<p>un,</p>
<p>Really good point, thanks! I don't want my son to be so focused on making mom happy, that he doesn't pick the best school for him -- and then sell the school on why they're his first (not safety) choice. Thanks again!!</p>
<p>for the class of 2009, brown admitted 15% of its applicants - do you really think those odds make it anyone's safety?</p>
<p>Un,
Sorry, I'm new to this, and still not quite getting it, I guess. That's why I'm glad I'm here and that people are willing to educate me. We have good connections with Brown, so I thought for us it wouldn't be that hard. But don't give up on those of us who sound stupid -- we're new to this and just thinking out loud. I do appreciate the reality checks!!</p>
<p>Reading that thread about Andi's son, I noticed her son was applying for financial aid. Would that have made a difference, because we don't intend to?</p>
<p>glad to hear your listening!!! :)</p>
<p>i have seen many parents who assume that the tale of the exceptional kid who didn't get in to the ivy of his dream is the exception - and can't possible happen to their kid. unfortunately, as the number of applicants to the top schools rise, and the credentials of the applicant pool rises as well, this story is becoming more and more common and not at all the exception.</p>
<p>good luck to you and your son!!</p>
<p>In my opinion, any serious college visit strategy should include a large public universities, mid-size private universities, and small undergrad colleges. To not offer a student an opportunity to explore these three sizes of schools is a disservice.</p>
<p>You have the large public covered with UCLA. You have mid-size privates covered with many of the schools in the Ivy League athletic conference. It would be short-sighted to not take advantage of the opportunity to visit several top undergrad colleges, especially since interaction with professors and small class sizes mentioned as a criteria.</p>
<p>This is especially true with the stated goal of becoming a PhD in Classics, since the small undergrad colleges are huge per capita producers of PhDs and college professors.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the NSF database does not isolate Classics as a subfield. However, their "Other Humanities" subfield is comprised almost exclusively of Classics and Philosophy PhDs. Here are the top colleges and universities in terms of PhD production in those fields per 1000 graduates over the most recent 10 year period:</p>
<p>PhDs per 1000 grads </p>
<p>Academic field: Other humanities </p>
<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database<br>
Number of Undergraduates: ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database<br>
Formula: Total PhDs divided by Total Grads, multiplied by 1000 </p>
<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period </p>
<p>1 St John's College (both campus) 18.3
2 Reed College 9.2
3 Swarthmore College 6.0
4 Carleton College 5.5
5 Haverford College 5.4
6 Hampshire College 5.1
7 Williams College 4.9
8 Bryn Mawr College 4.9
9 Yale University 4.6
10 Amherst College 4.5
11 Vassar College 4.4
12 Pomona College 4.2
13 Wesleyan University 4.1
14 Princeton University 3.9
15 University of Chicago 3.7
16 University of Dallas 3.4
17 Oberlin College 3.3
18 Wellesley College 3.3
19 Harvard University 3.2
20 Whitman College 3.1
21 Rice University 3.1
22 Bennington College 3.0
23 Wheaton College (Wheaton, IL) 3.0
24 Bowdoin College 2.9
25 Antioch University, All Campuses 2.8
26 Columbia International University 2.8
27 University of the South 2.7
28 Principia College 2.6
29 Stanford University 2.6</p>
<p>As you can see, several of the Ivy League athletic schools (Yale, Princeton, Harvard) are very strong in producing future PhD/professors in Classics and Philosophy. I suspect that Columbia is too, although it does not make this list. However, I think you can also see the strength many of the top liberal arts colleges have in these fields as well.</p>
<p>You can visit one of these schools (Pomona), less than an hour drive from UCLA. If you plan to visit either Princeton or UPenn, you will be less than an hour from two more (Swarthmore and Haverford). UPenn is 20 minutes on the same commuter rail line from Swarthmore, with stations located right on both campuses. </p>
<p>Almost any itinerary that took you to Harvard, Yale, Brown, or Dartmouth would put you within one hour of Amherst and Wesleyan, perhaps Williams, and perhaps Vassar (if driving from Boston to NYC). Any of these LACs would be strong candidates for an undergrad Classics major and strong stepping stones to the absolute top PhD programs.</p>
<p>something else to just bear in mind whenever you look at a school's admission rate - remember legacies and recruited athletes will have admission rates higher than the school's average -- which means the admission rate for those who aren't in those categories will be even lower.</p>
<p>Although we all know this is not strictly true, most of the Ivies claim to be "need blind". Of course, this is not quite true in the instance of ED, since most ED applicants aren't dependent on financial aid. That said, most of these schools would deny that it had anything to do with their decision regarding your child.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There are like 10 Ivies, no? They're not all that competitive, so I'd imagine one would qualify as a safety. Brown, Cornell, Columbia, they're all Ivies, and not as competitive as HYP. Plus, he's considering U of Chi and Michigan...
