Stanford, Princeton, Harvard, or Columbia?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Stanford University
1

<p>I remember coming across a post last year asking advice on choosing among some of the finest colleges in the U.S., and being very jealous of the poster. It is to my great surprise and delight that I am now in a similar situation. I was accepted SCEA at Stanford and RD at Princeton, Harvard, and Columbia, and waitlisted at Yale. I've always been set on Stanford, but after my ivy acceptances my dad suggested that I do some more research on all the schools so that I can make a more informed decision. I would very much appreciate the help and advice from current students, alumni, parents, and applicants who share my pleasant but difficult dilemma! :)</p>

<p>Here's some of my personal info for your consideration:</p>

<p>I'm a female U.S. citizen from Taiwan, and I've attended Chinese schools my whole life. I want to be in an environment where my unique experiences or lack of experience will not negatively affect my social life. (I have never been to parties that serve alcohol, have only a faint idea what a sorority is, and commute to school by train every day. (=don't have a driver's license yet.))</p>

<p>I like to think of myself as well-rounded, easy-going, and hard-working. I don't mind constructive competition, and love discussing academics and interesting tidbits of knowledge with friends. I tend to vent at my friends in the face of pressure or overwork. But I don't like it when things get toooo competitive or tense. I'm a little tense myself, so I would like to be somewhere a little more laidback. (I know Stanford's very laidback...but what about the other schools?)</p>

<p>Criteria for Schools: Quality of dorms, social activities, diversity, quality of food (:)), and on-and-off campus life. Weather is an issue, but I know Stanford's weather is the best, followed by Princeton, so I need more information on the other factors.</p>

<p>Prospective Major(s): Comparitive Lit, Linguistics, or Neuro Biology. Also probably physics. (=undecded:p) I have a deep passion for literature and creative writing, and want to find a profession in academic research or teaching.</p>

<p>Oh, and as I live in Taiwan and do not have a spring break, I won't make it to any of the admit weekends. :( I'll have to make a decision without visiting any of the schools, so I am in great need of your input! :)</p>

<p>That's probably it for now. Sorry for the long post, but I wanted anyone who's as kind to help to make an informed comment. :) I would very much appreciate any comments and suggestions, preferably targeting the criteria and majors I listed.</p>

<p>Thank you very much!</p>

2

<p>I'll tell you what's on my mind:</p>

<p>First of all, I got into Stanford SCEA, and that was going to be the end of the line for me (my gf goes to Stanford, I like Cali, etc.). I had already told everybody that no matter where I got in, I was going to go to S (if I got in). I applied to the others on partly a whim, partly a guilty-I-didn't-apply-enough-places feeling. I also wanted to dispel the stereotypical asian automatically going to Harvard, uh, stereotype lol. I applied to MIT, P, and H. In at MIT, waitlisted at P and H. So as it was, I don't get to turn down H... but oh well.</p>

<p>So why, exactly, don't I like the east coast? For me, the biggest thing that I don't like (and keep in mind this is a personal preference, some people may be the opposite) is the constant professional atmosphere - the competition and class-based society. Most people I know that come from the east coast, including my P interviewer, always mentioned a somewhat pervasive class-based attitude. Even after she left college, in meeting other people, one of the first questions exchanged was always "so where did you go to school?"</p>

<p>I chose to stay on the west coast simply because I don't want to deal with that kind of constant cutthroat competition one-upping each other. I'm sure you've heard the duck analogy for Stanford, and the corresponding shark analogy for the Ivy League.</p>

<p>And I remember which thread you're talking about from last year. Vietnamese guy got into every Ivy League plus S and a couple others. I thought he was a freak too =D</p>

3

<p>I've visited all the schools to which you were accepted, and Stanford is my first choice out of all of them. Stanford cannot be beat as far as UNDERGRADUATE research goes...all of the schools you mentioned have awesome graduate programs, but I spent the summer at Harvard and I know that they do not emphasize undergrads as much as I would like.
Also, I get the impression that very little new blood is coming into the ivies because they are so focused on 5 generation alums, endowments, etc. But mostly, I think Stanford is where the cutting edge research, the "here and now" is. Ivies seem to put an emphasis on "oh look, I'm at an ivy league school" while Stanford students are the doers, the researchers, the entrepreneurs, and the first in line to tackle the worlds biggest problems. It speaks volumes that Stanford's endowment is catching up to Harvard and Harvard has been around for 3 times as long.</p>

<p>I chose Stanford from all the ivies to apply to early, and I am definitely enrolling in the class of 2011.</p>

