Stanford lost my respect

<p>MatrixDad, the fact is that nobody knows why the yield increased. Your explanations are certainly not impossible, but there are <em>many</em> other explanations that are more likely (e.g. keeping EA program). From that perspective, your original post was a bit presumptuous, unfounded, unscientific, and honestly very childish. Perhaps it wasn't intended that way.</p>

<p>At least for the past several decades (and potentially since it was founded), Stanford has always been <em>slightly</em> less numbers-focused than HY. They would claim that they're trying to select for intellectual "spark" or "creativity." I don't know whether this can be identified from an application form -- but from looking at how their graduates have literally changed the world through computers, information technology, etc (often before age 40), it could certainly be argued that they're doing a good job. But others would argue that this means "more qualified" applicants (whatever that means) are being rejected.</p>

<p>MatrixDad,</p>

<p>Stanford's SAT average had been lower than HY by about the same margin (40 on 1600 scale) for a long time, not just last year. This is why I said Stanford's admission has always been more random, even back in the days when Stanford's yield % was in the low 60s. I don't think Stanford has made any significant change in admission practice in recent years and I think its rise in yield reflects its rise in popularity. The following article written in 2000 may help:

[quote]

Is Stanford invading Harvard-Yale turf?
As Stanford steps up its focus on technology, two long-time rivals scramble to catch up.
By Andrew Heller</p>

<p>"Perhaps the first hints of an institutional rivalry with Stanford have emerged only because of boredom with Harvard's permanent status of victory over Yale University," the Harvard Crimson editorial read. Oddly, the antagonistic words appeared not in a pre-Game issue of Harvard's student newspaper, and not after the latest U.S. News & World Report rankings had been released. Instead, they were published in the Crimson's Commencement issue in early June—a time of reflection for thousands of Harvard graduates.</p>

<p>Was it possible, though, that after 117 years of tense football games and two centuries more of a storied Harvard-Yale rivalry, the Crimson viewed a school 3,000 miles away as Harvard's new rival, and vice-versa? According to Dana Mulhauser '01, editor-in-chief of the Stanford Daily, it's certainly possible. "We've always said here that Harvard is the `Stanford of the East,'" she said. "Even though Yale is up there in the pool, we still look at Harvard as our main rival on a national level."

Clearly, Stanford has made significant gains over the past 20 years in becoming a major competitor with Harvard—and, as many Administrators here have said—with Yale. As the Internet economy has charged ahead, Stanford is in the perfect location to enjoy the fruits of it, attracting more applicants and faculty to Silicon Valley. Students in Palo Alto certainly have grand notions of face-to-face competition with their Eastern counterparts, and it appears that, at least for Harvard and Yale, a new rivalry with Stanford may be more than just skin-deep.

**Ahead of the curve**

Perhaps the main reason Stanford has become such an important player in the competition between Harvard and Yale is, quite simply, its location. The university has capitalized on the biotech firms and Internet start-ups in Silicon Valley, forging a type of symbiosis with them. William Hewlett and David Packard, for example, got their start at Stanford, and just this year the university completed the $140 million Science and Engineering Quad (SEQ). Not coincidentally, one of the sleek new buildings on the SEQ—Stanford's equivalent of Science Hill—has Packard's name embossed over its entrance. Other recent graduates have gone on to found some of the country's most high-profile Internet firms, including Yahoo! and Excite.

Entrepreneurial graduates have always been a part of Stanford culture—that alone has never been a concern to other universities. What seems to have many colleges worried, however, is Stanford's relatively new Mayfield Program, a joint technology and entrepreneurship curriculum designed for seniors seeking a co-terminal B.S./M.S. degree. Mayfield students spend three quarters taking a specialized track of courses, in which they use case studies to learn about competitive analysis, strategy, financial analysis, and organizational structure. This series of classes is followed by summer internships with Internet start-ups in Silicon Valley, giving students a head start in obtaining post-graduation employment.

