ U Arizona by 27-42
With 52,342 in attendance U VIRGINIA defeated U North Carolina by 16-13
With 64,883 in attendance UCLA defeated Stanford by 23-20
With 110,107 in attendance U MICHIGAN lost to @ Penn State by 17-46
With 25,118 in attendance USC defeated @ Wash State by 69-0
With 46,257 in attendance WAKE FOREST lost to @ U Maryland by 0-26
With 52,342 in attendance U NORTH CAROLINA lost to @ U Virginia by 13-16</p>

<pre><code>10/18 , CHAMPIONSHIP SUB-DIVISION & DIVISION III

</code></pre>

<p>With 11,242 in attendance HARVARD defeated Lehigh by 27-24
With 11,814 in attendance PRINCETON lost to Brown by 10-31
With 6,873 in attendance YALE lost to @ Fordham by 10-12
With 750 in attendance MIT defeated Western New England by 48-15
With 6,821 in attendance U PENN defeated Columbia by 15-10
With 6,821 in attendance COLUMBIA lost to @ U Penn by 10-15
With 1,355 in attendance U CHICAGO defeated Macalester by 24-6
With 7,518 in attendance DARTMOUTH lost to Holy Cross by 26-44
With 3,450 in attendance WASH U lost to @ Wooster by 13-38
With 8,542 in attendance CORNELL lost to Colgate by 22-38
With 2,755 in attendance JOHNS HOPKINS defeated @ Ursinus by 14-0
With 11,814 in attendance BROWN defeated @ Princeton by 31-10
CARNEGIE MELLON , No game<br>
With 1,975 in attendance GEORGETOWN lost to Bucknell by 24-27
With 3,500 in attendance TUFTS defeated Williams by 17-7</p>

<pre><code> NO TEAM 

    CALTECH             
    EMORY

</code></pre>

128

<p>And here are the latest Sagarin computer rankings coming from USA Today:</p>

<p>19-Oct </p>

<p>2 USC
21 NORTHWESTERN
27 UC BERKELEY
29 U NORTH CAROLINA
34 VANDERBILT
38 WAKE FOREST
41 DUKE
43 U VIRGINIA
44 NOTRE DAME
51 STANFORD
74 RICE
79 UCLA
88 U MICHIGAN
129 HARVARD
161 BROWN
169 YALE
173 U PENN
175 CORNELL
191 PRINCETON
217 COLUMBIA
222 DARTMOUTH
227 GEORGETOWN</p>

129

<p>We never heard back from NU fans about their successful Homecoming game vs Purdue. But I found this article about some clever Northwestern folks turning the average fan's and their passion for tailgating into a business for themselves. Good stuff and good luck!!</p>

<p>College</a> tailgating in style :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Colleges</p>

130

<p>Wow..cool stuff! </p>

<p>Imagimotive</a> - Magnolia, TX</p>

<p>Go 'Cats!</p>

131

<p>

Your argument doesn't really address my point. All I'm saying is if all things are left equal, but the University of Chicago developed a strong sports environment, then the students overall would be happier. For what its worth, I think that Stanford, Duke, Vanderbilt and Rice are perfect schools. All of these schools have all of those "extra" factors that you mentioned going for them as well. They're like UChicago...but with a lot more student spirit and a stronger social atmosphere.</p>

<p>

Forget the actual sporting event for a minute. Do you enjoy parties? Do you like to see fellow students wearing school apparel? Do you enjoy alcohol? Do you enjoy socializing? Do you enjoy the national media discussing your school/hearing about your alma mater in a positive light?</p>

<p>These are just some of the many things a strong athletic culture at a school offers its student body and alumni base, beyond the actual excitement of a sporting event by itself. There are usually tailgates beforehand that feature a lot of booze and people. There are parties later on campus celebrating a team's success that are fun to attend. Students are usually every excited and have their school colors on. The school is featured more prominently in the media as well and thus increases the school's visibility. Having a strong athletic culture thus benefits EVERYONE.</p>

