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<p>LOL, this is the second time this afternoon that I have to point out the myth about grade inflation circulating on collegeconfidential: the median GPA at Swarthmore nowadays is about 3.53, not much different from Stanford and higher than Harvard’s.</p>
<p>But yes, I do very much agree with that one’s undergrad performance is ultimately much more important.</p>
<p>LACs have artificial grade deflation. doesn’t intrinsically mean its any harder.
i agree with the above lengthy post by phantasmagoric</p>
<p>Also, there is no doubt that your performance in medical school is what determines residency, but if you go to a less academic school, even slightly less, your work ethic, study skills, etc., will simply not be the same. (i’m not saying LACs are less academic. i’m saying something like Tulane vs. Stanford)</p>
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I think calling it arrogance is about right. I would even call it sad.</p>
<p>Harvard
Stanford
Penn
Duke
Northwestern</p>
<p>Ranked in order of quality of education/prestige (the usual crap students look for). For school spirit, I think Duke and Northwestern is the most enthusiastic. I also know that UPenn has the number one business school (Wharton), and Northwestern has the number one Journalism school. Stanford is probably the strongest out of all of them in Engineering, and it probably has one of the best (if not the best) programs in Psychology and Political Science. Harvard is just a flat out number one school. Duke is also great, though not the strongest, it still is an amazing university. And if you don’t want cutthroat competition, you should definitely settle for Duke or Northwestern.</p>
<p>Hi Fallenchemist I’m so glad you found us. I was hoping for some of your words of wisdom.</p>
<p>“Arrogance” that about sums it up. Once again for Hogwarts who was originally asking the questions, my information is just that…information that I have been given over the course of the past few years from doctors themselves. If you pre-med students have so much wisdom and experience then good luck…</p>
<p>Calvin: Wharton is not ranked number one for business anymore its actually Notre Dame’s Mendoza School of Business, with UVA as second and MIT as third. Wharton comes in 4th. I was surprised too!</p>
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<p>You only say that because I stated it bluntly, and perhaps “disdain” was a bit strong–the point is that students at Stanford et al are going to be going for the best med schools, and would probably find Tulane to be not quite what they would want and show disinterest. That’s legitimate; Tulane’s med school is either unranked or doesn’t break the top 50 (which, if you were looking at four-year colleges, it’d be like a college not breaking the top 1000; there are some 2400 four-year colleges and just over 100 med schools). I don’t subscribe to rankings, but it is telling when a school or program is unranked completely, something which would drive away even students at Podunk State. Students at Stanford et al are to Tulane’s med school as almost every person on CC is to junior college; it’s not a bad option, but for many students, they want more, and are going to be shooting for the stars.</p>
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<p>What ranking are you referring to? It’s hard to find rankings where Harvard Business doesn’t come out at the top. (In US News, for example, I think Stanford and Harvard are tied for first in b-schools.)</p>
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Now the arrogance gets to the point where he has to tell me why I say what I say. Quite incredible. Also perhaps the words you use do actually mean something, and they are all we have to go by. Can your nose get any higher in the air?</p>
<p>As far as the medical school being unranked, USNWR says “Unranked: the school did not supply enough information to U.S. News to calculate a ranking.” So it means nothing. Perhaps they chose not to participate. Not everyone believes in the holy ranking system. Or perhaps in Tulane’s case there were questions on the survey that could not be accurately answered post-Katrina. This is certainly true of the undergraduate school. A significant part of the rankings there are 6 year graduation rates, but there is no such number for Tulane that is meaningful because Katrina was 5 years ago and of course this has severely affected the numbers. But USNWR refuses to make adjustments for this.</p>
<p>For a Stanford guy your research and conclusions are sloppy and uninformed. Besides, the OP wasn’t asking about med schools. He was asking about pre-med programs and this is quite independent from the quality of the medical school a university might have, or if they have one at all. Finally, very few people would call 150 or so med schools “just over 100”. Interesting try to spin that.</p>
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<p>You’re reading too much into my post; please stop assuming the worst. </p>
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<p>Didn’t you just imply that I shouldn’t infer the intent of what you say? And then you do it to me? I won’t point out the obvious discrepancy here.</p>
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<p>I could say the same of you, right now. FWIW, I’m not even pre-med— I’m simply telling you HOW students, not just at Stanford but elsewhere as well, tend to perceive lower-ranked medical schools. By the way, try to adhere to the terms of service on CC re: courtesy. Attack the argument, not the person.</p>
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<p>Nor do I—which I admitted, but added that it is telling when a program is completely unranked. That’s a red flag, at the very least.</p>
<p>Just a side note, but all your comments about Katrina are irrelevant here. The cause of where and why it’s ranked is secondary to whether students want to attend at all. Knowing the cause of why it doesn’t measure up to strong medical schools doesn’t make a student think, “Oh, well, in that case, I think that makes me want to go there more.”</p>