"As compared to other schools that don't have a program like [Mayfield], Stanford definitely gave me a leg up in getting a job," Steve Chou '99 said. "I interned with [tech firm] Excel during one summer and was paired up with a venture capitalist mentor. He had a whole portfolio of companies on his desk, so when I was looking through it, if I even saw a company I liked, he immediately forwarded an e-mail to the CEO and I would get a call within a week for an interview." Apparently, Chou was quite successful: he's currently employed as a hardware engineer at Tensilica, a microprocessor development firm in Santa Clara, Calif.

It is this close partnership with Silicon Valley entrepreneurs that makes Mayfield unique from similar programs at schools like UC-Berkeley and UC-Santa Barbara. "There are a lot of schools that have programs like Mayfield," Tina Seelig, co-director of the program, said. "Essentially, this is a work-study program on steroids. We've given each of these students three mentors—someone from the company they're working with, an alum of the program, and a venture capitalist. The model of work-study programs has been around for ages—we're just taking it to a different level."

**TECHnical marvels**

And lately, so is Harvard. Administrators in Cambridge recently announced the creation of the Technology and Entrepreneurship Center at Harvard (TECH), which aims "to educate technology leaders and innovators," according to its mission statement. "TECH is both a real and virtual space for students, faculty, alumni, and industry leaders to learn together, collaborate, and innovate." Indeed, it seems as though the establishment of TECH is part of a continuing trend of encouraging entrepreneurship in Cambridge; the Center was announced just three weeks after Dean of Harvard College Harry Lewis proposed relaxing a long-standing policy that prohibited students from running commercial businesses out of their dorm rooms. More important, however, is the question of whether these changes in Harvard's undergraduate regulations are in direct response to Stanford and the Mayfield program, and whether they constitute an effort to better compete with the California university.

To be fair, TECH is markedly different from Mayfield. As of right now, it only offers students a chance to listen to guest speakers from the biotech industry and the Internet world; there is no set curriculum and no internship outreach program. Paul Bottino, the Executive Director of TECH, denied that his program was modeled after Mayfield. "There are certainly some similar features," he said. "But we haven't really planned having the scores of interns or hardcore engineering courses they have." Seelig, the Mayfield director, also refused to explicitly state that TECH is an effort to "catch up" to Stanford. But, she said, "If we can come up with an innovative program, we're flattered that someone wants to try to do something similar. We measure our success by how many other people think it's a cool idea. We're not competing with Harvard or Yale, but we're thrilled when other people decide to create programs based on models we've developed." In addition, according to a Crimson interview in April with the founder of TECH, Harvard's Dean of the Division of Engineering and Applied Sciences Venkatesh Narayanamurti, the Cantabs may indeed be trying to catch up to Stanford. "In some ways, obviously, Harvard's had some very entrepreneurial students over the years, but on the other hand, emphasizing technology and entrepreneurship is not one of the things Harvard did," he told the Crimson. "As an institution or a division, we did not nurture it the way Stanford did."

Perhaps another indication of Harvard's attempt to catch up with Stanford—and its effort to advance its entrepreneurship programs—are recent rumors about the university's search for a new president; its current head, Neil Rudenstine, is set to leave at the end of this school year. The search committee in charge of nominating the next university head told The New York Times on Mon., Nov. 6 that "the new president did not have to be a scientist, but had to be good at addressing issues of science and technology." Dr. Hanna Gray, former president of the University of Chicago and a member of the search committee, told the Times that Harvard needs a leader who can tackle "the assimilation of new information technologies, the questions that come out of the very rapid growth of scientific discovery, and the new ways in which various disciplines inform each other." TECH is certainly a move in that direction. As Bottino said, "We're interested in educating high-tech leaders of the future, and in order to do that, they need to understand not just the technology, but the world in which it's going to be applied. I think what you see happening out there—technologists being integrated into other fields—bears out our mission."

