<p>With applications way up and acceptance rates way down, admission directors around the country are gloating about their sub 15% or single digit acceptance rates.</p>
<p>We need to stop being application fodder. These elite schools should be upfront as to who get automatically eliminated (a la Duke).</p>
<p>I got into all my "right fit" and "safety" schools and none of my 8 reach schools ("$50, an essay and a dream")</p>
<p>Hopefully, future applicants will be wiser.</p>
<p>I can’t complain. I got into one of my top two schools, and didn’t spend a dime on application fees. I am a pretty good writer, so it took little effort to write the essays; albeit they were honest and substantial. And… dreams are dreams… why get upset over something one didn’t have in the first place?</p>
<p>Agreed. The elite schools should be upfront and establish some threshholds or, more accurately, admit to the threshholds that undoubtedly already exist. But look at it this way, 10,000 applicants to Ivy U who have no prayer of getting in at $75 per is $750K…pays for a lot of admissions reps.</p>
<p>So far reaches for RD have resulted in 2 rejections, 2 waitlists and UPenn…tick, tick, tick.
No regrets here!</p>
<p>I agree it is a bit of a money maker but they would not need those people if they were more upfront with their requirements. They really, really like the low acceptance rates.</p>
<p>Of course. Another example is the Ivies spending fortunes to send brochures, etc to thousands of kids to convince people who have no shot at admission to apply. Think about it, why would Harvard need to send out ONE brochure?</p>
<p>What’s “Harvard”?
(8^o</p>
<p>I agree with the OP. There is a great deal of strategy involved in college rankings, and colleges trying to climb the ranks know that the lower their admission rate the better. Penn’s dean realized that for his school to compete with HYP (all below 10%) in rankings, Penn’s overall admission rate had to come down. In 2009, Harvard’s rate was 7.9%, Yale’s was 8.6%, Princeton’s was 9.9%, and Penn’s was 16.9%. The only higher Ivy was Cornell at 20.7%. </p>
<p>Schools like Cal Tech are the most honest. They do very little pre-application advertising or recruiting. They just wait for applications. Because the school is very rigorous, focused, and relatively unconcerned with “holistic” admissions, the applicant pool is self-selecting and its admission rate was an honest 17.4% in 2009. </p>
<p>Recently, schools like Penn and Chicago decided to be more like HYP and less like Cal Tech, so they started huge advertising campaigns, sent their regional reps to more OOS visits, and whatever else was needed to attract more applicants. I attended a Penn presentation last September and the rep repeatedly stated that there was no minimum SAT score needed. Although she also mentioned the school’s rigor, that message was lost in the over-riding “Penn is great, you have a chance, so apply today” message. At least 10 kids in my school applied to Penn even though only two in my opinion have a chance. </p>
<p>I don’t think Penn did this to raise revenue. They probably spend more money on advertising and mailings than they make in application fees. I think they do this only because they are trying to get under 10% like HYP. </p>
<p>IMO, one of the worst things for students is the fact that Ivies do occassionally accept kids with below 1800 SATs. This gives false hope to kids with below 1800 SATs. Unless they are a special case (a URM with a tragic background, Al Gore’s son, etc.), their below `1800 SAT gives them no chance, but schools won’t tell them because they want their application.</p>
<p>Old College Try - Great summary! </p>
<p>It really is a travesty and I hope there will be some frank dialogue among college presidents and admissions directors to be put an end to this nonsense once and for all!</p>
<p>I am think of writing an op-ed piece for the New York Times on the issue. Maybe that will get me off the waiting list of WashU (from the 10,000 of so folks who made that list).</p>
<p>HYPS dont send our brochures, as far as I know. Nobody at my school has gotten one despite hundreds of brochures everywhere else.</p>
<p>^^^^I got a brochure from Harvard. I also got a letter thing (sans brochure) from Stanford.</p>
<p>This thread is ■■■■■■■■. </p>
<p>Firstly, Penn is not alone. EVERYONE does it. I got at least 6 different emails/ brochures / etc from Harvard. If Penn is doing it now, Harvard started it. There is nothing wrong with Penn informing people about the opportunities Penn has. People KNOW about Penn’s acceptance rate. People KNOW the average SAT score. People have a pretty good idea about what their chances at Penn and Harvard are. Penn is doing what it is doing to increase awareness about the school. Many inner city families or rural communities may never even have heard about Penn or Stanford etc. Informing them of what is out there is a moral obligation, otherwise only the elitists will have the knowledge to apply. But why not go further? Why not say that Georgetown should not recruit kids because they will be disappointed. Why not say the same thing about Penn State? (Some kids WILL be disappointed there too). Maybe they should not tell people about their school either. Not everyone is as privileged as you. Not everyone is aware of what Wharton is, why deny the kid who wants to go there the opportunity to do so merely because of a lack of knowledge?</p>
