<p>I plan on majoring in some type of engineering with a possible double major in something else like history or psychology. I really like the Stanford campus but I also like Cornell's campus and Penn has a lot of social/cultural opportunities in the city. I'm looking for a school with some degree of academic flexibility among divisions and a place where professors pay attention to undergraduate courses. All three will cost about the same to attend.</p>
<p>Thoughts?</p>
<p>Stanford definitely beats Penn and Cornell with respect to engineering, and it also has a highly reputable Arts & Humanities department (very good for Psych from what I understand). I am in a very similar situation (Duke vs. Dartmouth vs. Penn vs. Stanford) and am pretty much undecided about my career/major path, but I am pretty much 95% committed to Stanford. I feel like the school has so much to offer in a wide range of disciplines. Also, the quarter system appeals to me (more wide range of classes, etc.) and Palo Alto’s weather beats Philly and Ithaca any day… haha.</p>
<p>That said, you can’t really go wrong, they are all great schools.</p>
<p>Philly is definitely a vibrant city. While Stanford is in its own ‘bubble’ and not integrated into a city like Penn, the Bay Area is easily one of the most culturally rich/diverse places in the country. San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose, Silicon Valley, the ocean, the Santa Cruz mountains, wine country - there’s a lot to offer. Weekend getaways to Tahoe or Yosemite are also a nice perk to living in the Bay Area.</p>
<p>If you’re looking for academic flexibility, Stanford is your best bet. All of Stanford’s departments are ranked in the top 5; no major is selective, and you can switch in and out of majors or schools with ease (it’s usually as simple as going online and dropping your major on Axess, then adding your new one). Of course, the graduate schools are just that - graduate, so while you can take classes at the med/business/law/education schools, you can’t get a degree from them as an undergrad. Engineering, earth sciences, and humanities & sciences are all open to undergrads, and you’re free to switch your major as many times as you want. You have the comfort of knowing that no matter what you switch to, you’ll be in a top-5 department with the best professors, peers, facilities, and resources.</p>
<p>Regarding professors’ attention to undergraduate education, most profs are willing to take on an undergraduate for research, given that you’re prepared in the subject (and often even if you aren’t - on-the-job mentorship during research isn’t uncommon). You can do independent study for 1-4 credits with a professor, wherein you study/research a specific topic (this is Stanford’s equivalent to the Oxford tutorial). More than 200 introductory seminars are offered each year (cap of 15, average class size of 10), and 75% of Stanford’s courses have fewer than 15 students; only 2% are over 120. You’re also free to take almost any graduate-level course you want (except in the professional schools, which have restricted classes that undergrads can take), and most students do before graduating. These courses are mostly discussion-based seminars wherein most of your grade is based on class participation/reading, some kind of writing or project, and no exams.</p>
<p>All three are great choices for you - they all have great academic breadth and depth, and their locations have different strengths. But of the three, Stanford definitely has the most academic breadth/depth, the most flexibility in switching majors and schools, and the most undergrad focus. The SF Bay Area is a nice cross between Philly and Ithaca - lots of natural landscape against culturally rich cities. As you can probably tell, I’m a big fan of the Bay Area, and IMO it even beats NYC which lacks a natural landscape. Of course, if you’re looking purely at city culture, I’d say NYC wins, but for the mix of nature+culture, the Bay Area can’t be beat.</p>
<p>Other inputs:</p>
<p>1) the weather in the Bay Area makes is easy to do outdoors things most of the year, especially if you don’t mind some rain in the winter. </p>
<p>2) if you want to add a Masters Degree, I believe you can do that in one year at Stanford. Not sure about Penn and Cornell, but worth looking into.</p>
<p>3) Silicon Valley connections - these can be invaluable for internships, venture capital/entrepreneurship opportunities, interesting speakers (Mark Zuckerberg came in last year to talk to the intro comp sci class, for example) and faculty with lots of start-up experience if that’s your interest.</p>
<p>
Not sure this is relevant. All three are very strong universities. I challenge any undergraduate to point out the differences between a top 5 and top 10 art history program - and also why that difference would matter to the 95% of art history majors who don’t become art historians. </p>
<p>
Standard operating procedure for a top university.</p>
<p>
Stanford is likely to have the strongest program of any that the three share, winning the depth competition. Cornell has by far the most breadth, however, followed by Penn. In terms of the number of courses per semester, it’s Penn (2600), Cornell (2000), and Stanford (1600). Although their strengths vary a bit, all three have very few weaknesses.</p>
<p>
How are you measuring that? On a purely numerical basis, the [url=<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/14046035-post8.html]ratio[/url”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/14046035-post8.html]ratio[/url</a>] of undergrads to grad students in arts & sciences and engineering is better at Cornell and Penn. I am skeptical that, with the exceptions of Dartmouth and maybe Brown, any top university focuses a lot more on undergrads than another. </p>
<p>I recommend focusing on the major differences between the three:</p>
<p>(1) Size
(2) Location
(3) Weather
(4) Academic schedule and fit (i.e. quarters vs. semesters, availability of relevant majors)
(5) Overall “feel”</p>