4

<p>I'll give you a case for Columbia. I ended up applying ED there but my other two favorite schools were Princeton and Stanford. I don't know very much about Harvard.</p>

<p>Sorority/fraternity activity is basically not a factor at all due to its location. Princeton also has the famed eating clubs, which are (in my humble opinion) glorified fraternities which are either bicker (you have to go through an app process and initiation) or sign up. These are the cornerstone of Princeton social life and something which, quite frankly, did not appeal to me at all. At Columbia, there's a balance of campus oriented activities while still allowing you to pursue your interests off campus (No school on Fridays!) If you want to be in an amazing and dynamic city, NYC is the place for you (internships, activities, arts, it's pretty much endless). I'd also argue that NY weather is the same as or better than NJ weather. </p>

<p>Columbia attracts the type of people who are interested in pushing their boundaries both intellectually and socially. Diversity on campus (and off campus) is absolutely unparalleled.The off-campus life is unbeatable. I visited both Princeton and Stanford and they were absolutely gorgeous, but I felt somewhat "trapped" on the campus and didn't feel that I wanted suburbia for my college years. The social life on both as a result (in my opinion) was more oriented toward drinking and the frats/eating clubs/etc.</p>

<p>Columbia is not cutthroat. Students certainly work together. They do study very hard, but please don't get the impression that this doesn't happen at Stanford. Stanford is an extremely challenging school and does require intensive work time. Princeton has recently implemented grade DEFLATION, so that only 35% of the students in a class can get As. Apparently, this has made students even more competitive. Also, you can't double major at Princeton, you can only get certificates. Columbia allows you to take some classes Pass/Fail and they have recently implemented the option of letting you "reveal" your grade if you are pleased with it after taking a P/F course which I think is a fantastic idea. I feel that in this way, Columbia encourages you to study outside of your discipline..not only with the Core Curriculum but with its academic policies as well. </p>

<p>Also, Columbia prides itself on its intellectualism. This is attributed to the Core Curriculum, which provides a common base of literary, social, and political thought. Definitely investigate the Core Curriculum if you're interested in Columbia as it's an integral part of the experience.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.college.columbia.edu/students/academics/core/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.college.columbia.edu/students/academics/core/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Columbia has wonderful programs in every area you mentioned. Go ahead and look at the departments of instruction page to get a feel for the classes. (<a href="http://www.college.columbia.edu/students/academics/depts/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.college.columbia.edu/students/academics/depts/&lt;/a&gt;) </p>

<p>I have to go now but I hope that helped. I'll probably be back later with some more info :)</p>

5

<p>Thank you all so much with the helpful inputs! :)</p>

<p>Julyinoh: I don't like the "class-based attitude" you mentioned, either. And I would much rather swim with ducks than sharks! And yes, I was refering to that thread! :) Really appreciate your comments!</p>

<p>Baberconcerto: My Harvard interviewer told me that Harvard puts a bit less focus on undergraduates, too. But would Princeton be better, as it prides itself in its undergraduate program? Also, thank you very much and congrats on getting into your No.1 school! :)</p>

<p>Viva<em>sweet</em>love: My Columbia interviewer raved about her experience at Columbia and NYC. I would imagine studying in NYC to be an amazing experience, doubly so since I dream of becoming a writer and would certainly be exposed to many new people and experiences there. Also, I love the idea of a vibrant, artsy life. But can city life become too complicated and crowded? Thanks for the links and the input on the Core! The option to double major is quite important to me. Thank you very much for your helpful comments! :) Oh, and I harbor no illusions that Stanford will not be challenging. :) I just hope I can be in an atmosphere where sometimes, after A LOT of hard work, I can temporarily forget that it is. ;)</p>

6

<p>Being in NYC vs. being at Stanford will offer a very different experience. I personally wouldn't want to be at a school in the middle of a busy city like NYC. I love that many students will be around on the weekend, not trapped, but just choose to stay on campus. There are tons of social opportunities on the weekends that don't involve drinking. I've never felt at all pressured to drink at Stanford. (This may be different at Princeton, I'm not a student there, so I wouldn't know) I don't know about you, but during the school year I tend to want to focus on academics, activities, etc. I don't really have time to have an internship on top of all of that. There's plenty of time for internships over the summer, and then they won't get in the way of your studies. At Stanford you could also just take a quarter off and have an internship for a quarter. It wouldn't be hard to do that for a quarter and still graduate in 4 years. Stanford students do work very, very hard, but they still manage to have fun (not necessarily by drinking or partying!). Students are very helpful and cooperative. I know Stanford is very strong in all the fields you mentioned, and I know of at least a few really awesome profs in many of those fields. When I think "physics" I never think "Columbia," but maybe that's just me? Columbia is a great school, although it's very different from Stanford, in large part because of its location. Make sure you really want to be in NYC if you go there! If you do want to be in the city, Columbia would be a much, much better choice than Stanford. </p>