[/quote]
There are 8 Ivy League schools. I have listed them, along with Chicago and Michigan, with their admissions statistics from the most recently available Common Data Set for each school. (Go to any school's website and search for "common data set" -- the information is often quite helpful in learning what the school values in an applicant and what some of the admissions statistics look like. Some schools do not make this available, including some of the Ivys, but I did find similar web pages and linked them below.).</p>
<p>Brown:</a> 16,911 applied, 2,557 admitted: 15.1%
Columbia</a> (College only, not incl. Engineering): 15,792 applied, 1,689 admitted: 10.7%
Columbia</a> (combined College + Engineering): 18,125 applied, 2,312 admitted: 12.8%
Cornell: 20,822 applied, 6,130 admitted: 29.4%
Dartmouth: 11,734 applied, 2,173 admitted: 18.5%
Harvard:</a> 22,796 applied, 2,074 admitted: 9.1%
U</a> Penn: 18,824 applied, 3,916 admitted: 20.8%
Princeton: 13,695 applied, 1,733 admitted: 12.7%
Yale:</a> 19,682 applied, 1,958 admitted: 9.9%</p>
<p>U Chicago: 9,039 applied, 3,642 admitted: 40.3%
U Michigan: 21,293 applied, 13,304 admitted: 62.5%</p>
<p>Of the Ivys, Cornell with 29% admitted <em>might</em> be considered "less competitive", but 7 of every 10 people who applied were rejected. Those are not the kinds of odds your student wants to be on the far end of. Anyway, I just thought this might help...</p>
<p>Of the Ivys, Cornell with 29% admitted <em>might</em> be considered "less competitive", but 7 of every 10 people who applied were rejected. </p>
<p>When you consider that students who are rejected from Ivies are pretty indistinquisable from those who are accepted- Ivies are not a safety or even a good bet for ANYONE
Find what he wants ina school- urban/classics/ medium sized? whatever = go ahead and consider ivy schools- then turn to other schools that may be even better fit
For every Ivy there are several schools that are similar in feel and student body and more reasonable in acceptance terms
you might want to check out this thread
<a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?70/92993%5B/url%5D">http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?70/92993</a></p>
<p>Emerald has it right: don't look at the acceptance rates, look at the rejection rates. When you start thinking "91% of applicants to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton get REJECTED" you have the right perspective on things. Otherwise, it's too easy to think "Well, of course my terrific kid is going to be one of the 9%" The problem is, there are THOUSANDS of terrific kids around the world. He may be the greatest thing in his school, in your town, in your state, but that's no guarantee of anything.</p>
<p>My personal belief is that it is EASY to fall in love with one of "name brand" schools...much harder to fall in love with a school you (or your parents) haven't yet heard of but which might offer an absolutely astounding education. It is difficult to fall in love with Swarthmore or Williams if you're already in love with Harvard and Princeton. That's why I'd recommend NOT focusing on the Ivy's too much in this visit - this visit should be about casting a wide net, looking at a wide variety of types of schools, and figuring out which type of classics department and school best fits your son.</p>
<p>BurnThis, Like you I frequently have to thank my stars that S does not read this Board ;).</p>
<p>I am so glad you are here, as with your son's credentials - and what you will learn here - he should have a wonderful outcome. But there are some land mines and pitfalls to avoid and I am reaching out right now to GRAB you and pull you back from one:
[quote]
I do intend to have him apply to Tufts (for their fantastic Classics program) and some LACs..... to cover our behinds.
