<p>to me</p>
<p>How do we explain these leap of faith chances to our husbands? I’ve done all the research and can get a feel for what kind of risks to take and whether the traveling costs are worth it, but my husband only knows what I tell him. It’s a challenge. I think I’ll have to do a lot of driving to these reach schools. Traveling with a cello is expensive. I’d like to know what cello parents did for auditions. Did they drive more to justify the cost of auditioning at the reach schools? </p>
<p>Only tell him what he needs to know? ;)</p>
<p>What helped me deal with this angst was having a teacher who worked with my son who had gone through the college admission process with other students in past years. This helped because he had a sense of where my son fit in. But also he was able to help our son understand the subtle differences between the schools which in turn helped our son tweak his prescreen and his choice of material for his auditions. So if you can consider looking for a teacher this year for your child who has had other students apply to conservatory. </p>
<p>Even with all his experience my son’s teacher was clear conservatory application and admission is not a predictable process. We were fortunate that our son attended Berklee 5 week the summer between Junior and Senior year and was given a scholarship (which also meant he would automatically be admitted if he applied). It helped our son knowing that he had a solid safety. Our financial safety was a small not necessarily well known state school in a neighboring state that happened to also have an excellent teacher in our son’s instrument. Our son never ended up auditioning there, but was admitted on academics alone with a full scholarship.</p>
<p>BTW, the reason I sent the link to the NRC stats (although keep in mind that PhD.org is just a web site that provides a front end to those stats…the raw data is available from NRC for anyone who is interested, is because applying to conservatory is a lot like applying to graduate school. There is a question of fit and there are often few spots and many applicants. </p>
<p>Oh one more thing about angst and college admissions….The worst thing that will happen is that your child will not get into any school that he/she wants to go to. That might sound like a huge CRISIS. And I know it is hard to not be fearful for your child. But I was “fortunate” to have a kid who had a lot of struggles in HS and spent more time out of school then in school due to a complex mix of learning disabilities and emotional challenges. He only graduated from HS only because the system had nothing more to offer him. I think they were eager to just exit him and not have to spend any more money trying to educate him. He was not ready for college. He did a gap year and it was WONDERFUL. He matured so much in that gap year and learned so much about himself and how he learns and who he is. By the time this child did enter college he was ready and he took off. In fact it was rather amusing because the summer of his freshman year one of his professors tried to write our son’s HS math teacher to tell her how well prepared our son was. The letter came to our house because she did not have the address of the therapeutic school our son had attended. We all laughed because our son had not managed to pass a single math class in HS. BTW, he graduated this past weekend suma cum laude in mathematics. </p>
<p>The moral of the story is that if your child wants to do music badly enough and work hard enough and is motivated then if they have to take a gap year to mature and gain skills to pursue their dream, it is not such a bad thing. There is no rush. Not all kids mature at the same rate and some need a bit more time than others.</p>
<p>The more you believe that the above is true and the less worried you are about it not working out, the more relaxed they will be and also the better they will handle it if they do get rejected.</p>
<p>“The more you believe that the above is true and the less worried you are about it not working out, the more relaxed they will be and also the better they will handle it if they do get rejected.”</p>
<p>This should be framed.
You guys are awesome.</p>
<p>cellomom6, Older s is a cellist who did a number of auditions that required flying and we went with him so that was a seat for him, and one for cello and one for parent. I suggest if you can schedule it put the schools you care about least at end of audition calendar. We had several acceptances in hand in time to cancel last 2 auditions and before we needed to book airline tickets and we do not live near a major airport. But I think you can only expect to hear from schools that use rolling admissions but I seem to remember Indiana, Ithaca College and I think Lawrence do. I think the bigger name schools like Eastman, Oberlin,etc. do not. We ended up also doing a bunch of driving and if you are doing that keep in mind you might need to build in an extra day due to weather which might involve another night of hotel fee. </p>
<p>Stacjip: we relied on S’s teacher in exactly the same way you describe. If you are lucky enough to study with a teacher with a track record of success with conservatories, it is a godsend, and that’s why I would recommend that you search high and low and invest in such a teacher if one is available. </p>
<p>S and I started out the audition journey with a kick in the teeth: S failed to pass the Rice prescreen, a possibility that neither S, I, nor teacher had in the least prepared ourselves for. To make matters worse, S had used the same taping session (and the same pieces) that Rice rejected in his application to Aspen, and the faculty at Rice was also on the faculty at Aspen. We wrote off Aspen as lost and were down one school before we’d even started. With that unpleasant surprise, I must confess that all the positive experiences of the past nearly faded into nothingness, but I had to put on a brave face, shrug my shoulders, and help S move forward. My advice would be to expect surprises (pleasant and unpleasant), to have a Plan B gap year in mind, and to move forward through the process as though you’re clad in iron. </p>
<p>Having been through our experience, I trust the process. S got roughly the same result (acceptances into requested studios and scholarships) at each of our target schools. Though we were sure Aspen was lost, other faculty must have been pulling for S because he was first waitlisted and then accepted with a fellowship. All I can say to anyone facing auditions (and, thank God, I only have one musician child!) is to target as carefully as you can and HAVE FAITH in the process. DH and I thought of the expense as an investment–in essence, part of the cost of S’s college. I was in the same situation you are, cellomom6, in that I was the point person and H wasn’t very involved. And, Saintfan, I didn’t tell H any more than he asked to know!</p>
