<p>I think this thread will be helpful to me as I am also a cross admit at HYPSM plus Penn's Jerome Fisher Program. I have narrowed my choices down to HSPenn, but as an east coast student, cannot relate to Stanford's weather, atmosphere, or in general anything about the west coast.</p>
<p>In terms of job placement (not that this is the paramount factor), would you guys say Jerome Fisher>Harvard> Stanford? Opinions would be appreciated.</p>
<p>Totally depends on what type of job you're looking for, the above comments were just about Wall-Street and banking.</p>
<p>I am referring specifically to Wall Street high powered finance jobs, i.e. investment banking, sales and trading, etc, even management consulting</p>
<p>Wall Street firms recruit heavily from all of those schools. However, they view M&T as one of the very top programs among the Ivy Plus group. SATs, GPAs, etc are top of the mark. Students are very very analytical and hard working (engineering degree) but the business education (Wharton is #1 for undergrad business) allows students to hit the ground running in a way other students can't.</p>
<p>And Penn will allow you easier access to NYC than Boston (90 minutes away) and what's reputed to be a very social & fun school (Penn as the social Ivy - check that term on this board for more info).</p>
<p>My view:</p>
<p>if you're completely focused on Wall Street, go to Penn. You'll get a great overall education (lib arts plus engineering and business) which neither Stanford or Harvard can match. </p>
<p>Harvard has great resources and an unrivaled pedigree, but you can always go to Harvard for grad school. Or Stanford for that matter.</p>
<p>Hope that helps.</p>
<p>Harvard hands down.</p>
<p>Harvard is on par or better than Wharton in terms of placement, but Wharton grads are reputed to be better prepped for finance (and if you come to Harvard you'll almost certainly need to take the Accounting course at MIT). The Jerome Fisher program is better than either Harvard or Wharton alone, however, provided that you actually make it out in good standing and with good grades (no small feat).</p>
<p>That being said, you should truly examine your commitment to Wall Street and finance. The industry will change a lot over the next few years (bet on a new regulatory climate, at a minimum) and while it will still be lucrative the structure could look very different in four years, as will you yourself. Many people decide they don't want to go into finance anymore after a few summers in NY working slave hours for a pro-rated 60-70k salary (ends up barely covering living costs, PS). Others eat it up. </p>
<p>Either way, it might be a good idea to think about covering your bases and not specializing too early...</p>
<p>I get the impression from talking to Wharton friends (not M&T - just general Wharton) that Wharton has an edge in placing into smaller banks + PE, while Harvard has an edge for management consulting. Banking + S&T might be toss ups?</p>
<p>For those of you at Harvard right now, do prospective ibankers/finance people usually take accounting classes at MIT? </p>
<p>I see M&T as the ideal program if I am sure of going to Wall Street. The engineering base is technical and rigorous, while Wharton no doubt will teach me the tricks of trade in business. Plus, the Penn incessantly emphasize Penn's "One University Policy," which supposedly offers an incredible diversity in courses. </p>
<p>However, with that being said, Harvard seems to have a more talented student body in general, and there are several activities/clubs that I am already looking forward to. In addition, its raw intellectual power is impressive, and it seems to be more integrated and coherent than Penn. </p>
<p>Yet one thing still pricks my curiosity. Harvard students are known to be competitive, but so are Wharton students. Which environment offers a more "friendly" atmosphere?</p>
<p>"Flip-flop" kind of guy, shorts too, go to Stanford. It's all about the weather!</p>
<p>Can always do graduate work at Harvard. It is #1 in ECON btw, tied with uchicago. (MIT might not agree though!) As Albert would say, it's all relative.</p>
<p>But then again, you can always go the other way! </p>
<p>CHOICES eh! Congrat.</p>
<p>Yes, most of the people who are seriously interested in finance (as opposed to consulting) will take the accounting course at MIT. It's a very streamlined process to cross-register. Many banks wouldn't care too much if you hadn't taken it, but it's a good thing to talk about in interviews and would definitely help you in your work over summer internships.</p>