<p>Finally as a Northwestern alum, what sort of connection do you have to the school after graduating? Are you going to think back fondly on and go back to visit the libraries where you spent long nights studying for econ tests and writing philosophy papers? Most likely not. You're going to remember the fun time you had tailgating, going to parties, being involved with extracurriculars and attending sporting events.</p>

132

<p>It's hard to generalize the hypothetical though. Maybe pizzagirl didn't really go tailgating and she doesn't think her Northwestern experience was inferior than that of her football-loving peers. I think that's the point she's making. That said, my experience has been better off with football. Now that I think about it, maybe I'd been worse off actually by watching too much EPSN on Saturday. :)</p>

133

<p>Good week for the Patriot League versus the Ivy League last week: Holy Cross, Fordham, and Colgate posted victories and Lehigh just narrowly lost to Harvard.</p>

<p>With 11,242 in attendance HARVARD defeated Lehigh by 27-24
With 6,873 in attendance YALE lost to @ Fordham by 10-12
With 7,518 in attendance DARTMOUTH lost to Holy Cross by 26-44
With 8,542 in attendance CORNELL lost to Colgate by 22-38</p>

134

<p>
[quote]
All I'm saying is if all things are left equal, but the University of Chicago developed a strong sports environment, then the students overall would be happier.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Sure, I wouldn't mind a more exciting sports team (I'm not going to say I hate sports, I'm just wildly indifferent) but real life doesn't work that way.</p>

<p>Say a University has X amount of dollars in a discretionary bonus fund to spend on whatever they like. They can either a) bring the school an NFL-quality football team, b) give better financial aid packages to the entire student body, c) lure top-notch professors and research to the school or d) purchase a giant chocolate fountain that runs 24/7 in the middle of the quads and is replenished hourly. You get the point.... universities are pulled in lots of directions to fund lots of programs, and for the U of C, sports doesn't rank as high as other pressing concerns.</p>

<p>
[quote]
They're like UChicago...but with a lot more student spirit and a stronger social atmosphere.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think that things like "student spirit" and "strong social atmosphere" are in the eyes of the beholder....put it this way, I didn't choose Chicago because I thought it had a weak student spirit and weak social atmosphere. I thought it more readily offered what was right for me, a lot moreso than most of the other colleges I was considering. (I think Chicago was the only school that entered the final round for me that had varsity sports, even).</p>

<p>
[quote]
Do you enjoy parties? Do you like to see fellow students wearing school apparel? Do you enjoy alcohol? Do you enjoy socializing? Do you enjoy the national media discussing your school/hearing about your alma mater in a positive light?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Chicago has all these elements, the only potential difference is that the national media attention is going to be on the Nobel Prize winner, not the fact that the football team managed to beat Oberlin at our homecoming game.</p>

<p>Again, I'm sensitive to students who argue that sports are important to student life, as I have members of my family who would argue just that, but I would also argue that it's not necessary to a "good" or "happy" college life and that the "good" college life can be found anywhere, particularly when personal preferences come into play.</p>

135

<p>
[quote]
Forget the actual sporting event for a minute. Do you enjoy parties? Do you like to see fellow students wearing school apparel? Do you enjoy alcohol? Do you enjoy socializing? Do you enjoy the national media discussing your school/hearing about your alma mater in a positive light?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I felt there was plenty of school spirit even though at the time the football team was bad. People loved the beautiful setting of the campus, the many activities it had to offer, the chance to be with other smart students ... lots of things to love, even if the football team wasn't great. Lots of school apparel around, lots of purple and white stuff. Didn't need a football game to break out the NU sweatshirts.</p>

<p>I'm not a drinker myself, but I have no philosophic objection to it. I went to plenty of Greek-related parties, sorority formals, etc. and have very fond memories of these. I don't know why you'd assume that tailgates / football games would necessarily be more fun than those. I think it's odd that there's an assumption that more people = a more fun time. By that metric, I should have wanted to go to Ohio State or Arizona State. </p>