<p>I'm not personally a fan of either Harvard or Princeton. I've had friends go to both of those schools who were very unhappy with their experience there (one at Princeton who is so unhappy that she is seriously considering transfering). I haven't heard great things about Harvard for the undergraduate program, although this may be because students go there because they want to say they go to Harvard. My sample size is relatively small, so this certainly isn't statistically significant, but it would be enough for me to think twice about going there. </p>

<p>Please please please don't choose a school based only on the name. Try to learn as much as you can about the campus culture and choose a school that seems like the best fit for you (city vs. suburban, laid-back vs. competitive, etc.). If you do that, you will end up at a college that will be right for you and you'll have an amazing four years. </p>

<p>Good luck! Feel free to PM me with any questions you may have about Stanford.</p>

7

<p>ROCKao: Seeing as you're in Taiwan, this might be hard, but what would really help is visiting one or two of your top choices out of those four. We can try as we may to describe the campus to you, but we all look for different things and each campus will feel differently to us. At the very least, visiting would reinforce your enthusiasm for one (or two or four) certain colleges.</p>

<p>EDIT: I myself have never visited the east coast either. So take everything I say with a grain of salt.</p>

<p>And I have that thread bookmarked. I remember reading it last year, then going back a couple months ago and trying to find it. I found it and bookmarked it, but it was no easy task lol. Man that guy is just SO AMAZING!!!</p>

8

<p>marlgirl: Thanks for the comments! Right now Stanford's at the top of my list, with Princeton closely behind. May I ask you what in particular made your friend unhappy with her experience at Princeton? Thanks again! You have been very helpful!</p>

<p>julyinoh: I REALLY want to visit at least Stanford and Princeton, but right now my crazy senior schedule and the prince of plane tickets seem to make it impossible. Do you happen to know where the guy ended up going?</p>

<p>Which campus do you think has the nicest dorms?</p>

<p>Thanks again! :)</p>

9

<p>I found out yesterday that there's another friend of the family who went to Princeton and hated it... I think for this friend it was a social thing, they just felt really out of place in Princeton's social scene, probably in large part because of all the eating clubs. I think my friend probably wasn't crazy about the eating clubs, although I imagine that's less of a big deal to her. She has had a really awful time with the math department there. I imagine there's other stuff too, I've just heard her complain a lot about the math department in particular. I've also heard (I'm not entirely sure how accurate this is, this is through a high school teacher from my high school who I trust to both know these things and tell the truth) that students are very competitive and will steal each others notes, etc. I have no clue if that's true, you'd probably want a second source to confirm that. I just haven't heard of people going to Princeton and having a good experience there. I've never heard of people coming to Stanford and hating it. </p>

<p>Stanford's dorms are rather plain. They aren't fancy with fireplaces, etc., but I've been very happy with the rooms I've had here. They are pretty basic, with a lot more space than I had expected.</p>

10

<p>If weather is an issue, Stanford is your only choice ;).</p>

11

<p>ROCKao - Sorry, I don't know what he ended up doing. I'm going to go ahead and say that the main differences between Princeton and Stanford are 1. weather; 2. the attitude (hearsay). Stanford has better weather (duh). And Princeton has its eating clubs, which is something I personally don't like, but you should look into it for yourself.</p>

12

<p>julyinoh: Thanks for the input! :)</p>

13

<p>I'm in the Princeton Class of 2010, and I'd like to clarify a couple of things.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, I get the impression that very little new blood is coming into the ivies because they are so focused on 5 generation alums, endowments, etc. But mostly, I think Stanford is where the cutting edge research, the "here and now" is. Ivies seem to put an emphasis on "oh look, I'm at an ivy league school" while Stanford students are the doers, the researchers, the entrepreneurs, and the first in line to tackle the worlds biggest problems.