<p>"In the entire range of academic disciplines (arts, humanities, social sciences, natural sciences, engineering, professions) Stanford is equal to or superior to Harvard."</p>
<p>Actually, Harvard is better than Stanford in each of these areas with the exception of engineering.</p>
<p>Harvard is unquestionably better than Stanford in the arts, humanities, and social sciences. Yale and Princeton are probably better than Stanford in the humanities as well. </p>
<p>Stanford does come close to Harvard in some natural sciences, but overall Harvard just has many more big stars (around 180 National Academy members compared to around 120 at Stanford, more Nobel laureates, etc.), publishes a heck of a lot more (Check # citations in Nature, Science, Cell, etc.), attracts several times the amount of research funding. </p>
<p>Likewise, in the professions, I would say Stanford Law and Stanford Business come pretty close in terms of quality of training. However, in terms of overall impact, pleeeez! Harvard Law grads rule the Supreme Court, the U.S. Senate, and the best law firms in the country. Harvard Law Review is the most influential law journal in the country. Just think about how many Harvard Law grads you've been hearing about in the news. Harvard Business grads make up by far the largest percentage among the top C.E.O.s. Harvard Med dwarfs Stanford Med in research output and funding. </p>
<p>More important and perhaps more relevant, Stanford undergrad program is at best #3 or 4, after Harvard and Yale, and maybe tied to Princeton or slightly better than Princeton. This is true in terms of both selectivity and admissions yield. Stanford usually lags behind Harvard and Yale in winning prestigious fellowships. Stanford rarely wins the Putnam Competition, which Harvard dominates. Stanford came after HYP when The Wall Street Journal determined which undergraduate schools sent most of their graduates to the top graduate schools in the country. </p>
<p>The main reason why Stanford does well for graduate school is because it's a nice place for professors to live. And it's far away from the East Coast, and doesn't have to compete directly with Harvard. On the other hand, the West Coast will never be the political, financial, and intellectual center of the country. Ergo, Stanford will never be Harvard. </p>
<p>I would say for graduate schools, Stanford is #2 after Harvard, but for undergraduate it's #3 or #4. For engineering, it might be #2 or #3.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That said, Stanford is boss at engineering.
[/quote]
LMAO @ boss</p>
<p>First of all, these two are the best 2 universities in the world. Prestigewise, Harvard has a tiny edge (ignorable to people who know America's higher education).</p>
<p>Obviously, Stanford is much better than Harvard in engineering. Stanford has 84 professors in the national academy of engineering, while Harvard only has 14. Without Stanford, none of you guys is able to surf the internet. Stanford is the driving force in creating modern technologies, including genetic engineering, GPS, laser, transistor, microprocessor, radar, robotics, and of course internet. Stanford is the wellspring of Silicon Valley, which is the world's technology locomotive.</p>
<p>In sciences, Harvard and Stanford are basically tied. Harvard has most NAS members (167) among U.S. universities, while Stanford has 2nd most NAS members (128). Note that Harvard has more than 10,000 faculty members while Stanford has less than 2000. In 2009 US NEWS graduate school ranking, Stanford beats Harvard in biology, chemistry, physics, computer science, and geology, and is tied with Harvard in math. So Stanford seems to have an edge now, at least according to the survey on academic peers. Of course, US News is not a gold standard. But I think it is fair to say Stanford is not worse than Harvard in sciences. </p>
<p>According to US News, in social science, Harvard is #1 in political science, #3 in economics, #5 in psycology, and #8 in sociology, while Stanford is #2 in politics, #3 in economics, # 1 in psycology, and #6 in sociology. Again, Stanford seems to have a tiny edge. So it is fair to say Stanford is not worse than Harvard in social sciences.</p>
<p>For humanities, according to US News, Harvard is #1 in English, #4 in history, while Stanford is #4 in English, and #4 in history. The edge may go to Haravrd, but not by much. Right?</p>