One of these "technologists" is John Hennessy, the newly-appointed president of Stanford—and the university's first head with an engineering background. In addition, he is co-founder of MIPS Computer Systems, a microprocessor company in Silicon Valley. Though no one at Harvard would comment definitively about whether their choice for a new leader would reflect Stanford's decision, it certainly seems as though administrators in Cambridge are moving in that direction—and in the direction of competing with Stanford even more.

**On the chase**

So, where does that leave Yale? Are we also in the game of "catching up" to and competing with Stanford? According to President Richard Levin, GRD '74, who is himself a Stanford graduate—yes. "Certainly in terms of infusion of technology and Internet culture in undergraduate life, there's no doubt Stanford is uniquely situated, due in part to its location and also to the fact that such a large proportion of their graduates are engineering or science majors," he said. Levin added, "In today's world, the reputation of great universities depends increasingly on their excellence across a wide range of fields. I have seen that to be the best among universities, Yale would need to be among the best in the sciences. So that's the essential goal of Science Hill—to make our science programs competitive with the very best in the world." When asked if those "very best" included Stanford, Levin replied, without hesitating, "Of course, yes."

And two recent developments—the appointment of Gerhard Casper, LAW '62, the former president of Stanford, to the Yale Corporation, and the Corporation's trip to Palo Alto in September 1999—point to the fact that Yale may be attempting to model some of its programs after Stanford's, or at the very least, that the Administration is actively trying to collaborate with the California school.

"We thought it would be interesting to get a close-up look at an institution that was high quality, but quite dissimilar from our own," Levin said of the Corporation's trip. "So we focused our attention on areas where we thought Stanford was quite innovative and out in front, and some areas where frankly, we were looking at things Stanford was doing to emulate Yale. In general, though, I think we can learn a lot from each other."

One of these areas is online education, and Stanford and Yale have already joined hands—along with Oxford and Princeton—in a learning alliance aimed at "setting the standard of online education at the highest level," according to Levin. As a result of the consortium, some have suggested that Yale and Stanford have formed a permanent partnership aimed at bettering each institution. The Crimson, for one, reported in April that "the [online] alliance was only the surface of a larger trend: Yale and Stanford collaborating and exchanging information to better round out their curricula." Levin's response to such speculation? "Maybe [Harvard] is just afraid," he said half-jokingly.

What is no joke—and what is very telling of Stanford's potential rivalry with Harvard and Yale—is the California university's history of competitive faculty recruitment in New Haven and Cambridge. In another Crimson article, Roderick MacFarquhar, a professor of history and political science at Harvard, said that "Stanford has been trying to make big raids [on our department]...We have to guard against those sorts of moves." In the '60s, for example, Stanford virtually rebuilt its history department by snatching away faculty from elite East Coast schools. Even as recently as last year, Stanford lured away Allen Wood, a popular professor of philosophy at Yale.

According to a professor in Yale's history department who wished to remain anonymous, "Even though Stanford doesn't make `raids' here anymore, it's become more of a rival to Harvard and Yale over the past few years." He added that "[Stanford] is a university that's made big strides in many fields and has developed its incredible relationship with Silicon Valley and technology in general. And, of course, [Stanford] pays very well." He also said that the Harvard-Yale rivalry, at least with regard to faculty recruitment, "isn't so binary anymore—that is, Harvard doesn't just look at Yale, and Yale doesn't just look at Harvard. Stanford has certainly come into the fold."</p>

<p>For Levin, though, competition for faculty is welcome. "Stanford, in many fields, and especially in the sciences, has been a formidable competitor for faculty for a long time," he said. "But it's competition for faculty that's the driving force behind [the $500 million Science Hill initiative]. You build a stronger faculty, the reputation of the program rises, and the students follow."</p>

