St. Olaf or Grinnell?

College Search & Selection
1

<p>My D loves the feeling of St Olaf-- a caring and very genuine feeling among students and faculty, a good selection of St Olaf's own study abroad programs, many intramurals sports opportunities, and music opportunities for non-majors, freshman conversation programs, great food, and a gorgeous campus and close knit community. She chose St Olaf over Whitman and Occidental. As a west coaster, she was also looking for a school with a geographically-diverse and a very open minded and adventure seeking student body. While she likes St. Olaf in almost all respects, she is still a little concerned that it may be more of a Minnesota school than a national one, and a little more mainstream americana than quirky. She is not really quirky but enjoys being around kids that think outside the box, are funny, and a are very tolerant and interested in many types of kids from many backgrounds and places. We sense that St. olaf is trying to be that school, but might not be there just yet.</p>

<p>She was just offered a spot off the waitlist for Grinnell, and having committed to St Olaf, liking the faculty she met and the people she has gotten to know in the admissions, it is very hard for her to consider a new course-- BUT she loved the students at Grinnell when she visited and is seriously considering a shift. </p>

<p>Would love to hear from anybody that might weigh in with their experience of either or both of these schools-- know they are both great-- just tring to ensure the best for the long term-- so much has gone into this college decision making and I thought we were done!</p>

2

<p>Disclaimer: I’m a Grinnell student. I tried not to be biased, but I’m sure there’s still some bias in there.</p>

<p>First off, the obvious allure is the prestige. Some people will lecture you about how prestige doesn’t matter, but that hasn’t convinced anyone in the past. Yes, Grinnell is more prestigious. It’s your choice whether that sways you.</p>

<p>Another thing I’m sure you’re aware of is that St Olaf is religiously affiliated. This makes its student population very different from Grinnell’s. Grinnell’s student base is more liberal and less religious.</p>

<p>Basically, Grinnell is all about freedom and responsibility, whereas St Olaf is a more traditional LAC. At Grinnell, for better or worse, there’s only one required course for graduation. Other than that, you just need a major and a sufficient number of credits. St. Olaf has more traditional general education requirements. Grinnell also stands out in its philosophy of self-governance. There’s much less policing of the students than at a normal college, since they believe that the students are adults and can handle their problems.</p>

<p>If you want quirky, Grinnell is quirky. That’s not always a good thing, though. If you find you don’t like it, there’s pretty much nowhere you can go to get away from it, since Grinnell is a “bubble”.</p>

<p>If you have any questions about Grinnell, you can send me a PM. I’m somewhat acquainted with St Olaf, since it was one of the colleges I considered when I applied to schools last year, but I’m a student at Grinnell, so I would definitely be more helpful in that regard.</p>

3

<p>You should try posting this question in the St. Olaf and Grinnell sub-forums. That will probably get you the most responses.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, search both forums for threads with titles containing the name of the other school (e.g. search the Grinnell forum for thread titles containing the word “Olaf.”)</p>

<p>And congratulations to your daughter!</p>

4

<p>My S goes to Grinnell, and i feel that your descriptions are spot on. (in reference only to Grinnell; we didn’t look at St. Olaf’s.)</p>

<p>In addition to a greater geographic diversity, Grinnell is 60% Caucasian students; St. Olaf is 80%. Don’t know if that matters or not. </p>

<p>I don’t know much about specific opportunities at Grinnell for music, but I am pretty sure they are abundant, and that music is really valued on the campus, whether it’s opportunities for performing, lessons made available, performers brought on campus. </p>

<p>here’s some recordings by Grinnellians:
[Grinnell</a> College - Student Musicians by Grinnell Sounds & Beyond on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free](<a href=“http://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/grinnellsounds/sets/grinnell-college-musicians/]Grinnell”>SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds)</p>

<p>I am sure that she would have a wonderful experience and education at either; just hope that once she decides, she commits fully to whichever one she chooses without looking back.</p>

5

<p>Both my parents went to Olaf, and I live near Minneapolis so I have visited many many times. I will say that the students tend to be conservative, homogenous (yet attractive, both genders), and Christian. I think Olaf is a regional school with strong regional ties, but not necessarily not national. I have been out on the east coast, the west coast, and Texas, and have gotten comments on my Olaf shirt. “Oh I went there!” My mom also was placed in a very high paying career, but retired when she married my dad, who was in a much higher paying one. So it is possible to make bank from Olaf. They also love the crap out of their alma mater. Plus Iowa? Really? Um yah yah! Oh but grinell gives you the wonderful opportunity to be a fox squirrel!!</p>