<p>For professional schools, Harvard is #1 in business, #2 in law, #1 in medicine, and #5 in education, while Stanford is #1 in business, #2 in law, #8 in medicine, and #1 in education. Apparently, They are tied up. I admit Harvard has a big advantage in medical science. So it is fair to say Harvard is #1 in professional schools. But Stanford is a very close #2, perhaps the only one that can dethrone Harvard. If you count engineering school as a professional school, then there is a strong argument to say Stanford is #1, and Harvard is #2.</p>
<p>Overall, I think it is fair to say Harvard and Stanford are about equal. They are top notched in many many fields. Harvard and Stanford are most well rounded universities in the world (along with Berkeley).</p>
<p>To me, HYPS should be replaced by HSBMCPY, with B=Berkeley, M=MIT, C=Caltech, P=Princeton, and Y=Yale.</p>
<p>First of all, these two are the best 2 universities in the world. Prestigewise, Harvard has a tiny edge (ignorable to people who know America's higher education).</p>
<p>Obviously, Stanford is much better than Harvard in engineering. Stanford has 84 professors in the national academy of engineering, while Harvard only has 14. Without Stanford, none of you guys is able to surf the internet. Stanford is the driving force in creating modern technologies, including genetic engineering, GPS, laser, transistor, microprocessor, radar, robotics, and of course internet.</p>
<p>In sciences, Harvard and Stanford are basically tied. Harvard has most NAS members (167) among U.S. universities, while Stanford has 2nd most NAS members (128). But in 2009 US NEWS graduate school ranking, Stanford beats Harvard in biology, chemistry, physics, computer science, and geology, and is tied with Harvard in math. So Stanford seems to have an edge now, at least according to the survey on academic peers. Of course, US News is not a gold standard. But I think it is fair to say Stanford is not worse than Harvard in sciences. </p>
<p>According to US News, in social science, Harvard is #1 in political science, #3 in economics, #5 in psycology, and #8 in sociology, while Stanford is #2 in politics, #3 in economics, # 1 in psycology, and #6 in sociology. Again, Stanford seems to have a tiny edge. So it is fair to say Stanford is not worse than Harvard in social sciences.</p>
<p>For humanities, according to US News, Harvard is #1 in English, #4 in history, while Stanford is #4 in English, and #4 in history. The edge may goes to Haravrd, but not by much. Right?</p>
<p>For professional schools, Harvard is #1 in business, #2 in law, #1 in medicine, and #5 in education, while Stanford is #1 in business, #2 in law, #8 in medicine, and #1 in education. Apparently, They are tied up. I admit Harvard has a big advantage in medical science. So it is fair to say Harvard is #1 in professional schools. But Stanford is a very close #2, perhaps the only one that can dethrone Harvard. If you count engineering school as a professional school, then there is a strong argument to say Stanford is #1, and Harvard is #2.</p>
<p>Overall, I think it is fair to say Harvard and Stanford are about equal. They are top notched in many many fields. Harvard and Stanford are most well rounded universities in the world (along with Berkeley).</p>
<p>To me, HYPS should be replaced by HSBMCPY, with M=MIT, C=Caltech, P=Princeton, and Y=Yale.</p>
<p>Honestly, was there a need to double post your stanford fanboyism?</p>
<p>
[quote]
To me, HYPS should be replaced by HSBMCPY, with B=Berkeley, M=MIT, C=Caltech, P=Princeton, and Y=Yale.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ain't gonna happen. Get over it.</p>
<p>Your whole premise that Stanford equals Harvard is based on the U.S. News rankings, which do not amount to much. This "survey of academic peers", as you call it, were sent to heads of all doctoral degree granting programs in the U.S., and had a response rate of 21% for biology, 32% for chemistry and physics, and 33% for math. Isn't this response rate rather low? Are the heads of biology departments at Harvard, MIT, Princeton, and the like, the true peers of Harvard, really dutifully filling out these surveys from the U.S. News? Is the chair of biology at Louisiana State University really in a position to tell whether Harvard or Stanford has a better program? My Ph.D. advisor is a renowned scientist and a National Academy member, and he has taught at several leading institutions, including Stanford. So I have some insights into how he would rank biology programs. Among the top scientists, there is a pretty good consensus on where the epicenter of the universe is in biology research; it's in Cambridge, Massachusetts. That Stanford beats Harvard in biology rankings in the U.S. News merely confirms our suspicion that the rankings are worthless. Sorry. </p>
