Mining for Gems.
Additionally, it’s not only football players at Harvard that look to balance out the workload with an easier class here and there. And I would argue that there are few colleges that don’t have a similar list.
@Dolemite you are describing some aspects where Princeton is more rigorous. However, the quarter system at Stanford is indeed very intense and can prove quite rigorous and demanding for most people. So we can’t really say that one school is more rigorous than the other.
@Penn95 I disagree when talking about a rigor floor. You can go to a large State school and find plenty of rigorous courses but you can also ‘slide’ much easier. Stanford’s not going to have that low of a floor but it’s floor is going to be lower than schools like MIT, Chicago, Cal Tech and even Princeton. Most likely doesn’t matter much for this applicant.
@dolemite – You’ve got to compare apples to apples in trying to ascertain rigor – STEM vs. Social Science/Humanities, number of units/contact hours, laboratory vs. seminar, etc., what the actual course requirements (amount of reading, number of papers, tests, PSETs, etc.) are, as well as the relative strengths and interests of the students taking the classes. It’s probably easier for some kids to do a ton of PSETs and bang out a bunch of lab reports than it is for them to write a 15-page research paper and vice versa. Then there’s the issue of graduation/gen ed requirements and how those can be met, whether or not there is a core curriculum, etc.
Also, bear in mind that there are theses and there are theses. One of the things my D looked at in comparing two schools within a consortium were the quality of the senior theses of each of the schools (they were available online through the library). Overall, there was a significant difference in the length and quality of the work from the students at one school versus the other. She also noted differences in the levels of intellectual curiosity among the student bodies that she perceived inside and outside of the classroom among the many schools she visited.
Overall, you are probably correct about rigor floors and ceilings…the college experience (and life) is often what you make of it; it can be as banal or as rich as the person living it.
@LoveTheBard My main point is that all schools lower their admission standards for Athletes. The Ivies came to an agreement about how much they would lower their standards for Athletes. Other elite privates that participate at the Division I level like Stanford, Duke, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, etc only operate under their own standards and the NCAA’s. While Stanford does an admirable job keeping standards high they nonetheless make extensive exceptions for Athletes to be able to participate in their sport at the highest level and still maintain satisfactory academic progress toward a degree. The by product is the ability to find less rigorous courses and majors.
I daresay that at all of the schools that have been mentioned (HYPS, MIT, Chicago, Cal Tech, etc). will all have no shortage of kids working at very high levels as well as their fair share of (relative) slackers…I contend that there are more and less rigorous courses and majors at every school. I was a notorious underachiever that attended one of NYC’s specialized high schools that consistently ranks as being one of the top 10 math-and science schools in the country, managed to graduate magna cum laude from Georgetown University and be admitted to Phi Beta Kappa without producing a body of work that – at this point in my life – I would consider to be representative of those levels of achievement. My D (who thankfully takes after her father and works at a much higher rigor ceiling than I ever did) has produced far better work than I had ever done as an undergraduate and perhaps even as a graduate school student. I suspect that she would probably work at that level at any school. To quote the Danish prince “[she] could be bounded in a nutshell and count [herself] a king [queen?] of infinite space.” Me? Not so much…
I think the back and forth discussion on which school/conference is more rigorous is not helping OP and the criteria is probably a wash for him. However, I agree with @Penn95 that the quarter system and the pace of it does add to stress level (at least). You have to remember that the OP will be juggling workouts and practices on top of classes. I hope he comes back to the thread to let us know his choice
FWIW, regarding post #56, my son’s varsity sport practices count as 1 credit at his Ivy school. I don’t see that as a problem as this is done at the high school level with many varsity sports. He practices pretty much year round five days a week. The fall is a bit lighter in intensity than in winter and onward. Many of his teammates including him are stem majors. As for taking some ‘easy’ classes, I don’t think that’s limited to athletes. I remember choosing some classes based on ‘easy’ status because I worked part time and had other non academic commitments. My point is that OP should choose his major based on what he loves and would want to pursue as a career, not what will accommodate his sport or be easy to get a degree in because his sport keeps him too busy.
Stanford is so selective and popular at the moment that I would choose Stanford. Lovely weather for rowing. Also, I don’t much like orange. But it does sound like you will do OK whatever. I don’t quite understand the preppy appeal of Princeton. Maybe it’s part of an F Scott Fitzgerald type myth, but actually he struggled academically and didn’t graduate. Although, obviously, things have moved on, and hopefully there is now some learning support.
Stanford’s Science, Technology and Society (STS) is an “easy” major that is very popular with athletes.
@CALSmom Like I said in #56 getting academic credit for participating in your sport might be desirable.
^^gotcha @Dolemite. Just adding that it’s done at an Ivy school as well. I thought your post made it seem that only Stanford does that (give credit for their sport). I won’t comment on the passing around a list of easy classes because I’m not aware of that at my kid’s school.