<p>Rank each university from #1 to #3 in each of these categories and tally up the results. That should give you an idea of which you like best. </p>
<p>In the meantime, I strongly encourage you to visit all three, preferably with an overnight visit on campus if possible.</p>
<p>Ok, first of all – no matter what you choose, you won’t have made a wrong choice. All three are excellent universities.</p>
<p>As you probably know, Stanford is ranked higher than the other two (both as a university and an engineering school). Penn is probably ranked a bit above Cornell as a University, but Cornell considerably higher than Penn as an Engineering School. Having said this, all three schools are in the very top tier of Elite Universities, and from a practical point of view – meaning intellect of student body, qualify of education, and job opportunities, there is probably very little difference in any of these schools.</p>
<p>All three are major universities with courses of study in many fields. Certainly at Cornell (and presumably at the other three) you can take courses in the University outside of Engineering. In all three the professors teach all or almost all courses (especially as an upper classman). At any school you go to the professors by and large care and are accessable.</p>
<p>In your case, unless you go with Stanford purely on reputation, it comes down to intangibles. but as I say, there is no wrong choice here.</p>
<p>thanks for the input y’all :)</p>
<p>Stanford is definitely the most academically flexible - and with SF so close by its hardly a cultural wasteland. I think its the easy choice among these three for your needs.</p>
<p>
I dunno…Stanford is attached to a high end shopping mall. 
[Stanford</a> Shopping Center - Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Simon Malls](<a href=“http://www.simon.com/mall/landing/841/]Stanford”>http://www.simon.com/mall/landing/841/)</p>
<p>
Not in terms of the breadth and depth of courses available to the average undergrad. Penn’s longstanding “One University” policy encourages all undergrads to take courses in all of the undergrad schools (College, Engineering, Wharton, Nursing) as well as in most of the grad and professional schools (e.g., Design; Education; Social Policy and Practice; Annenberg School for Communication–home of FactCheck.org; and even the Law School, which runs ads each semester in The Daily Pennsylvanian encouraging undergrads to take courses there). And all of this without the need for any special dispensation. There really is no other university that gives undergrads more “academic flexibility among divisions,” as the OP put it.</p>
<p>Stanford hands down haha</p>
<p>I would choose Stanford; it’s in a great location (I’m from the Bay Area haha, there’s TONS of engineering job opportunities & it’s really diverse), plus Stanford beats Cornell & Penn in engineering.</p>
<p>Another vote for Stanford.</p>
<p>45 Percenter - but for someone looking to major in both arts/humanities and engineering Penn is not flexible at all. In fact “one University” was created to address this issue - but its more of a bandaid. Anyway hands down Stanford in my opinion.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Penn’s “One University” policy has been around since at least the early 1970s, and is one of Penn’s hallmarks. It’s hardly a “bandaid.” It’s a very real and vigorous policy, that allows undergrads complete, unfettered freedom to take courses in most of Penn’s schools, undergrad and grad–including, as I said, the law school. I’m not sure you quite understand what it is.</p>
<p>And you’re saying that an undergard in Stanford’s engineering school can automatically pursue a full-blown liberal arts major (e.g., English, Philosophy, etc.)–and have it called a major–in addition to his/her engineering program without any other special dispensation? That’s not the way I read it:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>[Double</a> Majors and Secondary Majors | Undergraduate Academic Life](<a href=“http://www.stanford.edu/dept/undergrad/cgi-bin/drupal_ual/OO_double_majors_DoubleSecondary.html]Double”>http://www.stanford.edu/dept/undergrad/cgi-bin/drupal_ual/OO_double_majors_DoubleSecondary.html)</p>
<p>Again, Penn undergrads have the unfettered freedom to take courses in a wider variety of schools–both undergrad and grad–than do undergrads at virtually any other top university, including Stanford.</p>
<p>warblersrule,</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think it is relevant. For one, it’s not as though all or most of the departments at Penn or Cornell are even in the top 10.</p>
<p>More importantly, this whole “there’s no difference between the top 5 and top 10 because the difference in rank is small” is misleading. There can be and often are large differences - but ranks flatten those differences. Often, there are a few schools that are just behemoths in a given subject, and there’s a steep dropoff after that in faculty quality, facilities, funding, resources, etc. That’s not to say that these departments aren’t also great, as they definitely are, but to imply that there’s no difference in quality doesn’t make sense.</p>
<p>This may not be the case in art history, as it varies significantly by field, but it usually is the case. Try [url= <a href=“http://academic.research.microsoft.com/]this[/url”>http://academic.research.microsoft.com/]this[/url</a>], which gives a more quantitative, though simplistic, look at academic research, which is very highly correlated with other said factors. That database isn’t very good for the humanities and social sciences (though it’s improving), but it’s great for STEM fields.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I disagree. I know of several (including Harvard) that are far less flexible in allowing students to take grad-level classes, e.g. by requiring the professor’s permission, or by excluding courses in undergrads’ online enrollment portals, etc.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>When I said “breadth and depth,” I meant breadth and depth within that breadth, though I can see why you would interpret those separately.</p>
