<p>I'm a junior in an international HS right now, and I'm looking at four massive reaches and trying to narrow those down to 2 or 3 maximum. I'm attracted to all four of these schools - I'll probably be applying major undecided, but right now I'm gravitating towards humanities subjects like philosophy, political science, etc.</p>
<p>Stanford has been a dream of mine since I went there for summer camp, but I haven't been doing a lot of research recently on the school. It's very beautiful, and I feel that the atmosphere there is very welcoming and warm - I think it speaks quite a lot about the support system at the school!</p>
<p>I wasn't going to apply to Penn, but then I talked to a friend who went there. I like Penn's pre-professional drive, which I think is super useful in getting people to plan their futures well, but.. I'm probably definitely not a Wharton cut and my desire for more academic freedom has been drawing me nearer to LACs recently.</p>
<p>Princeton seems to be the ivy with the biggest undergrad focus, and students seem to be fiercely loyal - It's by far the school that manages to grab the most alumni donations! I haven't really researched Princeton that well, so any information about the climate / character of the school would be great!</p>
<p>Yale.. again, it's a great college and seems to have a great character, but I don't know much more about it. Yalies always seem nice though!</p>
<p>My grades and ECs are decent enough that I would like to aim for maybe 2 or 3 of these schools, but not more. If anyone can help me compare them I would be very grateful! :)</p>
<p>Why not consider Brown? You mentioned a desire for academic freedom, which is pretty much defined by Brown, as well as an undergrad focus, another thing they do well. Their humanities, so I’ve heard, are excellent. Definitely go check them out! </p>
<p>Other then that, GO DO MORE RESEARCH!! I hate to be that guy, but seems like you didn’t even try (Yale). You may find several of your options unattractive based on objective factors like location, weather, etc.</p>
<p>@leronymous Yep I know I have tons more research to do but I’m just hoping maybe CC can give me some direction to look in so far haha - I’ve been stalking student blogs and things from several schools… know any other research tips? :)</p>
<p>@dividerofzero Definitely not engineering, I’m quite a humanities person. Perhaps subjects like political science / philosophy?</p>
<p>Why can’t you apply to all four? If you’re an international full pay student (I see that you go to an international HS which tends to be very expensive) you’ll be very attractive to a number of schools with outstanding humanities programs with academics at or just below the levels of many of the most selective schools in the nation. </p>
<p>It’s really impossible to give recommendations based on what you’ve provided.</p>
<p>What career path are you interested in? You mentioned that you liked Penn’s pre-professional environment. Does this mean that you’re also interested in business? Do you see yourself on Wall Street?</p>
<p>@whenhen My school restricts me to applying to six colleges only - thus, it becomes a bit of a hassle with choosing a lot of subjects.</p>
<p>@Carotid sorry if I wasn’t more clear! I will most likely be applying undecided to a college, but probably in an area close to the arts and humanities. I’m posting a sort of generic recycled list of my stats / interests below. Not sure how much more info I can give, since my major will be undecided? I’m more looking for general impressions of colleges!</p>
<p>Stats:</p>
<ul>
<li>SAT - super score 2210 (CR - 800, M - 710, W - 700).</li>
<li>SAT 2s - yet to take (Probably will take literature, biology, maybe something else.)</li>
<li>IB predicted - It shouldn’t drop below a 40, if you add the 3 points. I’m trying to boost that to 42 right now… On the other hand, 4 HLs - English, Economics, Philosophy and Chinese B. SLs - Maths and Environmental Systems.</li>
</ul>
<p>Summary of extra curriculars:
President, captain and coach for school debating team (silver finalist in major local tournament, coached kids to win other things) - 3 years ongoing.</p>
<ul>
<li><p>Student council president (Been involved with the student council officially for 3 years, I have tons of fun on council and I think this year has been one of the best years yet in the school’s history)</p></li>
<li><p>Chair of inter-school debating organization that runs biannual charity debating tournaments - lots of involvement with different local and international NGOs, worked with Amnesty International and one or two other very prominent local charities. - 1 year as chair, 1 year as organizer, 1 year as participant :D</p></li>