<p>That being said, when S got word from the faculty of his first choice school, I burst into tears right on the sidewalk, and I’m not an emoter. I was on the phone immediately with DH. He burst into tears, too. It would be nice if statistics could cushion the roller coaster ride of auditions, but the process is the process. You win some and you lose some. And that wonderful moment of acceptance would not have been so sweet, I think, if auditions hadn’t been fraught with uncertainty.</p>
<p>Saintkid #2 is now up to two camps and a festival this summer and when absolutely necessary in discussing with DH I am comparing them to Saintkid #1’s sports team expenses including lessons, travel and tournaments. That he gets. ;
</p>
<p>I would hope that you could tell your husband the truth…music study in some ways is like owning a house, the cost of supporting it never seems to end, and in unexpected ways…seriously, the audition process is not easy and it can be darn expensive. We were fortunate, most of the schools my S applied to were either close enough to drive, or were easily accessible via plane or train…we had one on the west coast that was more difficult. having a violin is a lot easier than a cello, no extra ticket needed…</p>
<p>It is one of the reasons that I kind of agree with my son, that doing what kids do in academic admissions might not make sense in applying to a lot of schools (and this is simply my thoughts, YMMV). I realize that with the difficulty of admission, and also issues with cost and such, it can be hard to not go for a lot of schools in the hope that the right offer drops out, so there are a lot more variables here…still, would you want to have a school, hypothetically, where your kid could get in, but doesn’t have a strong music program? Wouldn’t it be better to maybe take a gap year and try for a better school the next year? Getting into a program doesn’t mean much if it can’t carry the student along to where they want to go, it is a bit different than academics (put it this way, you study computer science the curricula isn’t all that much different from school to school…whereas obviously instruction on an instrument is very different…). </p>
<p>I realize that in some ways this contradicts what i have told others, not to write off a reach school, but in the end, if you are auditioning at schools you see as safeties, that are less competitive, it may be wiser to drop them and go for a reach, then do the shotgun form of auditions. </p>
<p>@205mom - The family you are trying to help has a child who wants to pusue composition, if I’ve read correctly. My son was not pure composition, but electronic composition and recording/production – his portfolio requirements at his preferred option included notated and produced compositions, an electronic instrumentation of a fugue, etc. The other two top programs in terms of favorites for him required similar portfolios.</p>
<p>So you might want to share the following approach with the family you want to help: in each of the three cases, we pre-toured the schools, specifically asked how many applicants the program typically received, and then compared that with the number of students matriculated to the program. Nobody refused to answer, (this was in person, btw, which might have helped) though each made clear that the odds of acceptance had to do more with level of “musicality” evidenced by the portfolio, quality of past experience, evidenced by the portfolio, resume, and recommendations, and evidence of accomplishment regionally of nationally as opposed to locally, again, as evidenced by the resume. At each of these programs, academic stats were germane given the rigor of school in one case and heavy science emphasis in others. So that too was a variable.</p>
<p>“Statistically” speaking, the “odds” for these programs turned out to be anywhere from about 5% to 12%. Nothing that would give anybody on the planet any cause to call any of them a safety, even though some of them were “larger” programs, eg., up to 20 freshman…others had a limit of six. Each of the three programs had applicants from every corner of the planet, it seemed, based on people we met.</p>
<p>In one case, the portfolio requirements were deliberately designed to discourage application from candidates who might have had ample contemporary experience but wouldn’t know what to do to create an instrumentation of a Bach fugue We later discovered this requirement was to help align students most likely to succeed…that particular school had many traditional composition courses and crossover with a rigorous comp program. </p>
<p>In a less determined applicant, those stats might have given pause about applying ;)</p>
<p>Then there are financial variables, which are even more myriad. </p>
<p>My feeling is that the only “safety” for any music student is actually a non-music degree at a school in which they’re among the top 20% statistically :)</p>
<p>In our case, our “safety” was a regional university that offered early and fully-funded admission for academic pursuit. Our second “safety” was a foreign school where we knew the composition prof that did not have the exact program my son wanted but were willing to allow him to pursue a blended degree between the composition department and film productin department. </p>
<p>The rest was a crap shoot, though the kid got lucky :)</p>
<p>So what I’m saying is basically counsel that family to avoid allowing statistics govern the election of the high level programs to which the student applies…and create a different kind of “safety.” Just instead set a reasonable limit to the number to which he/she applies. Eg " we’ll plan on six interviews/auditions…submit your portfolio to as many programs as you like…but narrow it to six come winter… </p>
<p>If the parents are clear up front about what they’ll spend, and how actual attendance will be predicated on scholarship offer/net cost, there’s no harm in being accepted to, and then rescinding admission to a school one can’t afford. Hard choices but part of growing up. We can’t ALL drive that Maserati just because its a perfect fit 
</p>
<p>No point sheltering a kid from how the world works if they’re set on pursuing this kind of path, methinks!</p>
<p>“submit your portfolio to as many programs as you like…but narrow it to six come winter…;)”</p>
<p>This is good advice, kmcmom13. Thank you for the whole post.
