<p>bluedevilmike: I'm from the East originally and so am thoroughly indoctrinated in the mythology of HYP. After spending some years on the West Coast, where I am now, I have had to (grudgingly) add Stanford to the list. To me, Duke is the new kid on the block, still better known as a Basketball school. To me, Duke is USC but on the East Coast.</p>
<p>starbucksguy: Agree. If your goal is to be an investment banker in NYC, Duke (or Princeton, or Harvard or Yale) is the better choice.</p>
<p>Dude, comparing us to USC is a huge insult to Duke. Our sports are MUCH better than theirs! :p</p>
<p>not to mention academics</p>
<p>collegebound35 - i know you said you can't make it to blue devils days, but if you want to make the best choice for you, you need to personally visit both schools (even if it's not on Blue Devil Days) if there is any possible way for you to do so. Otherwise, you will really never know what's the best choice for you.</p>
<p>bluedevilmike: Funny!</p>
<p>ashes: It was sarcasm. But don't dis USC. In SoCal, its Biz program and alumni network are influential and helpful to grads. Much like the Duke network in NYC. In film, it's #1 or #2 nationwide. Engineering program coming on strong.</p>
<p>I have to say, the more I read about USC, the more I am convinced that it will soon emerge - especially in the health sciences - into the upper tier of schools. They have a solid groundwork, the money to pull it off, and legitimate goals. Personally, I expect to see their medical school in the top 15 or 20 within ten years.</p>
<p>starbucksguy,</p>
<p>You are still in high school. How do you know they got "fine series in corporate finance, investments, financial engineering, and accounting"?? By looking at their website? Since it's probably safe to assume courses are fine at Duke, let me put it this way: how do you know they are so fine that one should choose Duke over Stanford even though Stanford's econ program is widely considered as one of the top-5 programs?</p>
<p>
[quote]
...Stanford does not have any depth in these offerings.
[/quote]
<a href="http://www.stanford.edu/dept/registrar/bulletin/bulletin05-06/pdf/Economics.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.stanford.edu/dept/registrar/bulletin/bulletin05-06/pdf/Economics.pdf</a>
<a href="http://www.stanford.edu/dept/MSandE/academics/courses-web.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.stanford.edu/dept/MSandE/academics/courses-web.html</a></p>
<p>Looks like lots of depth to me. FYI: both departments are top-5 programs. Oh, I actually took a course in that department instead of just looking at the department's website. </p>
<p>
[quote]
IF you want to work in the east, Duke is a better name
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I grew up in Asia and lived in New England, Chicago, and St. Louis before I came to California; my experience tells me Stanford has better name anywhere. That answers bluedevilmike's question. :)</p>
<p>Oh yea. Don't underestimate USC. In LA, tons of cars have their license plates with USC ALUMNI on them, much more so than UCLA even UCLA is a bigger school. LA has more millinonaires than anywhere in the US and I wouldn't be surprised that many of them have connections with USC. They do have, like you said, the money to pull it off.</p>
<p>Here's the thing, Sam.</p>
<p>In my experience, when you talk to Northeasterners, they don't take any non-Ivy school seriously. Stanford, Duke, even MIT.</p>
<p>When you talk to Californians, Stanford is clearly on par with HP, better than Y, and absurdly better than Duke or Penn. When you talk to Southerners, Duke is clearly on par with HYP, and better than Stanford and... Penn? Isn't that a public school? Hey, I hear UVa has a pretty good one.</p>
<p>If you take a quantitative analysis to it, US News seems to consider Penn the strongest of the three, especially if you omit the admissions differences (i.e. Stanford gets higher SAT scores coming in).</p>
<p>Because Asian people have more roots in CA - even if they don't actually live in CA - they tend to adopt that analysis.</p>
<p>My point? If I have one, it's this: HYP are probably stronger than the other three. Penn probably comes next, and then I'd argue there's a tossup between Stanford and Duke. Stanford has a reputation for attracting smarter kids in the first place, but they seem similarly prestigious - depending on where you are in the country - coming out.</p>
<p>"Because Asian people have more roots in CA - even if they don't actually live in CA - they tend to adopt that analysis."</p>
<p>First of all, Asian people have roots in Asia, not CA. Secondly, it seems odd to claim that they should "adopt that analysis" (e.g. should African-Americans favor Duke because of Southern roots?).</p>
<p>"In my experience, when you talk to Northeasterners, they don't take any non-Ivy school seriously. Stanford, Duke, even MIT."</p>
<p>No offense, but it sounds like you don't have nearly enough experience here.</p>
<p>"My point? If I have one, it's this: HYP are probably stronger than the other three. Penn probably comes next, and then I'd argue there's a tossup between Stanford and Duke. Stanford has a reputation for attracting smarter kids in the first place, but they seem similarly prestigious - depending on where you are in the country - coming out."</p>
<p>Not true, assuming that the above is referring to "reputation." Although Duke is a wonderful institution, it is simply not regarded as being in the same league as those others (excpet perhaps Penn) -- and that is true anywhere in the country except the South.</p>
<p>Having said that, there are two points: (1) Duke's reputation is improving. As recently as 10 years ago, its student body consisted largely of students who weren't accepted into Ivy League schools. Because of aggressive marketing and attracting a small body of extremely talented students through merit scholarships (who go on to become Putnam winners, Rhodes Scholars, etc), they've done a brilliant job of projecting a strong image. (2) Perhaps more importantly, who cares about reputation ... what's ultimately most important is where any given student fits in best.</p>
<p>I haven't heard Stanford of the east...but I have heard Harvard: The Chicago of the East:)</p>
<p>Regarding the northeasterners, I will certainly concede your point.</p>
<p>Regarding Asian communities, that was a botched phrasing on my part. I simply mean that a lot of the Asian-gossip I observe - being a Chinese person myself - tends to correspond with the California mentality I've noticed. My own personal theory is that California has a higher Asian population, and since gossip networks tend to run in families, this tends to transfer over.</p>