<p>As for the national media, it's neat to see Northwestern on the news in some capacity but it's just not all that important to me in terms of memories of my own experience.</p>

<p>
[quote]
These are just some of the many things a strong athletic culture at a school offers its student body and alumni base, beyond the actual excitement of a sporting event by itself. There are usually tailgates beforehand that feature a lot of booze and people. There are parties later on campus celebrating a team's success that are fun to attend. Students are usually every excited and have their school colors on. The school is featured more prominently in the media as well and thus increases the school's visibility. Having a strong athletic culture thus benefits EVERYONE. Finally as a Northwestern alum, what sort of connection do you have to the school after graduating? Are you going to think back fondly on and go back to visit the libraries where you spent long nights studying for econ tests and writing philosophy papers? Most likely not. You're going to remember the fun time you had tailgating, going to parties, being involved with extracurriculars and attending sporting events.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Are you kidding? When I go back to campus with my family, I most certainly do walk around the academic areas ... around Harris, Kresge, University Hall, around the Rock, and into the libraries, esp Deering ... I have fond memories of being a young adult in those areas. As well as the beautiful lakefront. And then the student center, where I participated in a particular extracurricular, and then the sorority and fraternity quads, where I lived and went to parties in that order :-). Why do sports have to be the things that *I remember / value, just because *you do? Your tastes aren't everybody's. Which is the whole premise of this thread.</p>

136

<p>
[quote]
There are usually tailgates beforehand that feature a lot of booze and people. There are parties later on campus celebrating a team's success that are fun to attend. Students are usually every excited and have their school colors on.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Explain to me as someone who doesn't care about the action on the field and who attended football games / tailgates merely to have an activity to do and visit / hang out with friends ... why I wouldn't have been just as happy with doing that at the Harvard/Yale game (if I had so attended either school) than at the NU/Wisconsin game. Yes, I recognize the scenes are *different. I'm asking you to tell me why I would inherently enjoy the NU/Wisc one *more if I don't care about the national relevance of the game.</p>

137

<p>Unalove,
You’re right about choices that a college has to make on how to allocate their resources. As I’ve stated a million times, the sports scene is not for everyone and, like you, I doubt that one who has this as an avid interest, would be excited by the athletic life at U Chicago. But that certainly does not mean that a student can’t have a great undergraduate experience at U Chicago. It just won’t have much of that sports scene flavor which I’m sure is just fine with the vast majority of students who find their way to U Chicago. That’s what college search & selection is all about and not every school should try to be like all others. Vive les differences!</p>

<p>Now, as for that comment about the chocolate fountain that runs 24/7, can you tell me where I can find one of those? :)</p>

<p>P’girl,
The positive arguments for athletic life are not meant as either/or vs other activities such as Greek life, but rather as additive experiences that further differentiate the college experience at ABC College vs that at XYZ College. You may not care and your disinterest (antipathy?) in the sports scene is well documented. I don’t think that those of who extol the benefits are so dim that we can’t understand that this won’t have universal appeal. But it constantly feels like you’re trying to rain on the parade of folks who actually enjoy a bigger athletic scene or who might enjoy it if given the opportunity to experience it first-hand.</p>

138

<p>Does anyone know if Dartmouth has a good/lively sporting spirit? I haven't heard anything about them and I'd like to find out more. Chicago, too? Thanks loads!</p>

139

<p>Dartmouth really gets riled up about football. See these articles:</p>

<p>Dartmouth</a> apologizes for football brawl with Holy Cross - USATODAY.com
ESPN</a> - Police, colleges probe Dartmouth-Holy Cross fight - College Football
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/21/sports/ncaafootball/21ivy.html?_r=1&oref=slogin%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/21/sports/ncaafootball/21ivy.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

140

<p>Yeah, never underestimate the sports scene at a smaller school. I've been around Big Ten sports in all their fervor, but the time I nearly feared for my life? It was at a Lehigh-Lafayette game.</p>