6

<p>It may also be worth noting that Grinnell has an enormous endowment, so physical plant, student-faculty ratios, special programs, etc., should never be in any danger.</p>

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<p>This is “Why Grinnell” (and yes, we’re biased - S is a Grinnell grad.)</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/grinnell-college/438138-why-grinnell.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/grinnell-college/438138-why-grinnell.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>We didn’t consider St. Olafs - a bit too conservative and religious for our tastes, but fit is personal. Grinnell also had more of a national reputation (it’s well known among grad schools and produces a relatively high number of PhDs). S isn’t from the midwest (in fact, only half the school is) so that mattered. Grinnell is bit more academically demanding: S worked hard - but he also knew many of his profs personally. S also liked that he could walk from campus to downtown because they are adjacent. Not sure where Olaf is relative to Northfield and how easy it is to walk to town.</p>

<p>K’s one required class is a freshman tutorial, by the way, and its on one of two dozen topics that your D would choose from. Whatever topic your D picks, that prof will be her freshman advisor until she chooses her major and faculty advisor. It’s a way to ensure that her advisor gets to know her well personally and academically in the first semester. Since there are no distribution requirements, this personal connection is very helpful: It enables the prof to provide better guidance than a random advisor who doesn’t know your daughter at all.</p>

<p>What is D planning to study?</p>

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<p>@SDonCC, I obviously can’t say how the music opportunities compare between the different colleges, but since dogsledder said he/she was looking for “music opportunities for non-majors”, I can definitely confirm that those are available in abundance at Grinnell. Any student can take lessons in any instrument, regardless of skill level. Lessons are worth 1 credit per semester, and the only grading is based on attendance; if you go to your lessons, you get an A. There are also tons of other music opportunities, since there are plenty of official and unofficial music groups on campus, e.g. the Grinnell Singers and YGB.</p>

<p>So yes, if OP’s D is interested in music, Grinnell will definitely be able to accomodate her.</p>

9

<p>Thanks to you all for your replies. One other question I had – in reading about the self governance, the lack of distribution requirements, etc., I wondered if kids at Grinnell have to be very self -directed to do well there. While my D has alot of interests, she is totally undecided about a major. I think she is the kind of kid that would really benefit from good, solid advising from an interested faculty member. How good is the advising for kids that really are not at all sure about what they want yet?</p>

10

<p>I am also interested int his thread. My S is very similar to the OP’s D… into vocal music and theater… but also wants to major in physics. He is a very creative out of the box type kid, who is happier with the quirky kids, but really gets along with a wide variety. From what I have read about St O it sounds perfect in a lot of ways, but i worry about the religious leanings. Truthfully, I think he is going to LOVE Oberlin, but don’t know if he can get in. I think he would like Grinnell too, especially the open curriculum.</p>

11

<p>dogsledder, there are plenty of students who really don’t know what they want to major in, and truly explore the liberal arts. Every freshman is required to take a tutorial first semester and that professor is their adviser, until the major is declared at the end of sophomore year, when the adviser switches to the major. Using the tutorial professor is good because that professor gets to see them in a classroom so theoretically should get a sense of them and how they work. </p>

<p>I thought my son’s advisor did an excellent job of steering my son towards some courses that would help him get the introductory / prerequisites done, even though he wasn’t sure what he was going to major in and was interested in a wide variety of things.</p>

<p>The professors are very open and get to know the kids, and the students can seek out advice from other professors, not just their advisor. I know last summer my son did something that was suggested to him by a professor that knew of his interests, and not because that professor was an adviser.</p>

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<p>Disclaimer: I don’t know a lot about St. Olaf, other than what I’ve read here and from talking to one friend whose son will be a junior there next year and whose daughter just chose it over a top-10 university. But FWIW:</p>

<p>St. Olaf is associated with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). Don’t let that “evangelical” throw you - it’s very different from the “evangelical” nondenominational and Baptist congregations. The ELCA-affiliated colleges with which I am familiar and that still emphasize their ties to the church (not all do) are open and welcoming schools at which nobody tries to sell or push religion on anyone, and where people of all faiths (and without faiths) are welcome. What they do emphasize in the religious sphere is a life of Christian service - or as St. Olaf’s website ([About</a> St. Olaf College | Northfield, Minnesota, USA](<a href=“About St. Olaf – St. Olaf College”>About St. Olaf – St. Olaf College)) puts it, “The college encourages and challenges its students to be seekers of truth, to lead lives of unselfish service to others, and to be responsible and knowledgeable citizens of the world.”</p>

