<p>Great advice Diane R and jollybean. I am so glad to read about your experiences with college admissions. It is frustrating when I see that colleges have discriminatory policies regarding homeschooled students, such as requiring more SATIIs, but it's refreshing to know that they are not always adhered to.</p>
<p>I may be in the minority, and by all means I'm not looking forward to having my kids take the SAT IIs, but I just don't see it as "discrimination" - the admission reps have to have something objective to go by. I don't think they should be required to take a parent's word for it regarding mastery of content.</p>
<p>Pearl, I'm sure you're not alone in your thinking that admissions needs some objective, standardized measures by which to compare homeschooled students to other students. My feeling is that whatever tests the school requests from traditionally schooled applicants should be the tests requested from homeschooled. Homeschooled students shouldn't need to show MORE tests than others. Most homeschoolers I know try very hard to package their children's educations into easy-to-read, comparable transcripts for admissions officers. In addition, by the time they apply, many students have community college courses, AP or CLEP exam scores on their transcripts as well. So I don't think additional SAT II tests are necessary.</p>
<p>Similarly, I don't agree with the practice of requiring homeschool graduates to take a GED exam. To me, the GED negates the entire homeschool high school experience. But many families have no problem with it, and just give the colleges what they want. </p>
<p>I respect both points of view.</p>
<p>I think if some schools are able to admit the homeschoolers they want without special requirements, there is no reason why other schools couldn't do the same thing. Why do seven schools of the Ivy League manage just fine leaving it up to homeschoolers to put together application packages and yet Columbia feels that it can't?</p>
<p>Having objective measures is useful, but I don't see the need to limit homeschoolers to particular ones. If there were some problem where schools were finding that homeschoolers were unprepared once they get into college, that would be one thing. But what I hear about is traditionally-schooled kids having problems and the homeschooled doing just fine. So what is the point of the extra testing? </p>
<p>I'm reminded of a study that shows that homeschoolers do equally well whatever the level of regulation in their states. So what is the point of the regulation if it doesn't make any difference in terms of results?</p>
<p>When I saw that a school required extras from homeschoolers, that was a turnoff, and I figured my kid wouldn't apply there because he was not willing to take multiple SAT subject tests (for example). </p>
<p>But don't be discouraged. There are many colleges that require nothing more than SAT/ACT and a transcript. Just make sure your transcript includes the "minimum requirements" of that college--4 English, 4 math, whatever. . .My kid got accepted with only SAT scores and a one-page, homemade transcript --just course titles, grades, credit hours, GPA, rank--, (no outside grades, no booklists, no work samples, no explanations of curriculum or teaching/learning methods). Only one of four colleges even required a recommendation. Many on-line applications don't.</p>
<p>I've said this before, but IMO there will be fewer questions asked if your homeschool has a name that doesn't include the word "homeschool," and your transcript is simple, easy to read, and looks like a school transcript. I think of it this way--I'm running a private school, so I want my paperwork to look/sound like it. People in admissions offices won't have to waste time trying to "interpret" my kid's info. because it is in a familiar format. I know this goes against what homeschoolers tend to pride themselves in--being unique, nonconformist, etc. and I'll admit that it isn't easy to "package" your kid's unconventional education in a conventional way, but IMO the word "homeschooler" raises certain negative stereotypes for many people in the educational establishment ("odd," etc.) and I don't want to feed those stereotypes or have my kid put at a disadvantage because of them.</p>
<p>High test scores (I think one SAT or ACT is enough) may be the key to "no questions asked." This is really the only objective way colleges have of comparing students from all types of schools. If you have the scores, schools want you. If you don't have high test scores, you might have more explaining to do. . .</p>
<p>Regarding mastery of subjects, if you knew how weak courses in many high schools are, and how much grade inflation there is, you'd wonder why SAT subject tests aren't required of all students.</p>
<p>Not to be devils advocate for this thread or anything (plus I have little experience in homeschooling so sorry if I sound ignorant) but shouldn't this be expected and accepted when a parent and student choose homeschooling as their route of education? As an alternative to "normalcy", colleges are unable to have a streamlined approach toward homeschooled children. Many children that are homeschooled do not have the fortune that some of your children have to have such educated parents in regards to college courses, APs, what have you. So the "unfair treatment" of homeschooled children only seems logical to me.