<li><p>Organizer (albeit very passionate one) of a school based inclusivity group that strives for human rights / inclusiveness between LGBT, gender, racial, socio-economic etc. divides. Organized big groups for pride parades (lots of news coverage on that), run lessons for grade 9 students in school on the reality of discrimination, run an inter-school student conference inviting 4 different NGOs to come discuss with students on problems in home city, and how we can solve those problems. Been working closely with this local NGO I’m fond of who have the most warm-hearted organizers I’ve ever met. - 1 crazy year!</p></li>
<li><p>President of philosophy club that hosts discussions with students on philosophical issues every week - 2 years as president now, but it’s floundered a little this year.</p></li>
<li><p>Member of national delegation to one of the most prestigious international public speaking and debating tournaments in the world for two years running (involved 4+ months of training one day a week for both events), probably will be helping to host the tournament next year. - 2 years.</p></li>
<li><p>Won 4-5 notable debating best speaker / winning team awards at local tournaments, ranked 4th in the world for debating at aforementioned prestigious international debating / public speaking tournament (around 200 people attended, I think?)</p></li>
</ul>
<p>The obvious basis for this claim (which you’re not the first to make) is that Princeton has more undergraduate than graduate students; it has no business, law, or medical schools. However, Princeton has more classes with 50 or more students than any other Ivy besides Cornell. Some of Princeton’s economics courses have maximum enrollments of up to 300 students. Ditto for biology.
<a href=“Course Offerings | Office of the Registrar”>http://registrar.princeton.edu/course-offerings/</a></p>
<p>Few politics or history classes exceed 100. Still, many professors at all the Ivies are heavily engaged in research. That can benefit undergraduates, but it also means that much of their focus is not on undergraduate teaching. If you want consistent undergraduate focus and small classes, check out some of the US News top ~20 LACs. Admission to these schools is very competitive, but not the 1 in 10 to 1 in 20 crap shoot it is at Stanford, Princeton or Yale. </p>
<p>tk, class size is hard to interpret and easy to manipulate. I saw universities go from a 40%-20% distribution to a 60%-15% distribution in a single year. The fact of the matter is, class size varies very little from university to university among top research universities. Popular majors, like Biology, Economics, Political Science and Psychology will typically have large classes. Less common majors, like Chemistry, Classics, Mathematics, Philosophy and Physics will generally have smaller classes. It does not matter whether you are comparing a school like Dartmouth or a school like Cornell. This will be a standard trend regardless.</p>
<p>I’m not sure I understand this sentence. Does it refer to the distribution of classes with certain average class size ranges (< 20, >=50 etc)? What top ~30 national university has shown a 1-year swing that large in its CDS Section I data in the past ~5 years or so? </p>
<p>Anyway … Class size isn’t that hard to interpret. For any university that interests you, and for any subject you care about, try to find a link like the one I provided for Princeton in my previous post. Compare the enrollment sizes. Among top research universities, enrollments in similar classes in some departments (especially intro and intermediate levels) can range from many hundreds of students to less than 50 students. Example: Berkeley’s Intro to Economics lecture has an enrollment limit of 720 students (with many companion discussion sections taught by grad students). Chicago’s Intro to Micro and Intro to Macro courses have enrollment limits of 40, with actual enrollments of less than 20. The Ivies and peer private universities will have very few courses with anywhere near 700+ students. LACs will have none. Some high-ranking state universities will have quite a few. </p>
<p>I cite Chicago and Berkeley just because their numbers are easy to look up, and because they do demonstrate a strong contrast. I would agree that this contrast isn’t as strong among all top research universities, in all majors, or at all levels. Actually, I was not even making the point that any particular top research universities had dramatically smaller average class sizes than other research universities. On the contrary, my point was that Princeton (“the ivy with the biggest undergrad focus”) does not seem to have dramatically smaller average class sizes than the other Ivies. In what other measurable way does it have a stronger undergraduate focus than Yale, for example? </p>
<p>If you do think class size is a reasonable indicator of undergraduate focus, and you care about that, then what I’m suggesting here is not that any of the Ivies (or Stanford, etc.) are dramatically different in this respect than the others. I’m suggesting you have a look at LACs. I don’t think it is at all controversial to suggest that LACs have more consistently small classes (and stronger “undergraduate focus”) than research universities do … although of course in other respects (such as breadth of course offerings) LACs don’t compare as favorably.</p>