I also received a few pm messages that are <em>enormously helpful.</em> You know who you are, so thank you, as well. </p>
<p>I agree! That way you can see how the pre screens go and choose from there.</p>
<p>My daughter did 4 portfolio applications for conservatories and two college applications w/an arts supplement (including just one CD w/cued “best three minutes”, score, resume, list of compositions and 2 letters of recommendation from music teachers, including composition teacher). Four auditions was plenty for her! She only did auditions/interviews that did not require a composition applicant to audition on an instrument, on principle.</p>
<p>For a composer, a college music major may work really well, so your friends might want to consider that as well. I believe letters of recommendation were key for the colleges so they shouldn’t be afraid to include two, in addition to the common application’s required letters from academic teachers.</p>
<p>It is helpful for morale afterward to know how many slots there were. For instance, the year my daughter applied there was only one slot for an undergrad composer at Juilliard. She was, knowing that, honored to make the interview and not at all fazed by rejection :)</p>
<p>@musicprnt I agree on the school that might reject a student because they are “too good”<br>
My D was given a low merit offer at one of her safety schools. School told D that they expected her to go elsewhere so they offered low merit. So from that standpoint, stats really do not tell the whole story. </p>
<p>Another example of how stats can be misleading: each year my D’s high school posts its matriculation list. While the list is impressive, it is actually less impressive than the acceptance list. For example this year at Juilliard, 3 (soprano, tenor and baritone) were accepted and 2 (tenor and baritone) are enrolling. So a prospective student might think “no females got into Juilliard.” There were also many students accepted to “top schools” that enrolled in “2nd tier schools” because of aid.</p>
<p>My point, I have no idea how a school could provide the stats that would be truly useful to prospective students. There are simply too many variables (instrument type, aid, teacher availability.) When it comes to aid it gets more muddled. Schools say they have 80% on FA. Does that mean merit, grants, subsidized or unsubsidized loans? 80% on merit is better than 80% on unsubsidized loans, but they do not differentiate that in their claim.</p>
<p>I wish there was a magic formula :)</p>
<p>@scuba-
Yeah, what you say is dead spot on, the problem with statistics like churn rate and such is that you cannot know why they happen the way they do…and financial aid is the classic shell game. Schools will tell you that X% of their student body receives aid, but what they don’t tell is a lot of that aid is based in student loans (which aren’t aid, and shouldn’t be allowed to be classified as such). Likewise, schools might say that X% of their students receive merit aid , but what is the typical allocation? If it is a school like Juilliard, it basically boils down to need in the end, other schools if you are able to afford the program in their eyes, will give very little, even if the kid is that good (in part, because the name schools attract such a high caliber of student that in granting merit aid, there isn’t that wide a gap between best and the rest; a program trying to attract high flying students will grant more aid, because there is a much bigger gap in talent IME). </p>
<p>The real reason not to use statistics as an absolute measure is that results often transcend statistics. Someone I know of got into School A with a really fantastic teacher, whose reputation is better than almost all the teachers at school B, yet the person didn’t get into School B (and school B is roughly equal to A in reputation, not ‘famous school’ versus “up and coming school at all”). Why did the teacher at A and the panel at B see things so differently? If you go by statistics, where teacher at A probably admits less students as a percentage than School B does on the instrument, you would think it was a slam dunk…but it wasn’t. </p>
<p>Getting back to the original thread, it is probably a lot more important to try and get a good assessment of your abilities, and then plan admissions from there, rather than count on the admissions rate. </p>
<p>
. This is not strictly true, at least not from what I have been able to learn through observation and through conversations with financial aid administrators. For undergrads, the aid is a combination of need and merit, and need is weighed more heavily. However, they do not guarantee to meet full FAFSA “need” and some students with a lot of need do not receive scholarship money. Others with equal or less demonstrated need may receive more. For grad school, since most need is equal (except for trust fund kids, older independent students tend to have similar need), scholarship is based more on factors like the audition. It is a mix, however, and is impossible to predict what will happen from the front end where we all stand. I suspect it’s also hard to predict these outcomes from within the school until the very complex internal meetings and negotiations take place. As families, we can only see our own situations and need. But there are many moving parts for these committees to consider. </p>
<p>That’s why I think it’s prudent to cast a wide net of applications if you can afford to pay sticker price for a school. </p>
<p>Need versus merit and admissions. </p>