<p>Gold rush</p>

<p>Lately, however, it seems that many students have not followed and are instead flocking to California. This month's Yale Alumni Magazine (YAM) reports that "in addition to its traditional rivals Harvard and Princeton, Yale must now battle Stanford for the top students from the West." Indeed, as Stanford's reputation has risen over the past few decades, so have its admission numbers. **This year, Stanford's acceptance rate was slightly lower than Yale's, and its yield—the number of admitted students who actually matriculate—was one percentage point higher. Though such small differences indicate little about the relative quality of each school, one thing is clear: Stanford is a much bigger competitor with Harvard and Yale for students than it ever used to be.</p>

<p>As the YAM reported, Yale has recently "begun to lose more Stanford common admits than it wins." In the past, Harvard has typically won most students admitted to both Yale and Harvard, but Yale has historically won common admit battles with other colleges like Princeton and MIT. As Shaw told the magazine, "the dot-com world is a big part of the draw for Stanford."**</p>

<p>But Adam Fingerhut, assistant director of undergraduate admissions at Stanford, disagreed with Shaw on that point. "We continue to see students who are interested in coming to Stanford to pursue a variety of things, including the liberal arts," he said. If there's one thing he can agree on, though, it's that Stanford has become a major rival to Harvard and Yale over the past few years, especially with regard to luring prospective students to California. "I think from an admissions standpoint, we've certainly become a major competitor to both Harvard and [Yale]," he said.</p>

<p>Still in the running</p>

<p>Levin, though, remains unfazed. "There's no doubt that Stanford is a serious, serious, very serious contender for faculty and students," he said. "There's no question about that. But let them focus on wherever they want. Yale wants to be the best Yale it can be, and I think we have some distinctive assets, especially with regard to undergraduate life and culture, that I think would be hard for Harvard—and especially Stanford—to replicate."</p>

<p>And, even though Levin has admitted that Stanford is, at this point, superior to many universities with regard to science, technology, and entrepreneurship, he remains adamant that, despite programs like the Mayfield at Stanford and TECH at Harvard, Yale is on equal footing with both schools. "We actually have a program just like those," he said, referring to the Select Program in Engineering, which allows undergraduates to obtain a joint B.S./M.S. degree.</p>

<p>Defending Yale, the anonymous history professor said, "I don't think you can teach entrepreneurship. A lot of it is taught informally, and just because you have a program that says `we do this' doesn't make you superior." Levin agreed, saying, "Rather than start a top-down program like other schools have, we've watched [groups like the Yale Entrepreneurial Society (YES)] with interest. If students take initiative, we should step back and let it happen. Yale students are going to be leaders. Let them lead. It's all the better that way."</p>

<p>Though Levin may ward off suggestions that Yale is falling behind Stanford—at least with respect to technology—with mentions of YES and the Science Hill renovations, it's clear that Yale still has a lot of catching up to do. After all, Stanford has already completed its new ultramodern science quad, and the Science Hill renovations are years from completion. The Mayfield Program attracts well over 100 applicants per year for only 12 available spots, and according to Levin, "if [Select Engineering] has had five students in three years, that would be a lot."</p>

<p>Still, despite Stanford's rise to prominence over the past three decades, does that really mean it's supplanted Yale as Harvard's main rival, as that Crimson editorial said? Are Harvard students really bored with us? "I'm not so sure about that," Levin said, laughing. "I certainly wouldn't concede The Game."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>i think we should stop this discussion here. Hes lost respect for Stanford and I've lost respect for Harvard, where offspring of parents like him are going.</p>

<p>I would attribute Stanfords yield increase to the recent success of its sports teams. </p>

<p>Girls/Boys Basketball, Volleyball, have all been dominating this year. </p>

<p>Students admitted to HPYS and still wanted the D1 sports experience would clearly choose Stanford.</p>

<p>well all of HYPS is D1, it's just that the quality of Stanford's teams is more consistent across all sports. It's not a coincidence that Stanford has won the NCAA Director's cup 12 times in a row and counting.</p>

<p>At any rate, it seems to me that sour grapes are involved in making the assertion that Stanford has caught "Tufts Syndrome."</p>