<p>@tk21769 I do care about class sizes and the information you’ve provided thus far has been very interesting - I’m looking at some schools like wellesley, smith, the claremont schools etc… The reason why I’m looking at ivies / top research colleges as well is that I would also like to engage in some research if possible during my undergrad stay, which is hard to do at LACs.</p>
<p>On someone elses suggestion above I’ve been researching brown, which intrigues me a little with its open curriculum. Again I’m sure someone can play with the numbers but classes at brown (correct me if I’m wrong) also generally seem small. I’m finally also looking at the new Abu Dhabi campus from NYU - It’s classes seem to be super small, and it does seem to mesh research and LAC a little, which is sort of what I’m looking for.</p>
<p>I guess the “undergrad focus” has been drilled into every princeton page so much that I’m taking it as granted - perhaps I shouldn’t?</p>
<p>tk, it was not recent. It was in the 2000-2005 period. And I am not going to name the universities in question. Suffice it to say, like most other criterion used by the USNWR, the class size data can easily be manipulated. Regardless, for the most part, I think we can agree that if one wants close contact with faculty and a personalized relationship with professors, LACs are the way to go.</p>
<p>@Alexandre Yes but not enough to commit three+ years of my studies to PPE right now. Are there any good PPE courses in the US? Although to be frank, it seems that if I really wanted to take PPE I would be applying to UK universities instead!</p>
<p>I’d suggest that you take a careful look at Pomona and CMC. Claremont McKenna offers a very strong PPE program (I’m a prospective applicant myself) that closely resembles that of Oxford’s.</p>
<p>If you’re more of the intellectually curious type, then take a look at Pomona as a whole. They offer a PPE major, but it’s more of a triple major rather than an actual program. Alternatively, if you value a pre-professional/practical focus in education, then I’d suggest CMC.</p>
<p>And I second the LAC suggestion. Small colleges offer great stepping stones to the nation’s top graduate programs. Hands-on research at these colleges is much more easily accessible because you’re not competing with graduate students. Try not to adopt the narrow-minded HYP attitude. </p>
<p>You go to a UWC, don’t you? Definitely apply to Brown and Middlebury. Those two love UWC students (in no small part because of the $$ that UWC students bring with them.)</p>
<p>@International95 Nope but close! I did try out for the UWC schools - I’m attracted to NYUAD for the same reasons why I was attracted to the UWC system. Even though I’m not in the system, when they rejected me (ha) I pledged to myself that there was more than one way to grow into a deeply ethical and thoughtful global citizen - I think I’ve achieved my goals, and I don’t regret anything. But yes, I do like the UWC spirit Ha and thanks for the money tip but while that still probably applies to me no I don’t go to a UWC.</p>
<p>@Carotid Hmm interesting. Incidentally I was trying to differentiate between those schools recently as well - so this is very useful! I’m trying not to focus too much on the ivy dream, but I don’t think the huge endowment packages some universities sport is a trivial matter either. Since you look pretty invested in CMC / the Claremont system, do you know how research opportunities are in those colleges actually? I still need to research the 5C schools more thoroughly but I think I shall end up applying to at least one. Again, my problem is that my school restricts me to 6 choices…</p>
<p>Incidentally, do you know how CMC’s PPE program is structured? I’m under the impression that UK PPE programs generally let you “specialize” in two out of three aspects. I like consortiums and cross enrollment policies because it gives me the small space I’m looking for while also giving me access to wider resources. Thank you for your advice! I will go chew it over in the near future :)</p>
<p>I’m confused how your school can limit you to six schools which are on the common app. Can’t your counselor just upload his/her recommendation along with your transcripts and other teacher recs?</p>
<p>@whenhen I don’t understand either. I get that some people over-apply to schools, but… it’s a little ridiculous that we’re so limited TBH. It’s not to do with workload - I mean it doesn’t take too much of an effort to apply to these schools, it’s very frustrating.</p>
<p>I will probably be applying full pay to my schools, yes.</p>
<p>Hmm, well you can apply up to 20 schools, but do that only after you counsellor uploads your recommendations/transcripts. International students should apply to a lot of schools because of the competition (simple probability thing).</p>
Ha and thanks for the money tip but while that still probably applies to me no I don’t go to a UWC.</p>