Post#56…“Stanford has each varsity sport as an actual class the team members take for credit in which they just do their sport. They were also dinged by the NCAA for passing around a list of easy classes for athletes to take. You aren’t going to find that at Princeton.”
Stanford is academically more rigorous than Princeton for the simple fact that you’re jamming a semester’s worth of content into a quarter and having midterms every week (and getting credit isn’t going to compensate for that in the least) Semester system is cush in comparison.
and I don’t necessarily think that’s a good thing when you’re an athlete with the demands of practice times in addition to everything else.
@sbballer I understand the rigors of a Quarter system and Stanford doesn’t pack a semester’s worth of material in 1 Quarter. Looking at the Math sequence clearly shows that. The Single Variable Calc sequence is 3 courses as well as the MV/LA sequence whereas at Semester schools they are 2 Semester courses. The Quarter system does give you the opportunity to take more classes you just don’t go into as much depth in any single course as you would with a Semester class. Also if you’re taking a requirement you don’t like at least it’s only for 10 weeks.
I’m not arguing that Princeton is overall more rigorous than Stanford just that Stanford has a lower floor and that for the student seeking that they can find it easier at Stanford than at Princeton.
.
Wrong. If this were true, then UCLA or UCSD would be more rigorous than MIT and Berkeley! Stanford doesn’t cram semester long 15 week courses into 10 week stress filled classes. Typical 3 or 2 class sequence such as intro math (51/52/53) is equivalent to a two semester sequence at Berkeley or MIT. For non sequence classes, the material covered at Stanford is much less than the equivalent one at MIT/Berkeley.
Academically rigorous doesn’t have to be just covering more or less material. It could also mean the pace/demands. For example, Stanford has shorter time periods between exams/mid-terms.
quarter system in general is more rigorous… over a semester system… no contest and it’s not even close. midterms every week. on a semester system you can coast till winter break and study for the finals… not true of the quarter system.
and I agree Berkeley is more rigorous… and I would argue definitely more rigorous than Princeton…and I would include Stanford too… esp in STEM where classes are graded on a strict bell curve. remember those:)
Stanford has a higher floor for the athlete overall than an ivy… and is more selective in admitting students at the very top of their sport. Many students may have the academics to get into Stanford as a student but not the athletic excellence to be admitted as an athlete.
@sbballer Historically Stanford has higher grade inflation which isn’t necessarily aligned with rigor but it does mean you’ll get higher grades with the same amount of work. Princeton no longer officially has grade deflation but not all longtime Profs change so easily. And you don’t have a mid-term every week in a quarter system but as noted you don’t have as much time to catch up if you fall behind so you have to be more diligent. I’m not placing a value judgement on grade inflation or rigor - different students want different things but it helps to have as much information as possible to make a decision. All I’m saying is that Stanford has more rigor options than Princeton with the huge Athletic program being one of the main reasons.
Congratulations on two great choices. One of the best parts of being a great athlete is having these choices (and decision) early. You are able to relax (while keeping up your training and studies) while everyone else is sweating the college apps and decisions. It’s pretty sweet. It sounds like the only issue with Stanford is being bored with it being familiar. It is fantastic to be on a winning sports program if you are investing all the time to be part of one. You said Stanford is at the top of the heap. Don’t underestimate how fast training indoors for a west coast athlete can get old. Being part of a huge (not just big) budget athletic program has perks mere mortals never see…higher level of travel comfort, competitive and training opportunities - some in other countries, academic support (a tutor) on the plane with you, as much gear as you can imagine, the best trainers brought in from all over the world, custom footwear - crazy stuff, but things that help you excel as an athlete and student.
You are going to spend a lot of hours with this team and coach (coaches can change, but you likely have general idea of longevity if coach is a fixture there, but certainly the team), do you have a feeling of a fit with the guys/team culture at one or the other? From everything you have said, Stanford has more to offer you except a different coast and new experience. But it could be a new experience that is life changing for the better, or frankly it could be a bust. It is up to you to make either choice the experience you want it to be. It is ok to turn down Stanford, there are plenty of athletes that choose other schools for various reasons that are important to them. It is your life. Just be sure you are doing so based on significant reasons that are important to you. If your gut is not clearly ringing a loud bell then write down what is really important or matters in your choice - academics, athletic prestige, academic prestige, importance of winning, importance of winning level (NCAA Champion potential), coaches, team mates, location, family support nearby, big budget program, weather, size of school, support of athletes - anything at all that matters. Then prioritize them for you. Put the winner in one column and see which school has the most “victories.” Sometimes it is good to separate out factors that are all jumbled in your head and causing confusion. It can help you see what is important to you.
And as a last thought, I always suggest students ask themselves this question…10 years from now, where do you want to say you graduated from?
I assume you have until the November 8th-15th NLI period, which means someone has to be readying the paperwork now/very soon, so perhaps you have made your decision? Best to you!