<p>What reason is there for yield protection anymore anyways? It's no longer a factor in any college ranking methodology, so I don't see why colleges would even bother. Stanford probably picks the best students/student matches it can.</p>

<p>I think the "randomness" of the acceptances of Stanford have a lot to do with their application. Harvard and Yale have applications that are pretty much identical. Stanford's is lengthier, more personal, and more "creative" in order to identify that intellectual vitality they're so fond of. There's also a mini-essay asking why Stanford specifically would be the right place for the applicant, which the readers often read aloud during their committee meetings. By the virtue of the application and the admissions officers reading the applications, a different (perhaps more holistic?) impression of the applicant will be formed (versus the snapshot that HY's two essays provide). Clearly, it's a matter of admissions offices looking for different things; better writers and more creative people as well as folks who KNOW what an education at Stanford specifically is about will reap the benefit of Stanford's application, while people who are not as adept at extensive written communcation/ "leaping off the page" or just applying because hell it's Stanford!- are less likely to be accepted. HY's applications, being more facts-based, seem to reward more hard, factual achievement. (Yale does have a space asking about why the applicant would want to go to Yale, but it's 200 characters and would probably require all of five seconds to write.) Just a hypothesis, but it actually kind of makes sense when I think about the people I know who were admitted to these schools. </p>

<p>But the whole Tuft's syndrome thing is silly, especially when I know many a cross admit who's chosen Stanford over everything else.</p>

<p>I have actually heard a few rumors of Princeton practicing mild selective admissions to keep their yield up and their admit rate low, (which, again, anecdotally, would make sense based on some acquaintances) but there's really no way to prove such a thing.</p>

<p>this whole thread is pretty ridiculous. stanford attracts some of the best and brightest students in the world. it is absurd that there is such a thing as being overqualified for stanford. matrix dad, have you ever even been to stanford? talked to its students? you should have heard the things president hennessy had to say about the class of 2012. and if you actually knew what you were talking about you might realize that PLENTY ( i cant say the exact number but quite a few ) admitted students are cross admits of at least another of the hypm schools, and i suppose if they were over qualified at stanford they would be as well for those other four, seeing as stanford is ridiculously good and high ranked academically in almost every single area (versus harvard where the engineering program could never rival stanford's, or mit which is too science-oriented, etc.). if other schools have tufts syndrome, its so they dont lose admits to stanford or one of its very few peer schools.<br>
unless you write another school's name in the "why stanford" essay and/or clearly indicate somehow that you have no intention of going there (which can be judged by an applicants writing sample that you would never have access to read), im pretty sure the admissions officers know that many, many students would do anything for a chance to go there, even if accepted at any other school in the planet. i even met a kid at AW who got into oxford (yes the one in england, kind of cooler than harvard or yale if you ask me) and chose stanford, not to mention many (most of the ones i met there) who are choosing stanford over harvard, yale, princeton, and mit. so yeah, they were very overqualified. some people think its very reasonable to call stanford the best school in the us, especially since it's so good at so many things, but im sure they only want mildly brilliant kids and are leaving the real geniuses to harvard and yale...not :p</p>

<p>Yes--this thread is ridiculous and provocative. We may never know the underlying facts regarding the OP's motivation in making his foolish 'Tufts Syndrome' charge. However, based on his posting history, we can speculate. Stanford's admission process requires no defense or the OP's respect.</p>

<p>Agree. Methinks someone was a little surprised to have gotten rejected from S.</p>

<p>Methinks the OP doth protest too much. Tufts Syndrome? Hah! Yield protection might be slightly important, but on a whole, I do believe that Stanford is...Stanford. No one is "over-qualified" for a school. It seems impractical and improbable that the Stanford adcoms said "Ah...this girl cured cancer and this boy started a Philanthropic organization reaching millions. They can't possibly want to go to Stanford, we're just their safety school." Does anyone else seem perturbed by such thoughts?</p>