By no means is this post attacking your viewpoints. I know I am not educated in this process as a public high school student but was more curious than anything else.</p>
<p>
[quote]
you'd wonder why SAT subject tests aren't required of all students.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>A lot (most?) of the time they are.</p>
<p>From my experience, requiring SAT subject tests is the exception. My son is applying for music programs and we have looked at tons of schools. The only ones I've found that require them are Northwestern and Michigan.</p>
<p>We have been using Clonlara as our umbrella school. I am thinking about listing it as his high school. (It is an accredited private school.) Big problem is, it is in Ann Arbor and so is U. Michigan. Does anybody have experience listing your umbrella school as your high school?</p>
<p>GIMEurSTRESballZ- I'm not sure I fully understand your challenge. Colleges have a list of requirements that require perspective freshmen to fulfill prior to enrollment. A transcript, essays,(maybe letters of recommendation) and a set of tests are used for evaluation and to determine the level of competency. The same set of parameters are used whether the student is public or privately educated. Why should the criterion change? HOW the candidate received the knowledge should be of minimal concern. In fact, it's the position of may on this board, mastery of a subject through self-study indicates a BETTER likelyhood of success in higher-education (and life). We could bore you with lots of personal stories on why we believe the truth of that thesis. </p>
<p>A different standard for homeschoolers is based on bias that is unproven. In fact, the studies that have been performed indicate the opposite. Most admissions officers are looking for students who are excited about learning and are self-motivated. A homeschooling backround usually instills these attributes.</p>
<p>Well, first, I don't want this to sound like a challenge. I just didn't understand why everyone felt homeschoolers were being treated unfairly by having to do more work than kids that go to public or private high schools. I thought it was natural to force the homeschooled students to prove their understanding of a subject in as many ways as possible. Maybe there is something else almost all homeschooled students do that would make this superfluous?</p>
<p>Just saying it seems "natural" to you doesn't seem like much of an argument. Why SHOULD homeschoolers need to prove their understanding of a subject any more than anyone else, if there is no evidence that they graduate knowing less?</p>
<p>Actually, most homeschoolers, particularly those applying to selective institutions, do things that render special requirements superfluous. Many have outside 2 or 4 year college or correspondence courses or have taken CLEP, SAT II, and/or AP exams on their own to show their ability and achievement. They also do the standardized testing required of all students, which shows reading, English, math and (with the ACT) science reasoning. For most schools this is enough -- and if it proved not to be, we would be having a trend toward extra testing. But this isn't happening. If anything, colleges are getting more and more open to homeschoolers, so apparently their experiences are positive.</p>
<p>As far as your question, Piano/MT Mom, we did list our umbrella as the high school. It is a private school under our state's law and it is the one that reviewed what we did, granted credit, and issued a transcript. Technically, it told us not to say we were "homeschoolers" but were engaging in home study under the auspices of a private school. Whatever -- I figure that colleges know what it is no matter what you call it. </p>
<p>It is not accredited, though, since it has no courses of its own and doesn't want to jump through the accreditation hoops anyway. This didn't seem to make any difference to anyone.</p>
<p>Since Clonlara is accredited, I don't know why you wouldn't put them down as the high school and have them issue the diploma and transcript. They should have experience with graduates applying to U Mich, so perhaps you should ask them how they are looked upon by that university.</p>
<p>Somewhat tangential but: Was your daughter evaluated as a homeschooler, then? And if you're enrolled in an acredited public umbrella, do you still apply as a homeschooled applicant?</p>
<p>quote: "Just saying it seems "natural" to you doesn't seem like much of an argument. Why SHOULD homeschoolers need to prove their understanding of a subject any more than anyone else, if there is no evidence that they graduate knowing less?"</p>
<p>Trying to be objective, I think that they are well within their rights to require it because the home-schooling program is not accredited. If a student graduates from a high school that isn't accreditied, in most cases they also must go through these extra hoops to be accepted. </p>
<p>The accreditation validates the courses being taught in the public/private schools, whether that accrediation reflects accurately or not. Homeschoolers usually don't have that validation of the subject material being taught, thus the college looks for something else.</p>
<p>I also think that to balk too much at these requirements puts home-school students in a poor light. We risk the potential of being viewed as "uncoorporative, whiney, spoiled brats who expect the world handed to them on a silver platter without providing any validation of worth." Apply to schools that require the extra tests - or not - but let's try to put an end to the complaining.</p>