[/quote]

This is definitely not true (at Princeton anyway). Perhaps in the old days, Princeton was somewhat staid; nowadays, Princeton as an institution is just as much on the move as Stanford. The administration is constantly pushing for new initiatives to expand arts and science programs, maintain and improve student life, and pour ever more research/summer resources on undergrads. While Stanford's proximity to Silicon Valley helps in technology innovation, Princeton's proximity to NYC and long history helps in financial, political, and arts innovations. As for students, I'm a first generation college student for example. The Princeton student body is no less diverse than Stanford's.</p>

<p>
[quote]
There are tons of social opportunities on the weekends that don't involve drinking. I've never felt at all pressured to drink at Stanford. (This may be different at Princeton, I'm not a student there, so I wouldn't know)

[/quote]

I do not drink at all, and I know a great number of other Princetonians that also do not. And among those who do drink, there isn't any pressure at all on everyone else to drink. It really is not a problem. :)</p>

<p>
[quote]
For me, the biggest thing that I don't like (and keep in mind this is a personal preference, some people may be the opposite) is the constant professional atmosphere - the competition and class-based society. Most people I know that come from the east coast, including my P interviewer, always mentioned a somewhat pervasive class-based attitude. Even after she left college, in meeting other people, one of the first questions exchanged was always "so where did you go to school?"

[/quote]

Competition at Princeton is not cutthroat at all (especially compared to schools such as UC Berkeley). Most classes actually encourage collaboration, even for subjects you might think are single-person-type endeavors (like computer programming).</p>

<p>
[quote]
I found out yesterday that there's another friend of the family who went to Princeton and hated it... I think for this friend it was a social thing, they just felt really out of place in Princeton's social scene, probably in large part because of all the eating clubs. I think my friend probably wasn't crazy about the eating clubs, although I imagine that's less of a big deal to her. She has had a really awful time with the math department there. I imagine there's other stuff too, I've just heard her complain a lot about the math department in particular. I've also heard (I'm not entirely sure how accurate this is, this is through a high school teacher from my high school who I trust to both know these things and tell the truth) that students are very competitive and will steal each others notes, etc. I have no clue if that's true, you'd probably want a second source to confirm that. I just haven't heard of people going to Princeton and having a good experience there.

[/quote]

The social scene at Princeton often does have to do with the eating clubs, but it's not a problem: I might not be a particular fan of the eating clubs, but the fact that they are all in a certain location means they don't affect my social life in any way unless I go to them. And I like having this choice. People definitely do NOT steal each other's notes! That sounds like UC Berkeley.</p>

<p>I, for one, am definitely enjoying my time at Princeton - and I don't know anyone at Princeton who isn't. :)</p>

<p>Princeton's dorms are really nice - the Gothic architecture of the dorms is really beautiful (and I personally think living in a castle with modern conveniences is pretty cool), and I have friends from U Penn that are shocked to see that our singles are as big as their doubles.</p>

<p>As for weather...first, I have lived in southern California - which has probably the mildest and best weather in the U.S. if not the world - for my entire life. So weather was a factor for me too. But now that I've lived through a winter at Princeton, I would say it was not so bad at all. In fact, I loved it - Princeton has the mildest weather of the Ivies (being in the mid-Atlantic rather than New England region) and still has snow, which is actually really fun in moderate amounts (which is what you would get at Princeton). The snow-covered campus is one of the loveliest sights to behold. And when spring comes, the cherry blossoms bloom, and the campus is gorgeous (but in a different way).</p>

<p>As for majors, you sound well balanced. Physics, math, and engineering/natural sciences at Princeton are very, very strong, so you would have a good time with those subjects. But Princeton's economics, social sciences, and humanities departments are also top-notch (much stronger than, I would venture, Stanford's social sciences and humanities departments).</p>

<p>Also, the International Center and Taiwanese Students Association at Princeton are both very active groups, so you would definitely feel at home. :)</p>

<p>It would be very helpful if you visited and saw everything for yourself!</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
But Princeton's economics, social sciences, and humanities departments are also top-notch (much stronger than, I would venture, Stanford's social sciences and humanities departments).

[/quote]

I'm sorry to say that if you were to venture such a claim, you would be completely wrong. If we use the NRC rankings (admittedly out of date, but still likely to be approximately correct) and look at the OP's prospective humanities-type majors, we find:
Comparative Lit: Stanford #9, Princeton #5
Linguistics: Stanford #2, Princeton unranked (i.e., lacked a program at the time, I don't know if this is still true).</p>

<p>As a broader point, Princeton is probably slightly stronger in the humanities, with top-10 programs in Art History, Classics, Comp Lit, French, German, Music, Philosophy, Religion and Spanish, compared to Stanford, with top-10 programs in Comp Lit, English, French, German, Linguistics, and Philosophy.
In the social sciences, Stanford is significantly better than Princeton. Stanford has top-10 programs in Anthropology, Economics, History, Political Science, Psychology, and Sociology, while Princeton only has top-10 programs in Economics, History, and Political Science. History was the only one of 6 social science programs in which Princeton was rated more highly than Stanford. </p>