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<p>This coming from someone who has intentionally misinterpreted my posts (or simply not read the thread), and who just spent a paragraph describing a bunch of ‘hunches’ about why Tulane performs poorly in medical school rankings, without bothering to do any research or give citations? That’s rich.</p>
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<p>I know he wasn’t. Have you read the entire thread? I was responding to another reply to the OP.</p>
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<p>Again, you assume the worst for your own ends. Last I had read, there were some 116 medical schools, though that figure may have been old in the first place. And why you’re pointing this out, I don’t know; if the number is 150, placing outside the top 50—which it does in some rankings (google it), and doesn’t make the top 50 in US News—means that it’s akin to a four-year school not placing in the top 800. Do you feel any different toward 800 vs. 1000? I don’t. The argument is still the same. Being ranked outside the top 50 med schools is not like being ranked outside the top 50 for undergraduate; students, not just at very top schools, will often not bother applying to these, because it isn’t what they want. </p>
<p>Again, I’m simply giving you the facts of how students at top schools tend to perceive it. If you don’t believe me, check the medical school admissions statistics on their sites; you’ll find that students tend not to apply to lower-ranked med schools, and you’ll probably find that the representation of students from top universities is disproportionately low at said med schools. If you don’t like that reality, tough. Call everyone arrogant if you want (though the irony of that statement would be too much for me).</p>
<p>edit: Ah, based on your post history about Tulane, I can see why you’re so defensive here. Did you search the CC forums for Tulane just to see who might be badmouthing your favorite school? (There really are more rewarding endeavors in life, esp. given that you’re not convincing anyone with your watery arguments about Tulane.)</p>
<p>Given that 25-30% of Stanford pre-meds aren’t accepted to medical school anywhere, it seems a bit haughty (and unfeeling to their pre-med classmates) for posters to be whaling on medical schools with reputations falling short of the top tier. The top students at Tulane’s medical school will mostly land positions in very good residency programs.</p>
<p>Dad2, please read the above post. I’m not whaling on anything; I’m simply saying that’s what these pre-meds think. Don’t shoot the messenger. Look at the statistics. So what if a portion of them don’t get in? So what if the top students at Tulane med school do well? It’s irrelevant to the simple point: top students tend not to prefer it. It’s their fault if they choose not to apply to a lower-ranked med school for whatever reason (i.e. they aren’t ‘safe’ enough with their application choices), and end up getting in nowhere. Read into it whatever you want, call them haughty and narrow-minded, whatever. I’m just telling you how it is.</p>
<p>Palo Alto is not 1.3 hours by train from San Francisco. It’s an hour (or slightly less) and the trains run quite frequently (they’re comfortable, too). That may change with California’s state cutbacks, but for the moment it looks pretty good. When we visited last year, the trains were running every few minutes – admittedly, during the evening rush from Palo Alto to San Francisco. Unlike a lot of other regional trains, the rush hour goes both ways.</p>
<p>Let’s see, you tell me why I say what I say, but if I disagree about your conclusion there I am guilty of the same thing? I am going strictly by what you said. There is no inference or logical jump. You tried to ascribe motives to my statements with zero basis for doing so.</p>
<p>You were the one that talked about how Stanford students “disdained” lower ranked schools. That sounds pretty snobby to me. Maybe not to others, but I bet it does. I have no idea what I said that sounds arrogant, unless you consider disagreeing with you as arrogant.</p>
<p>Saying that not reporting something because there is no data is a red flag is a bit bizarre, but if you think it is you are entitled to your opinion. It is even more bizarre to me, at least, to say that knowing there might be a perfectly good reason for it is irrelevant.</p>
<p>I wasn’t trying to do any research or make categorical statements about why Tulane didn’t report data, I clearly stated my possible cause as just that, possible. That is what the word “perhaps” means. Look it up. You were the one that said it was unranked and didn’t say what that meant, only strongly implying that it must mean they are very inferior, at least to Stanford students. BTW, Tulane med has had a few students that did their undergrad at Stanford over the last few years. Guess they must have been the marginal rejects that got into Stanford on bribes.</p>
<p>USNWR says right at the top of their list it is 146, Wiki says 153. Didn’t take much to find that out.</p>
<p>Personally, I think it is rather amazing that you presume to speak for all pre-meds. Of course the very best want to go the the very best med schools. And the next tier know they will go to the next tier of med schools, and so on and so forth. That isn’t exactly a revelation.</p>
<p>It’s very sad to see that someone, who is not a premed major, is speaking on behalf of all the Stanford students who are. I’m not surprised in the least, I was just hoping as this thread progressed that you were truly coming from a position of strength and experience. Everyone else who has given their point of view has done so with the intent to be helpful and because they have done their homework. If you’re not a premed student then how can you make these assumptions? Thats unfair to individuals who are really looking for answers and trusting that those who write on this thread are reputable.</p>