<p>That said, there is an atmosphere about some of these colleges that a student with a very strong anti-Christian viewpoint might find uncomfortable. They are going to encounter a student body where many profess their faith openly, and where extreme anti-Christian statements might not be welcomed. So while nobody is going to try to convert them, neither are many likely to find them congenial companions if they carry their opposition to an obnoxious extreme.</p>

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<p>thanks much!</p>

14

<p>I’ve known quite a few kids who have gone to both schools. The reviews are pretty uniformly positive for both. A few thoughts about each.</p>

<p>As annasdad correctly notes, St. Olaf is affiliated with the ELCA, which is a mainstream (i.e., liberal) Protestant denomination. Just as a marker for where the ELCA stands, it recently began ordaining openly gay and lesbian ministers, and here in Minnesota the state ELCA recently came out in opposition to a proposed state constitutional ban on same-sex marriage. Not to say all ELCA members are liberal; there’s a range of views within the church, but these are not Bible-thumping conservative Christians. We have some friends who teach at another ELCA-affiliated college and they are among the most progressive people we know, and while not everyone at the school shares their views, they are well respected and comfortable there, and their views are just part of the mix…</p>

<p>The other key thing to know about St. Olaf is that it’s identified with the Norwegian-American wing of the ELCA (as opposed to Swedish-American or German-American) and with Norwegian-Americans more generally. The area was settled by Norwegians, and the college was founded by Norwegians. So while some people attend for the religious affiliation, many others attend for the ethnic identification—or simply because it’s a family tradition. Others attend simply because it’s a good school pretty much all around, but especially noted for math and vocal music. Figures I’ve seen say it’s about 50-50 in-state and out-of-state, but it’s a good bet many of the out-of-state students are from nearby states like Wisconsin, Iowa, or the Dakotas, though it does draw nationally. It also has a fierce rivalry with Carleton, an elite LAC located in the same small town. My sense is the Carleton students tend to feel superior to the Oles and the Oles tend to think the Carleton students are arrogant, elitist snobs who deserve to be brought down a peg or two; it’s mostly all in good fun but the rivalry is real and it has been quite bitter on occasion. The town, Northfield, is a charming little place.</p>

<p>Grinnell is a terrific school with a very strong endowment that, if located on either coast rather than in the cornfields of Iowa, would probably be in the top 10 among LACs. A lot of Minnesota kids go there for sciences in particular, but it’s strong in lots of other areas as well. It does draw a more national student body than St. Olaf, but it really has to work at it, and a ton of Minnesota kids end up there, probably in greater numbers than Iowans—so there’s a bit of a regional flavor, too.</p>

<p>Just for pure academics, I’d place Grinnell ahead of St. Olaf. I wouldn’t worry about prestige; here in Minnesota and Iowa many people will have heard of both schools and think highly of both, but outside the region the numbers of people who have ever heard of either, much less have a well-formed opinion about them, will be vanishingly small. </p>

<p>For location I’d choose St. Olaf, for 3 reasons. First, the town seems a bit livelier. It’s a bit bigger (20,000 residents v. 9,000 for Grinnell, IA), and with 2 colleges in Northfield, there are twice as many students, twice as many academics, and just more going on. Second, Northfield is only about 40 minutes from the Twin Cities, and while weekend excursions into the Cities are not a routine occurrence, it does open up a lot of off-campus opportunities that Carleton and St. Olaf students do avail themselves of from time to time. Grinnell, in contrast, is more isolated. It’s about an hour from Des Moines . . . but then you’re in Des Moines, for gosh sakes. So at Grinnell, it’s pretty much campus life, and that’s it, though the Grinnellians I’ve known seem to be fine with that. Third, because of its proximity to the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport which as a Delta hub has good connections to everywhere including non-stops to pretty much every major city in the country, St. Olaf is much easier to get in and out of, e.g., on holiday breaks.</p>

<p>As for campus culture, I’d say Grinnell is definitely more liberal, but not because St. Olaf is conservative, but rather because St. Olaf is probably more mixed, with some pretty strongly Christian students, including some with fairly conservative social and political views, but others more moderate and others much more liberal, and quite a few non-Christians or non-believers as well.</p>

<p>Bottom line, I’m quite positive on both schools. My D1 was interested in neither, my D2 may apply to Grinnell but probably not as one of her very top choices but she thinks highly enough of it that she can easily see herself being happy and doing well there.</p>

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<p>@dogsledder,</p>

<p>Most of the students at Grinnell are incredibly self-motivated, but that doesn’t mean they all have their lives planned out ahead of time. Most people come in with an idea of what they want to major in and end up doing something completely different. This is why your advisor is so important, since he or she will be helping you figure out what courses you need to fulfill a major’s requirements, and perhaps more importantly what courses you need for intellectual development.</p>