<p>Likewise, you say Stanford Law is equal to Harvard Law based on the U.S. News rankings. Of course!!! There's another piece of evidence that the rankings are flawed. Just look around. Which school has the most graduates on the Supreme Court and in the U.S. Senate? Which school has produced the most U.S. Presidential contenders? Most governors and U.S. attorney generals? Which school has dozens of novels written about just getting into it? Movies? Which school sends the most graduates to clerk for the Supreme Court? Which school graduates the largest number of faculty at the U.S. law schools? Which school graduates the largest number of attorneys at the top 10, top 50, and top 100 law firms in the U.S.? Which school publishes the most influential law journal in the U.S.? The answer to all of these questions is Harvard. #2 is Yale. Stanford sends a lot of graduates to work as patent law attorneys in the Silicon Valley, but that's about it. Harvard Law also outranks Stanford purely in terms of resources; it has a nearly 2 billion endowment, while Stanford is not quite 500 million. Yale has close to 700 million. Harvard Law also has the largest legal library in the world with 2 million volumes. Stanford doesn't even have half a million.</p>
<p>U.S. News also says Stanford Business is equal to Harvard Business!!! LOL!!!
Harvard Business grads rule the Wall Street and 25% of Fortune 500 CEOs who bothered to get an M.B.A. got it from a single school: Harvard. Harvard Business started the case method, which is emulated by every single school across the country, including Stanford, that buy the cases from Harvard. Harvard Business publishes the most influential business journal in the U.S. - The Harvard Business Review. Harvard Business has a 2.8 billion endowment and a beautiful campus of its own across the Charles River from Harvard Square. Stanford Business has a 835 million endowment and is talking about having its little plot of land on the Stanford campus. Harvard Business grads command the highest starting salary on the Wall Street. Stanford Business grads go work in the Silicon Valley, and hang out with the computer geeks. Hmmm.... Are they equal?</p>
<p>Where did Berkeley come from up there? :confused:</p>
<p>In medicine, Harvard has 32 Howard Hughes Investigators, while Stanford has 13. Harvard gets 1.2 billion in NIH money (not counting other sources) and Stanford gets 244 million. </p>
<p>Harvard undergrads have won 315 Rhodes, 239 Marshalls, and have won the Putnam competition 26 times, and finished in the top 5 52 times. Stanford won 84 Rhodes, 74 Marshalls, never won the Putnam, and came in the top 5 a total of 6 times. There were about 290 National Merit Scholars in Harvard's class, while there were 150 at Stanford. </p>
<p>Harvard Law sent 128 grads to clerk at the Supreme Court, while Yale sent 100, and Stanford sent 42. Harvard Law sent 166 grads to top 50 law firms in the U.S. last year, while Yale sent 46, and Stanford sent 57.</p>
<p>Harvard faculty and alums have won 75 Nobel Prizes (which is probably a gross underestimate) while Stanford has 37 to its credit.</p>
<p>The Wall Street Journal study indicated that 358 grads from Harvard College class of 2003 went to top graduate schools, while 181 from Stanford went to top grad schools. </p>
<p>Finally, let's review rankings that are based on objective data, rather than surveys: </p>
<p>"2007 Performance ranking of scientific papers for world universities" uses:
research productivity (20%) - papers in past 11 years, papers in past year
research impact (30%) - citations in past 11 year and in last 2 years, average citations
research excellence (50%) - highly cited papers, articles in high impact journals, etc.</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>Johns Hopkins</li>
<li>Stanford</li>
<li>Berkeley</li>
<li>Columbia</li>
<li>MIT</li>
<li>Penn</li>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>Duke</li>
<li>Cornell</li>
<li>Chicago</li>
<li>Princeton</li>
</ol>
<p>Here Stanford comes in only at #4.</p>