<p>Of course, if you count hotel management, agriculture, nursing, veterinary medicine, etc. then I concede that they have greater breadth (measured alone), but I’ll add that with that view there are a whole host of universities - mostly public - that outstrip schools like Berkeley, Stanford, Harvard, Cornell, Penn, Columbia, etc. in their breadth. Yet these are never mentioned when discussing breadth+depth, indicating that people (at least on CC) interpret them together, not as separate measures.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Not sure about Penn and Cornell, but that 1600 at Stanford includes only the courses that undergrads chose to take in a given term. That understates the vast array of grad-level courses that are available to undergrads to take. Also, Stanford’s on the quarter system, so it has 3 sets of courses in an academic year.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There are many ways to measure undergrad focus (class sizes, proportions of class size ranges that the average student will take, student:faculty ratio, funding for undergrads, spending per student, etc.). The ratio of undergrads:grads is not one of them. By your logic, Berkeley is far more undergrad-focused than almost any top private, since its ratio is 2.5:1.</p>
<p>45 Percenter,</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think you’re interpreting what the OP meant differently. I interpreted it not as being able to take courses in different academic divisions (obviously, Penn or Cornell won’t bar students from taking classes in different divisions), but in being able to change your department or school without difficulty. Stanford gives students complete freedom in changing that (with the exception of the graduate schools, which you can only take classes in, as said). I’m not sure how easy that is at Penn or Cornell, so perhaps you could shed some light on that.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes, that’s exactly the case at Stanford. If you want to do engineering + liberal arts, you can, though it requires some careful planning, and just a few months ago the university GERs were reduced to allow this to happen even more easily (mainly for engineering majors, which are very unit-intensive; for others, this never required very careful planning early on). CS+English seems to be oddly common at Stanford, probably because they’re two of the most popular majors and appeal to different sensibilities for a given student. You can choose to double major and do a dual BA and BS (which requires an additional 45 units), or you can do the BAS degree. Of course, with the multitude of [url= <a href=“http://academic.research.microsoft.com/RankList?entitytype=7&topdomainid=1&subdomainid=0&last=0]interdisciplinary[/url”>http://academic.research.microsoft.com/RankList?entitytype=7&topdomainid=1&subdomainid=0&last=0]interdisciplinary[/url</a>] study [url= <a href=“http://stanford.edu/academics/programs.html]programs[/url”>http://stanford.edu/academics/programs.html]programs[/url</a>], the option to individually design majors, the option to designate a secondary major (which gets around the requirement of non-overlapping courses), and the option to coterm in a different department and work toward a master’s while you’re finishing your bachelor’s, double-majoring is often unnecessary.</p>
<p>^ If Stanford allows an undergrad to pursue double majors in a liberal arts field (e.g., English) and an engineering field while pursuing only a single bachelor’s degree (which, after further research on the Stanford web site, I see is actually the case :)), than that certainly does provide more flexibility in terms of double majoring than provided by Penn and most other top schools. At Penn, an undergrad would have to pursue dual degrees from both the engineering school and the Collge of Arts and Sciences to pursue both an official engineering major and an official liberal arts major. Not that it’s that difficult to do–hundreds of Penn undergrads do just that every year and graduating with dual degrees is quite common.</p>
<p>Where Penn does have greater academic flexibility than virtually any other top university, however, is the ease with which undergrads can take classes not only in the other undergrad schools, but also in most of the grad and professional schools. For example, unless I’m mistaken, Stanford undergrads can’t just sign up for classes in Stanford’s law school or business school without some sort of special dispensation. At Penn, undergrads are strongly encouraged to do that (in Penn’s grad/professional schools, not Stanford’s :p), as they are in other Penn professional/grad schools for which Stanford doesn’t have an equivalent (Annenberg School for Communication, School of Design, School of Social Policy and Practice, Nursing, etc.). So from THAT perspective, and not cross-school double majoring (which I agree with you after rereading the intial post is what the OP was asking about), Penn offers significantly more academic flexibility.</p>
<p>Yes, you’re definitely right that Penn has more graduate schools in areas that Stanford doesn’t, and that gives more flexibility. Stanford allows undergrads to take a set of courses in the law/business/med/education schools, though not all are open to undergrads - I’m not sure if that counts as special dispensation, as I assume Penn doesn’t open up all its professional school classes to undergrads (though it may offer undergrads more courses than Stanford does). While Stanford doesn’t have an individual school set up for communication, its comm department was ranked 1-3 by the NRC (only a hair different from Annenberg, 1-5). Its design program is technically an institute, but it goes by the “d.school,” and functions like the other graduate schools in terms of offerings for undergrads. Stanford doesn’t have social work, nursing, or dental medicine, and only limited offerings in veterinary medicine.</p>