<p>If it wasn't clear in my earlier post, our umbrella was NOT an accredited school. It was just something used as an alternative to review by the local school system. The umbrella did not offer courses of its own and never examined my daughter's actual work. I just reported what courses we did, what we used for them, and the hours spent. So I can't imagine that my daughter was put into a category other than "homeschooler," although we never used the specific terminology. Maybe colleges gave a little more credibility to the transcript since there was some outside review; I don't know. The umbrella likes to think so, but I have no way of knowing if this is true. I used them more because I wanted nothing more to do with the school system than for any possible cachet of "private school."</p>
<p>Had someone wanted grades, I would have shown actual work to the umbrella and grades would have been developed. But this didn't happen. I suppose if my daughter had no outside work or testing, or the testing done yielded real low scores, the umbrella would have delved deeper into what we did. But she did well in college courses and scored very high on the ACT, so they were satisfied with my written reports and a couple Q&A sessions with us during the year.</p>
<p>Some states have review of homeschoolers -- planned curricula, the work they do, annual testing, or the like -- and others have little or none. I haven't heard that colleges give any more credibility to hsers depending on where they live. But then they seem to do the same, no matter the regulatory scheme. </p>
<p>It is confusing, I know, since some things are called umbrellas which are accredited and which do offer courses or physically review the actual work. There is no reason for you to know this, though, so I can see why it is puzzling.</p>
<p>I know the NCAA certainly considered my daughter as a homeschooler and we had to get all the information required for homeschoolers to them in order for her to get eligibility for intercollegiate athletics.</p>
<p>Pearl,</p>
<p>I don't think that extra validation should never be required or that anyone should have admission on a silver platter to a selective school simply by submitting a homemade transcript and the minimum amount of testing. I do think that any extras should be justified by the facts, however. And the fact that the bulk of colleges, including nearly all of the highly selective places, do not find the restrictive requirements to be necessary or justified is telling. Also telling is the fact that the trend is for the requirements to become more flexible as colleges gain experience with homeschoolers. Schools are finding that their earlier fears were unwarranted, it seems.</p>
<p>Seven Ivies don't need to specify extra testing, but one does. Why assume that the one (not among the more selective) knows more than the others about what must be known to decide among applicants?</p>
<p>Frankly, the information we submitted told colleges more about what my daughter learned and how than any set of SAT II tests. We would have had to change how we homeschooled, what courses were taken and how they were handled, had any of her seven reaches required this testing. I would have been most unhappy if we had had to recreate a typical high school experience -- which we had specifically rejected in deciding to homeschool to begin with -- just to satisfy some college's whim. Fortunately, we didn't have to.</p>
<p>And to ask that I put an end to my complaining? Gee, what would I do with myself then? :)</p>
<p>OK Diane, you cleared up my thoughts. I did not realize the majority took so many college courses/AP tests to prove they knew their stuff. I thought that was a minority. Thanks for handling my ignorance so courteously. You definitely enlightened me much more in concern with homeschooled students.</p>
<p>Wow, you've made my day. It makes my procrastinating by sitting here at the computer seem worthwhile LOL</p>
<p>sometimes the special requirements for homeschoolers, esp SAT IIs, are based on the assumption that the homeschoolers have done everything at home and don't have any outside grades. Colleges want something more quantitative and objective than a portfolio or parent-generated grades that they can use to compare the homeschooler to their applicant pool. If you have done a lot of CC or distance learning courses, or AP exams, a lot of the schools that say they want extra SAT IIs for homeschoolers actually don't care.</p>
<p>Then why can't they just say that having some outside verification of ability, such as [give list], is useful rather than specifying a certain number of SAT IIs? </p>
<p>But I guess it is useful that we homeschoolers share our information this way, to learn that the "requirements" are sometimes a little squishy.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Then why can't they just say that having some outside verification of ability, such as [give list], is useful rather than specifying a certain number of SAT IIs?
[/quote]
I think the problem stems from the term "homeschooling". It was coined to describe families with young children, being taught at home by a parent. It is totally inadequate to describe the activities of typical college-bound teens. We are using the term as a big umbrella encompassing virtually anything outside a traditional 9-3 brick and mortar school, including doing college for high school. But to the general public, it means just what the word looks like it should mean, and what it does mean for most families with very young kids, - "schooling at home" with mom as teacher. Those folks would not associate the term "homeschooler" with someone attending community college full time, for instance, but we might.</p>