<p>And some kids, against all odds, do make it. Like the non-urm who got into Huntsman with a low SAT score this year, on CC. People can be brilliant despite their test scores. They should not, not apply merely because they think their scores are too low. Why tell people to give up hope?</p>
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<p>This thread is not ■■■■■■■■, it is one of the few threads that is speaking frankly about the strategizing that goes on with college admissions and pointing out that it is a business. I too have often wondered why, when it already is so hard to get into Harvard, they feel the need to recruit. They already have more applicants than they know what to do with, why do they want more?</p>
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<p>I think what the earlier posters were trying to say is that instead of the recruiters saying that there is no minimum SAT score needed to get into Penn, which I know is true, they should say what the average SAT score is and what the acceptance rate is. Instead of the sales pitch how about a more clear picture of how hard it is to get into a school like Penn. Anyone can still apply, that doesn’t change.</p>
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<p>Not from the sales pitch. If they want to know what their chances really are they have to find that out on their own.</p>
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<p>This is the one part of the outreach that I like. Reaching out to inner city families.</p>
<p>kafkareborn, why didn’t Penn (amongst others) feel the “moral obligation” to advertise their greatness with today’s gusto before HYP’s acceptance rate dipped below 10%? </p>
<p>The administration can play their games and hide the truth, but let’s be honest here. Penn desperately wants to close the gap between itself and HYP. One way (certainly not the only way) is to lower its acceptance rate. A decade ago, HYP also had acceptance rates near 20%, but not now. Harvard was at 7.9% last year. Yale and Princeton both dropped below 10% last year. Penn’s was more than double Harvard’s rate. Because many ranking services take admission rates into consideration, Penn knows that it must lower its rate to maintain or increase its ranking. It’s that simple. </p>
<p>Personally, I don’t mind a college wanting to increase its ranking. I do mind that they won’t admit what they are doing. I mind that colleges play so many games. I mind that they hide behind claims of “moral obligations to inner city students” when they simply want more applications. (By the way, Penn’s two tours of our area – which were publicized – included 5 elite private schools, 3 public schools from wealthy areas, and one school whose students would be considered middle class. They made no visits to inner-city schools). </p>
<p>Students are forced to be completely honest and could lose an acceptance for any show of dishonesty, whereas colleges are free to cloud all issues and to play games with the truth. It’s frustrating. The only issue I find more frustrating is the “need blind” claims by these schools.</p>
<p>I agree with a lot of this. Obviously people get into Penn every year with under 1800 SAT’s but there are great exceptions in their app. I felt at one of the info sessions I personally attended that this fact was not significantly stressed. Unless you have the most amazing E.C’s or another special talent/experience that sets you apart, you are not going to have a great chance at entering this school, and this is not highly stressed.</p>
<p>Two points:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I got brochures/info/etc. from every Ivy League school except Penn. Even after I requested it from Penn. I’m at Penn right now.</p></li>
<li><p>If Penn wants to drop its acceptance rate so badly, couldn’t they just simplify their ridiculously long application?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>If all 26,938 applicants had a fair chance of getting accepted into Penn today, I would be OK with it. Then it would be like a fair lottery where 1 out of 7 make it. </p>
<p>However, too many marginal students (like me) are applying under the incorrect assumption that the odds are 1 out of 7 - in reality they are somewhere between nil and zero. (I have gotten into some very good schools consistent with my SAT and GPA, just none in the Top 20).</p>
<p>I have learned this only after going through this application process and from CC posts where you see who gets accepted and who gets rejected from schools like Duke. </p>
<p>Penn and the others won’t let up until they get the acceptance rate under 5% - but what is the point? In hindsight, I and many thousands of other applicants should not have wasted any time and money on the Penn application only to be part of the 85% who will get rejected this evening (fodder).</p>
<p>I think the value of hope and the practice of writing essays and discovering oneself in that writing exercise is well worth the $75. What is $75 anyway? 3 restaurant visits?</p>
<p>i agree with karfareborn, this thread IS ■■■■■■■■. they send out brochure for a reason… i didnt even know about UPenn till the summer before my senior year. and now its my top choice and im waiting for the decision this evening. SOOOOOOOOOO, point proven =D</p>
<p>^If you only learned of Penn in your senior year, the only point proven is that you should’ve gotten out more often.</p>