[/quote]
Forgive me if what I am about to say is old news to you, but there is a famous (or is it infamous) syndrome called The Tufts Syndrome. With this syndrome, droves of extremely qualified applicants who exceed the typical credentials of Tufts applicants are rejected from Tufts (and other similarly high caliber schools). Why? Because these schools want a high "yield" from the students they offer admittance to (ie, they want a lot of these students to matriculate at Tufts). If Tufts et al suspect you are using them as a Safety, you will get rejected for precisely that reason. Tufts does NOT want to be the safety for the Ivies. If your son has Tufts in mind and comes East and does NOT visit Tufts, he is putting himself squarely among those who have failed to "demonstrate interest" in the school and greatly enhancing the chances he will be rejected by his safety.</p>
<p>The very most important thing your son can do in his junior year is explore a variety of schools as to size, location, atmosphere and degree of selectivity. A range in degree of selectivity is crucial and you need not assume that he - or you - will always like the most selective the best. Once he finds schools, in a range of selectivity, which he's interested in, he needs to focus on maximizing his chances of acceptance. At some schools, that will simply mean crafting the best possible application package to showcase his outstanding credentials. At others, it will be convincing them that he will seriously consider their offer of admission, should it be forthcoming - this starts with spending some time contacting and visiting those schools.</p>
<p>Important threads to read: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=96791%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=96791</a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=47867%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=47867</a>
I think unbelievablem may have already posted the first link</p>
<p>Interesteddad,</p>
<p>Thanks for the list, very helpful! I think they will add some LACs from that list and maybe pass on some Ivies (like Columbia which, being in NYC, is not really of interest to my son). </p>
<p>Actually, now that I've read all the remaining posts, I'm starting to change my thinking. Maybe he should only visit the "other" schools. He has friends at HYP, so he can ask them what they're like (about ten percent of last year's graduating class got into HYPS). Maybe he should visit the Swarthmore/Williams type schools this Spring and if he happens to get into an Ivy, then go fly back and check it out for himself. Hmmm.</p>
<p>BurnThis
I'm impressed. You are a fast learner. so glad you came to CC</p>
<p>I notice that all of the schools you mention are large. Has your son visited smaller schools, like Pomona? </p>
<p>You also seem to suffer from ivy-league blinders. There are many schools on both coasts (and even a few in the middle) that may better meet your son's needs. I have no objection to the ivy league (my father and sisters went to Harvard), but it does have a certain axe to grind, and you should at least be aware of that. If your son is planning to stay in California, east coast schools will not give him much of an edge, if any. </p>
<p>Before we did the big east coast trip with my daughter, she had already checked out about ten west coast colleges with a wide range of philosophies and campus sizes. She'd decided she didn't want a big school, and wanted a smaller liberal arts college. </p>
<p>It will simplify your trip enormously if you know what you're looking for. I recommend, since you're in LA, that your son visit the five colleges (Pomona, etc.) to see if he likes the style of any of them, UCLA to see if he really likes it (since it sounds like his safety), Stanford to see if he like the ivy league style, and Berkeley to see another UC school. If you just want to look at Ivies, start in Manchester, NH and start with Dartmouth, then you can see Harvard and Tufts in one day (and Boston/Cambridge for the other day of two in Boston, because Boston/Cambridge are wonderful) (or maybe MIT). From Boston, head to Cornell, then Yale, then Columbia, then Princeton, then Penn and fly out of Phila. </p>
<p>However, if your son likes smaller schools (which you'll know if Pomona appealed to him), you could check out Williams, then Amherst, then perhaps some NY schools (Vassar, Bard, etc.), and then Swarthmore and Haverford.</p>
<p>And if your son is serious about classics, he would do well to consider Reed (if he likes small schools).</p>
<p>The link to Andi's discussion was very informative. We all know of these stories, we had one like that at our school last year. The kid was perfect, but didn't get into Yale. Meanwhile, 63 of the 270 graduates last year did get into an Ivy, another 11 got into Stanford, another 11 into Michigan, 9 into Berkeley, I could go on but it's making me nervous -- you see the problem -- so there's intense pressure to get into a "top" school. For whatever reason, the school doesn't push the Liberal Arts colleges (looking at the matriculation list I see Amherst, Wesleyan and Haverford, but that only accounts for a handful of kids). That's why I think it's up to me to let him know about these other schools because otherwise his counselor will just push an Ivy to keep our school's average/reputation up (because you don't have to report if your students were rejected by a school -- only where they got in!).</p>
<p>dmd77's advice is wise and a plan many of us followed - look at "types" of schools fairly locally, so as not to waste precious time visiting a "type" which will be ruled out in a heartbeat. My one caution would be the translation of Pomona to the smaller East Coast LACs. dmd77 - is this a relatively equal translation? I never visited Pomona, but did visit Harvey Mudd and "drove by" the other Claremonts. While the size/philosophy may be similar, the "feel" is quite different. That's the thing about California - it kind of lacks a "representative" of the LACs you find in other regions. (I think).</p>
<p>Although somewhat smaller and with a bit different focus, I consider Santa Clara U akin to some of the east coast LACs we visited.</p>
<p>burnthis-
and also remember - this isn't just a matter of making sure your son applies to schools where his chance of getting admitted may be greater -- it is also a matter of making sure your son finds the schools where he will be happy - fit is SO important.
everyone knows the big names -- its easy to focus on them when that's where the other bright kids you know are applying -- but that doesn't mean they are the best for your child's interests and needs.</p>
<p>If your S is interested in a particular school, it may behoove him to try to sit in on a class in a subject that he likes or meet with a professor in that field. D did that for a couple of schools that were at the top of her list when she did her junior spring college tour, and it helped give her a much better feel for the potential fit. It also helps to have a set of questions to answer (on paper) after every visit to keep everything straight.</p>