<p>So, basically, in general, Stanford is significantly better in the social sciences, Princeton is slightly better in the humanities, and for what the OP is actually interested in, Stanford is better, since Princeton lacks an established linguistics program entirely (since it didn't have one at all as of 1995). For the sciences the OP is interested in, Stanford is far stronger in neurobiology (Princeton had no program as of 1995), while Princeton is somewhat stronger in Physics.</p>

15

<p>But we are talking about more than ten years ago, and Princeton was a VERY different place ten years ago (for example, before our current President, Admissions Dean, Dean of Faculty, and Dean of Undergrad Students assumed office). In addition, the NRC rankings rate the graduate programs, do they not? While there is certainly a relation between grad and undergrad programs in the same fields, using the NRC rankings becomes even less reliable still.</p>

<p>P.S. Princeton does currently have a linguistics program.</p>

16

<p>I won't be too sure about the weather. I personally do not like heat... and I've been to San Jose for many times. Especially in summer, the temperature is like 40 something degree.</p>

<p>But I still love Stanford.</p>

17

<p>Stanford actually doesn't get that hot though! I went there during the summer, and it was usually about 75 degrees in the heat of the day.</p>

18

<p>
[quote]
I, for one, am definitely enjoying my time at Princeton - and I don't know anyone at Princeton who isn't.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My school sends a large amount of students to Princeton each year (4-7, this year 10 people) and I personally know of 4 people who actually vocally express dissatisfaction with Princeton. 2 of my sister's friends, in fact, transferred out of Princeton (to Stanford) because they couldn't fit in at any social scene in Princeton.</p>

<p>My school sends roughly the same amount to Stanford and I don't know a single person who doesn't love it at Stanford. They're not just content. They actually tell me they love it.</p>

<p>Granted, experiences may be different for each person, and I tried not to let their opinions sway me too much, but, when I went to visit Princeton, I got the feeling that the social life was very clique-y, with people constantly secluding themselves from each other. It bothered me, even though I still applied and got in and love Princeton's academics.</p>

19

<p>Wow, what school do you go to, Hrteeexz? :)</p>

<p>So what we have are different anecdotes, and that's totally fine, since having different viewpoints is helpful in making a decision like this.</p>

<p>But I want to make sure there isn't some idea that everyone at Princeton is having a bad time. Sure you may know people that didn't enjoy Princeton, but I live on the Princeton campus, I know hundreds of Princetonians, I am a Princetonian, and I happen to know of none who complain about going to school here. The vast majority of Princetonians are happy here. Princeton has one of the highest freshman retention rates (98%) and alumni giving rates. While the experiences of our acquaintances may be different, overall no one can conclude that people are generally more or less satisfied at Stanford or Princeton.</p>

20

<p>
[quote]
But we are talking about more than ten years ago, and Princeton was a VERY different place ten years ago (for example, before our current President, Admissions Dean, Dean of Faculty, and Dean of Undergrad Students assumed office). In addition, the NRC rankings rate the graduate programs, do they not? While there is certainly a relation between grad and undergrad programs in the same fields, using the NRC rankings becomes even less reliable still.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>On the other hand, you have absolutely no evidence to back up your claims, except assertions. I admit that it's hard to know exactly how strong various programs are relative to each other, but to simply assert that Princeton is "much stronger" in the humanities and social sciences is a groundless and patently untrue statement.
As to the relation between strength of graduate and undergraduate programs, I fully agree that the connection is very weak. I think that at most top universities and LACs, you will find that their programs in every area of study (assuming they have a program) will be of a similar quality from the perspective of an undergraduate as the programs at their peer universities, regardless of ratings. Essentially, I don't buy into the claim that a university rated 3rd in a given field will be any better in it for the purposes of an undergrad than the university rated 20th, assuming the student bodies are of roughly the same quality to begin with, and the universities have similar undergraduate resources in general (both of which are the case when comparing Stanford and Princeton). For this reason, I would argue that an undergrad deciding where to go should essentially ignore strength of specific academic departments (assuming programs in one's area of interest exist) in favor of a much more personal notion of "fit" (i.e. visit both schools and see how you feel at each of them).
But, even though I consider department strength useless for deciding where to go as an undergrad, since you made a blatantly false claim about the relative strength of certain fields at Princeton and Stanford, I felt the need to correct it.</p>