<p>Business week ranks ND as the number #1 Undergraduate Business school for 2010</p>
<p>thanks everyone for your input, but i kind of want to steer away from all of the arguments. i have a new question: i’ve always really wanted to go to a great university like stanford… but now i’m hearing that i should go to a weaker school so i can get better admission chances at medical school? i mean i am smart (really not trying to sound ******-y), but i’m not RIDICULOUSLY smart like i’m sure tons of kids are at stanford or duke or northwestern. so does that mean that i won’t survive there and won’t get into medical school? because although i really, really, really want to go to a great pre-medical school, i will consider going to a weaker pre-med if it means that i will get into medical school. if i could go to duke or something AND get into med then that’d be amazing, but apparently that’s not the case? i don’t know. help please! (without fighting)</p>
<p>Dungareedoll, </p>
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<p>If you read my post, I told you that it comes from the data reported by schools like Stanford on med school admissions, the med schools students most commonly apply to and attend. These aren’t assumptions. They’re just facts about what happens. I’ve done my homework–time for you to do yours.</p>
<p>Notice, also, Dungareedoll, that I explicitly said I wasn’t trying to put you out by making contrary statements, and even wholeheartedly agreed with your intent to mention Tulane. But you made a baseless assumption about Stanford being more competitive–“The competition is just tougher”–(really doesn’t make sense, since you aren’t a student here) and thus other options could be better if you want to go to med school. I asked you about your reasoning, and you replied with a simple ‘common sense,’ which isn’t a valid argument. Then you followed it up with a bunch of statements in defense of Tulane, most of which I wasn’t even disputing.</p>
<p>fallenchemist,</p>
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<p>It’s like you didn’t even read my post–I’m not speaking on their behalf, but reporting to you what they tend to do, based on data from Stanford.</p>
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<p>And I followed that up with the admission that it might not have been the right word–instead, they show disinterest (see post #27).</p>
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<p>You are so quick to defend Tulane that you are actually inferring your *own *assumptions–methinks thou dost protest too much. The reason I didn’t say what it meant? Because it doesn’t matter whether it’s indicative of actual quality. I was just making the point that students at top schools, like Stanford, tend to apply to top med schools (with the implication being that perhaps they apply to Tulane less frequently because it’s unranked). The end–there’s no meaning to be inferred beyond that. Don’t worry, I personally am not making judgments about Tulane, you or your kid’s choice of college (as much as you seem to want to think).</p>
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<p>…except for your posting history, where you seem to post in other schools’ forums whenever Tulane is mentioned, and you subsequently ‘come to its rescue.’ (When Berkeley fanatics do this, people tend to reply with, “Stop ■■■■■■■■ for your school.”)</p>
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<p>Well, it raises a red flag, because students wonder why the data wouldn’t be reported. They think, “are they hiding something?” People have the same line of thought about many schools, like Harvard, that don’t put out a common data set.</p>
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<p>Are these the jibes that you’re resorting to now?</p>
<p>Honestly, between you, Dungareedoll, and Dad2, it’s getting really tiresome to hear all you parents shamelessly promoting your schools on other forums (though Dungareedoll, I know, isn’t tied to one right now). There’s really no getting through to you, so if you’re done completely derailing yet another thread in favor of your school, we can let the topic turn back to the schools the OP asked about.</p>
<p>Sorry about all that HogwartsHopeful–back to what you were saying. I think it’s really far off to say that you would be at a disadvantage in med-school admissions if you went to Stanford.</p>
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<p>Definitely not! Stanford, as well as the others, would not admit you if they didn’t believe you could survive. It’s not in your best interest, and it isn’t in theirs, either. The majority of Stanford students who apply to med school get in. Those who don’t most likely didn’t choose wisely enough with the colleges they applied to–in other words, they didn’t apply to enough ‘safe’ schools (though there isn’t much of a concept of a ‘safety’ in med school admissions). That’s why looking at % admitted to at least one med school doesn’t make sense; I’m confident that, for example, the 10% of Harvard students that don’t get into any med school probably would have gotten in somewhere, if they picked the right ones. I’m equally confident that that’s true of all the schools you’re looking at.</p>
<p>The point to be made here, though, is that there are rigorous requirements for getting into med school, and you’re more likely to be successful if you’re offered more opportunities. That’s why the very top schools tend to do well in grad/professional school admissions. They offer their undergrads tons of research opportunities; attractive majors like Human Biology for pre-meds (not to mention, “weaker” schools, as you say, are probably going to be more strict about changing your major, whereas at the schools in the thread title, that isn’t a problem–you can switch as much as you want); excellent lab facilities; extensive library holdings; funding for doing your own research (Stanford spends more than any university just on undergraduate research each year); connections to off-campus opportunities (e.g. Stanford has internship program connections in Asia, for many different kinds of subjects); and so on. This isn’t to say that not going to a very top school will doom you for med school admissions (undergrads elsewhere do well too), but that being furnished with more ‘stuff’ that’s relevant to med school admission committees increases your likelihood of getting in.</p>