<p>^i know. after all, stanford alumni are such under achievers. forget technological advances and supreme court justices, those only want to go to harvard. they might get bored by all the mediocre kids at stanford who werent too overqualified to get in :p</p>

<p>matrixdad got scared...hes not coming back</p>

<p>^^^whatever...sour grapes is right</p>

<p>D accepted Stanford over H, among others. So there.</p>

<p>
[quote]
they are good samples (may be 5-10 %, not sure), at least statistically.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No they are not. It is time once again to post my FAQ on voluntary response surveys: </p>

<p>VOLUNTARY RESPONSE POLLS </p>

<p>One professor of statistics, who is a co-author of a highly regarded AP statistics textbook, has tried to popularize the phrase that "voluntary response data are worthless" to go along with the phrase "correlation does not imply causation." Other statistics teachers are gradually picking up this phrase.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Math</a> Forum Discussions</p>

<p>I am surprised to see more attacking than rational debating. For past decades, Stanford did a great job in many areas. It likes a shining rainbow on the west coast. I have no problem the accept these. I agree that using “Tufts Syndrome” is too strong and not accurate. </p>

<p>The key issue here is that did (or did not) Stanford play the yield protection game? To my belief it did based on three observations:
1) After HP eliminated the early program. Almost all the elite colleges (keeping early program) saw significant increase in their early applicant pools except Stanford.
2) From the accepted/rejected list, Stanford’s process is much more “random”.
3) Stanford’s yield hit record high while others hold steady.
The resource did not show good improvement, but through more “random” process to achieve improved yield. Based on these facts, I believe they played yield protection game.</p>

<p>From all the posts in opposite side, I can not see any convincing defense. Their theories are mainly based on:
1) Stanford is Stanford. This argument has no value.
2) Stanford has great achievement in last two decades. How can they play yield protection game? Yes, Stanford did great in last decades. But the question is did they play yield game or not. If they rejected the applicant they do not believe he/she will attend Stanford. What the net effects?
3) Stanford focused less on number.<br>
4) The people posted on the accepted/rejected list only represent a small group of applicants. It does not reflect the whole population. Yes, I agree. Compare this group people with the whole Stanford applicant pool. These samples have bias. But, if we compare this group with the people posted on HY. These kinds of bias have been knocked off.</p>

<p>
[quote]
But, if we compare this group with the people posted on HY. These kinds of bias have been knocked off.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not necessarily. They are still all voluntary response samples.</p>

<p>Some very talented students, who win public awards that list the colleges they are interested in (like Intel/STS), may be rejected by HYPMS for "yield" reasons...or...because they want to reserve the precious spots in their entering class for students who really want to go to their school. </p>

<p>I remember a parent saying "If Harvard rejected him, who are they looking for?" Well, the "him" in this situation was an Intel/STS finalist, national grand prize winner in a humanities contest, straight A student, great EC's , great test scores etc -- but the PR pieces put out by a number of his awards stated that he wanted to go to Stanford or Cal Tech. Two ivies rejected him. Similar student.. with similar stats including a Davidson fellowship....stated he wanted to go to Harvard or Yale. He was rejected at Stanford.</p>

<p>Perhaps at some point, the OP's daughter, who has outside scholarships based on his posts on other threads, indicated somewhere that Stanford may not be her first choice.....</p>

<p>Universities that play the "yield protection game" believe that the brightest and the best students they have accepted will not choose to go there, and therefore these universities accept less "qualified" students who are more likely to accept their offers. This would occur if and only if these universities have a reason for believing that they are inferior in the "prestige" scale. </p>

<p>Seen in this light, there is no reason for Stanford to play the yield protection game. In fact, Stanford even offers what Harvard or MIT can't: kickass humanities, kickass tech/engineering, and kickass athletics. Also, the fact that the admissions/housing offices are going crazy right now because "too many" have accepted shows that they didn't plan for the yield to go up in the first place.</p>