<p>Thankfully, the advising is absolutely wonderful at Grinnell. The professors at Grinnell are pretty uniformly amazing, and advisors have all taught their advisees in class before. It’s much more personalized than the kind of advising you would receive from a guidance counselor in high school or at a larger university. The professors know their advisees much better, and they have much more time to devote to each student. Most senior faculty at Grinnell will have something like twenty advisees at a time, whereas a guidance counselor at a typical uni can be responsible for hundreds or thousands of students. It’s a completely different world.</p>

16

<p>The Grinnell Factbook has the breakdown of geographic distribution from 2006-2010, and the midwest (which encompasses 14 states according to the map) represented about 46%, with Illinois, Iowa and Minnesota in that order sending the most kids.</p>

<p>Since then, the the number of Californians has shot up dramatically (Dr. Kington talked about this at Family Weekend last year), and this year applications as a whole were up 50%, with increases spread out across the country.</p>

<p>In any case, if you look at the distribution for any LAC in the country, each school will draw most heavily on the students in its geographic area, but certain of these schools will have a greater national (and in some cases international) pull than others, and Grinnell is in this category.</p>

<p>In any case, just judging from my son, he has made friends from all over the country and the world. </p>

<p>As far as college towns go, Northfield was one of the favorite ones I visited. Grinnell has restaurants and a movie theater (although movies are shown all the time on campus, too) and is a closer walk to the campus, but it does have more of a lived-in, midwestern town feel than Northfield, which I thought felt more college funky. But, the students have their traditions and their favorite places to go, and I think really feel fondly about the town. </p>

<p>The college works hard at town-gown relations, and there is an incredible amount of neighborliness and helping hands that go on between the school and the town’s residents. My son also likes being in a small town, where people look him in the eye and say hello when he walks down the street. </p>

<p>I am pretty sure that Grinnell offers transportation to cities on the weekends, but yes, the Twin Cities would be more appealing than Des Moines and Iowa City. But, really, at either campus I wonder how often the kids go into these cities anyway? Most of these LACS, the life really revolves around the campus. </p>

<p>I have to add that the countryside surrounding Grinnell is astoundingly gorgeous. You don’t see this just from the campus; you do need to drive or get on a bike, but in just a few minutes you are in wide open, rolling farmland that is simply a sight to behold.</p>

17

<p>I agree with bclintonk that Grinnell is hard to get in and out of, and was the biggest drawback when my son was making his decision and remains a pain to us today. But, we deal with it…</p>

<p>I would say that the shuttle system timetable for vacations is probably the only real complaint I have about the school! There are taxi services available though (although more costly, but students can group together to share). </p>

<p>Enough kids have cars at school, so that kids can get rides either for other midwestern towns on vacations, or for getting off campus during the year. I know my son has done some day excursions with friends or borrowed a car if he really needs to get some stuff at a store that he can’t walk to / carry back.</p>

18

<p>One more thing I want to add: Campus diversity and access to education regardless of income is a huge priority for Grinnell, and one that has gained increasing focus under the leadership of the new president, Dr. Raynard Kington. </p>

<p>As a parent, I have been so impressed with the ability of this school to articulate its vision and to organize and apply its resources to accomplish it. It is a very self-aware school that is very open about its strategic goals and inviting the community (including students, faculty, townspeople and alumni) to join in shaping the future as well. (this is getting a bit off-topic, but I think it really does speak to the ethos of the place.)</p>

<p>Grinnell has a proud and beloved tradition of student self-governance and this sets the tone for the school as well. It is a system that is all about taking responsibility for yourself and for others and learning how to live and work together as part of a community.</p>

19

<p>“Can You Tell I Like Grinnell?” That should be the new t-shirt slogan for proud parents like me. :-)</p>

20

<p>I gotta disagree strongly with bclintock. St Olaf is a conservative school, there’s no way around that. The denomination may be liberal, but most students are not of that denomination, just Christian. I have countless friends from school and family members who have attended and they have told me they have gotten more conservative while there, which doesn’t usually happen in college, and saw some really liberal kids become moderate. My references are the fact that I go on campus probably 30 times a year and have a ton of connections I speak with all the time. Also, Carleton students are just plain hands down the ugliest people you will ever meet. You make think I have bias, but really this is me being honest. Ugly. And also I want to reiterate that students at Olaf are in fact CONSERVATIVE, no matter the technical denomination of the college.</p>