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<p>That definitely is the case. Most important for you–which, I think, is common advice given to students worrying about med school before even getting into undergrad–is to choose the school that’s best for you, because that’s where you’re going to flourish. Forcing yourself to go to a school that you don’t think works for but will be better for med school could set you up for failure.</p>
<p>Also, try to keep in mind–no matter how strong your convictions are about med school, a lot of intended pre-meds take different routes than they expected, and are extremely happy with their choices. The idea now is to not worry about med school (unless you go for something like HPME)–think most about the schools where you feel (here it comes) the “fit.”</p>
<p>I think you are the only one that derailed things, actually. In point of fact, BTW, you only modified the “disdain” comment after we commented on the arrogance of it. So I guess we were right that it was quite arrogant as originally stated. Still the fact that some Stanford students do end up at med schools that are not in the top 10 or 20 must mean they are not all disinterested.</p>
<p>Hogwarts - Go to the school that fits you best, period. Only you know what that means. If you want the most prestigious school for the sake of prestige, do that. (I am not saying you do, just saying if). If you want a school with big time sports, better weather, big Greek life, whatever. Only you can balance out these factors. It isn’t all about academics. Yes, it takes intellectual ability to do well in school, especially the schools you mention. But the vast majority of time you won’t get in if you don’t have that ability. Once you are in, it really is more about hard work, discipline, working with profs and fellow students to make sure you are staying on track to understand the material and do well on tests and papers, etc. What I am saying is I suggest you take a completely different approach to this and focus more on what school excites you the most for whatever reason. That’s where you are most likely to do best because you will be happiest.</p>
<p>Phantamorgic all I can say is good luck in life…</p>
<p>Hogwarts: I feel bad and think you kinda got the wrong impression about schools other than the top ten in the US. As you begin this journey speak to other schools and see what they have to offer. Call the admission counselors and ask them questions like, "Why should I consider a school like ‘you’ over a school like Stanford? I think you will find what they can offer you very surprising. Remember to also call schools like Stanford, Duke, Harvard and ask the same questions. Now you can compare them. Then of course visit the schools and see if they feel like a “fit” for you. My S started this process only wanting a large school. The college counselor that we hired very nicely recommended that we see a few small schools, like Richmond, Holy Cross, and Colgate. We went to them very reluctant. We really thought schools of that size (2800) could never have the facilities that one needs. We were so wrong. As a matter of fact the small schools have turned out to be the most intriguing of them all. The size is still a problem for my S because we come from a high school of the same basic size, and he feels its too small. But the facilities, internerships and overall “personal attention” you receive from the professors is second to known. Here in the NE we have some of the top LAC’s in the country. I have spoken to so many kids and they all praise their schools for their ability to turn out top students that are wanted by top graduate programs, law schools, and med schools. Holy Cross and Richmond have an 85% acceptance rate into Med School. Thats higher then many of the the top 10 national universities. And those kids are getting into Harvard, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Baylor, Duke Med schools. No one will look down on you in Med school because you came from a small LAC. Like I mentioned a very good friend of the family just got into Duke, Baylor, Pittsburg for his MD/PhD. (He chose Duke and by the way this program is one of the most competitive programs because its all for free, since it takes 10+ years to achieve the degree. The schools are extremely selective since they are footing the bill) In any case, he came from Stony Brook State University and for what its worth the incoming class at Duke is comprised of approx. 50% public school kids. The other 50% are LAC and a few from the Ivies and/or big ten. (Some more food for thought since you haven’t even mentioned any of the public institutions.) </p>
<p>So there is no shame in where you go. If you’re truly smart then you will follow your heart and go to the school that will best accomodate your needs, making you the best you can be. Once you’re the best, nothing or no one can stop you from being successful. Of course it nice to have a Stanford certificate, it certainly will open lots of doors but that’s it, after that its your hard work ethic, ability to communicate and desire to succeed that will take you places. Lets face it, only a small portion of the countries population are going to the top 10. Yet there are many more successful people out there who have done equally well for themselves. Why because they ‘wanted success’. The name will only take you so far. This I know from experience.</p>
<p>Hogwarts: Check out this thread here on CC —Med School Admissions: GPAs weighed same for all undergraduates at all universities? </p>
<p>It speaks to all the big Ivies and Top 10 schools and whether it really makes a difference where you go for undergrad… I think you will find it interesting.</p>