<p>My comments are based on my small foray into the world of graduate admissions and, obviously are biased/anecdotal. Here are some things S noticed and/or learned through direct contact with faculty.</p>
<p>1.The more talented the student, the better the scholarship/fellowship (no surprise here).</p>
<ol>
<li><p>If you have no financial need and can pay full fee, chances of being admitted to top programs goes up dramatically. S was amazed where some of his average ability but wealthy bass playing cohorts got in (obviously not Colburn, Yale or Curtis since these are tuition free). I have seen the youtube videos of some of these young people and was shocked that they were admitted to X conservatory. They played on expensive instruments but even a top quality instrument can’t hide to tone misses in the upper register!</p></li>
<li><p>Faculty notice what you are playing. More expensive, high quality instrument = more family resources. S was unable to purchase a bass flight case (2K for the case plus processing the bass through TSA, baggage is risky for the instrument) and used instruments at some of the schools he auditioned at. Some schools even asked the instrument information on the pre-audition paperwork!. Everywhere S auditioned on an instrument other than his own, the faculty asked him what kind of bass he played on and did he have an extension. One even looked with an expression of disdain at S when S told him what his bass was (sorry, we can only afford a 14k bass at this time)</p></li>
<li><p>In general, graduate programs have less scholarship money to offer than they did a few years ago-economics. Several of the teachers my son talked with and negotiated with shared this fact. Some even told him the “free ride” was a thing of the past for MM at their school. S was offered more $$ at one school on the grad school declaration day (when programs are turned down by applicants). The increase amounted to 5k-not enough to help. The conservatories tended to have much less $$ to offer than the programs that were schools of music and affiliated with a large university.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Agree with glassH -it is a mix of factors and several people involved in the process.</p>
<p>Oh BTW-not completing a FAFSA is a sign that money is not an issue. My understanding is that the FAFSA is only needed for work study. Assistantships are not need based.</p>
<p>There is definitely less money for grad students now than in the past. That’s hard for families to swallow, given that when our kids began college, money for graduate school was flowing more freely. I’m not sure I agree with you about non-need-blind admissions, but our kids may have been applying to different programs. Anecdotally I saw kids being admitted to top-ranked programs who had much need and were given little scholarship. Which is of course a quandary. There is also a domino effect right around April 15 when admitted students begin turning down programs. All in all, grad admissions were pretty tough and exhausting, if a bit less so than undergrad.</p>
<p>@ GH-
When i said need at Juilliard (or other top programs) boiled down to need, what I meant was from everything saw and have been told by admissions departments, if someone comes in as a really great player but their family has a lot of resources, they aren’t going to give them a lot of merit aid, that merit aid is based on talent and need…and yeah, someone who has great need may still not get any merit aid. I have heard claims to the contrary, one family of know of, their kid got into Juilliard , and they were bragging how he got into Juilliard and got a ton of merit aid, even though the family was very well off (believe me, they could afford full freight at Juilliard or any other top conservatory). The kid was a friend of my S’s, and told him that he got some merit aid, but it was pretty much at the level of being an honararium, couple of grand a year…so a lot of people who say they didn’t need the aid but their brilliant kid got a full ride, etc, at one of the top conservatories, may be exaggerating. </p>
<p>Basically, I agree with GH, there is no way of knowing. Your kid could be really really good, your family could need a lot of aid, and the kid could end up getting not nearly enough aid (in fact, it is common based on my experience)…what I am saying is if your family income (according to the school ) is enough to pay full freight, that it is likely that any merit awards are going to be nominal, based on my experience. I suspect kids getting a lot of need based financial aid and ‘merit’ aid are kids who play really well, are out to the right of the bell curve talent wise, and also come from limited family income. I know of several students on different instruments who were world class players, prob I would guess in the top 1% of kids auditioning,and they didn’t get any merit aid, and were told it had nothing to do with their audition…</p>
<p>The real idea is you never know, you could be really, really good and get little merit aid, you could be good but not great and get a lot of aid because that year they had more funds available (that does vary, folks, scholarships come from endowments and how well they do)…so as GH said, if need is there and aid is therefore important, to cast a wide net with programs and see what plays out, because you never know. </p>
<p>Note I am talking undergrad, grad school is a different phenomenon these days, always has been different and I wouldn’t comment on that. </p>