<p>HYP, in my mind, are clearly stronger than the other three. I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that Penn comes next. If you want to argue that Stanford then beats Duke, I think that's certainly a strong argument, especially if you incorporate the admissions differential (Stanford is harder to get into). Personally, I think that if you ignore that, the two schools are pretty similar.</p>
<p>Still, can't go too wrong in the top six, I suppose.</p>
<p>I read where USC had a 25% admit rate for the new incoming class. Watch out for the Trojans, they may catch you from behind.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If I have one, it's this: HYP are probably stronger than the other three. Penn probably comes next, and then I'd argue there's a tossup between Stanford and Duke. Stanford has a reputation for attracting smarter kids in the first place, but they seem similarly prestigious - depending on where you are in the country - coming out.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I am assuming you are talking about academic reputation in general, not investment/finance. You seem to have an oddly underrated view of Stanford.</p>
<p>First of all, check out the peer assessment score. That's the measure of reputation and to me, it seems to be in pretty good agreement with my experience (not yours somehow). Stanford's reputation is as good as Harvard and MIT.</p>
<p>Do you know that Penn, not long ago, was ranked like 15th or so? Penn, not
WashU, is the one that has made the highest leap since the US News ranking started. It's only this last couple years that it's been ranked higher than Stanford. Do you know there were huge threads about how Penn was overrated and how many were asking "how the heck Penn is ranked higher than Stanford?" on this board when that ranking was out? That was a surprise to many people.</p>
<p>Do you know when US News first came out, Stanford was ranked like 2nd? Stanford's graduate departments, by the way, have been solidly top-5 across the board. It's very difficult to find a department at Stanford that isn't placed in the top-10, if not top-5 (not only in science/engineering but also humanities/social sciences). </p>
<p>By the way, in Asia, Stanford's reputation is definitely greater than Duke/Penn.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stanford_University_people%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stanford_University_people</a> Stanford has a large number of famous alums.</p>
<p>Penn really does seem a bit overrated - however, I think Wharton is what pulls it up in the rankings. Spot #4 probably really belongs to Stanford (followed by Duke - of course).</p>
<p>"As recently as 10 years ago, its student body consisted largely of students who weren't accepted into Ivy League schools."</p>
<p>Not true. 20-25 years ago, maybe.</p>
<p>Oh my god. I'm sorry, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting really sick of this thread. Stanford is an amazing school. Duke is an amazing school. Regardless of which one may be slightly better than the other or equal or whatever, they are both REALLY AMAZING. If you go on an interview and you have either name printed on your transcript, prospective employers will be impressed. When you're looking at two schools of such caliber, what you REALLY need to do is visit both and see which one you "feel" yourself at the most - which one's a better fit for you personally. All of these arguments about rankings and whatnot only proves that the two really are quite similar in terms of prestige - if they weren't, people wouldn't feel a need to argue. Anyway, that's just my opinion - I know people who turned down Stanford in a heartbeat to come to Duke, and people who turned down Duke just as quickly to go to Stanford.</p>
<p>First off, peer assessment is, obviously, going to be the slowest measure to respond to changes in rankings.</p>
<p>Second, I'd see Penn's rise as a sign of strength, not of weakness.</p>
<p>Third, my argument would simply be this: If you look at the hallmarks of good education (small class size, high freshman retention), I'm guessing - and I haven't done the math here - that Penn beats Stanford pretty solidly. (This is based on the fact that USN has Penn and Stanford very even, and Stanford is much harder to get into.)</p>
<p>Fourth, the Asia thing - I hate to say it - doesn't matter unless you're intending to work in Asia. That's certainly less important than, say, if Penn's reputation is greater in NYC.</p>
<p>And whoa, we've gotten sidetracked. At least I have.</p>
<hr>
<p>And BCG:</p>
<p>Sorry about this. I know I'm obsessing a little bit over this nonsense, but I was fascinated (coming from CA) by the discrepancy in Stanford's reputation once I left the Bay Area - and it occurred to me that only a quantitative approach would really be objective. Having pored of the USN quantitative rankings, I think they leave a lot to be desired, but I also think they're too easily ignored by students who have a preconceived mindset in the first place.</p>
<p>bluedevilmike,</p>
<p>Hmm...you know what? USN actually places UPenn higher in "selectivity". UPenn has higher % (actually quite a bit higher) of freshmen in the top-10% of their HS class. Why does Stanford has relatively low number in this category? Well, maybe Stanford doesn't care as much about class rank; the school has lots of Division-1 athletes and most of them were probably decent students in HS but not in the top-10%. Even Stanford's SAT range is higher and admit rate is lower and even we all know for regular applicant (non-athletes), Stanford is harder to get into, USN's formula gives you an unexpected result. It's about how much weight USN gives it. If I were the USN editor, I could give even more weight to class rank and Berkeley would be higher than Harvard in selectivity! ;) Yes, it's "quantitative" but it's pretty subjective. It's just like BCS bowl formula; LOL! Just because it looks quantitative, calculated by computer and has "computer rank", doesn't mean it's scientific. Someone has to subjectively decide how much weight should be given to each factor (e.g. why does "faculty resource" contribute 20%, not 12.5% or 30%? It's arbitrary) and what factors matter or not (why does the difference betwen actual and predicted grad rate matter? How is it "predicted" anyway?).</p>
<p>Hi Sam,</p>
<p>BCG is right. This is silly. I'm still interested. Care to conduct the rest of this via PM?</p>