<p>Zagat, people who make $1 million plus a year have been doing pretty well tax wise for the last 25 years. One percent tax for earnings above 1 million, they can afford it. Or should we get out the tin cans?</p>
<p>Dstark, it's just another example of people thinking of the world as us and them. Those making $400K have been doing well too, but they voted for no new taxes for themselves, just for the million dollar guys. And I'm not a millionaire, so this is not my fight. So maybe in the next election, we'll roll back the number until we get it just to where the majority make less.</p>
<p>So many think of themselves as the underdog. The bashing of top schools reflects this. Why be defensive? Everyone gets to choose. If you're confident in your choice you don't need to bash someone elses.</p>
<p>I think the top schools are great. You can have a full life and never go to one.</p>
<p>I don't want to hijack this thread with the us against them argument.</p>
<p>"I won't say there aren't any Harvard graduates who have ever asserted a superior attitude. But they have done so to our great embarrassment and in no way represent the Harvard I know."
--Derek Bok, president of Harvard 1971-1991</p>
<p>Or, as Aunt Eller put it in Oklahoma:
"I don't say I'm no better than anybody else, but I'll be danged if I ain't just as good!" </p>
<p>No need to go bashing each other, peoplethe farmer and the cowman should be friends.</p>
<p>gsp<em>silicon</em>valley,
It would make sense if it did demonstrate egomania. Unfortunately, more often than not, according to my primary sources (the applicants), the multiple applications to several campuses of same U result in one or at best 2 acceptances. A recent example was an applicant I know from a highly prestigious & demanding CA school, where the records of the graduates are all within a narrowly similar (high) range -- GPAs, test scores, etc. Grade deflation is a known fact at said school. So, any system or institution which is numbers-driven (like the publics) is going to disadvantage applicants from this particular high school; the best they can do is maximize the volume. My acquaintance got into exactly one U.C. (not his favorite), despite 13 APs completed. Now of course I wouldn't know the whole story (didn't see the app, etc.); I do know that he had only one E.C. (sports). However, other applicants from that same h.s. have fared similarly poorly in the last 5 yrs, despite a variety of e.c.'s & strong records. </p>
<p>As to Ivies, the following would not be universal (some do it for bragging rights), but <em>most</em> applicants that I'm acquainted with, with multiple apps, do so only to increase the odds of acceptance into one, & they do not apply to Ivies whose locations or programs have little interest for them.</p>
<p>Wonderful post lastbastion!</p>
<p>Thanks, Suze, but I repent of the boldface type--it looks awfully, well, loud.</p>
<p>calmom, well said. I absolutely agree with you 100%.</p>
<p>While it would seem that we should "stop the insanity" the reality is that the different in price for many "lower tier" schools and the "upper tier" schools is negligible. If you choose to attend your local state school you can get a "bargain" education. My husband and I attend our big state university where there are 30,000+ undergraduates. The first two years we took classes with hundreds of students in large lecture halls and had T.A.'s for sections. The grad students,while often well-meaning were overworked underpaid and generally horrible teachers. You NEVER talked to a professor. It was literally a cattle call. That university ranks 35 and in the top ten for engineering. We had our son apply as a back-up. For $17,000 you get a bargain, you also get what you pay for. We were hoping for Yale for our son, he was waitlisted. He was accepted as some great schools, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, Washington University and Cornell. They ALL cost the same money. While I agree that the competitive nature of this college process between parents,that has nothing to do with what is best for the students,is sick and unhealthy. I would also caution that "sour grapes" is also not in order. There are reasons, and some VERY good reasons why Harvard, Yale and the bunch have the reputations that they do....they earned them. If we are going to shell out 40-45 thousand dollars a year it seems like finding the place where you can get the most for your money makes sense. My son gave it a shot. You don't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket. However, he also applied to a wide range and depth of colleges and we kept the reality that his odds were about 1 in 20 at the top, in front of all of us at the same time. He is disappointed about Yale, still holding out his 1 in 20 hope, and moving on to his extensive cushion of a safety net.</p>
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<p>If we are going to shell out 40-45 thousand dollars a year it seems like finding the place where you can get the most for your money makes sense.</p>
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<p>Very true. I think the state flagships are a great deal; I think HYPetc. are a great deal. The only ripoffs in the picture, IMHO, are the private universities that cost as much as Ivies and offer a product comparable to the flagships.</p>
<p>I attended a UC campus as an undergrad with a very different experience. I opted to live in a freshman-only dorm with a special program that included a short for-credit course and frequent contact with a prof who also served as a quasi-residential advisor. I did find myself in a huge lecture for Chem1A- taught by a prof, with TA's running labs, but my other classes generally had about 30-40 students. I remember taking an introductory philosophy class my first quarter which was small enough to allow for frequent class discussion. My first quarter, an older student tipped me off to the fact that I could enroll in any classes I wanted, including upper division courses -- i.e., no one was going to stop me, and by the 2nd quarter of my freshman year I dropped chemistry in favor of an upper division Engish course in Shakespeare. I did have AP credit in English & Biology which helped get me past some basic course requirements. I did sometimes take courses that were in huge lectures -- but I always also had smaller classes, including seminars with groups as small as 6 students. Most of these courses were taught by full professors, though I also learned that some of the best teachers were lecturers who had not yet attained that status. </p>
<p>I honestly don't know what the situation is for a science or engineering major -- my son took basic chemistry at a LAC in a class that probably had 12 students, and I'm sure he could never have found an equivalent at a large university. But at least in the social studies & humanities courses, I did not feel that classes were too large. I do think that my son felt that in some ways, the classes were too small at his LAC -- or more accurately, that it was not so good to have ALL classes be so small.</p>
<p>I'm doing everything in my power to get my daughter to look seriously at UC campuses - she will definitely be a humanities/social science major, as she is not a math person at all. While I will also support her efforts to apply elsewhere, I have made it clear that I cannot pay for her college unless the financial aid at private colleges is enough to equalize the costs. I can see paying a few thousand extra each year for a private college, but even if I had the money, I can't see spending $25K extra. Maybe if I lived in another state.... but at least in California the UC campuses offer plenty of opportunities.</p>
<p>roseland "There are reasons, and some VERY good reasons why Harvard, Yale and the bunch have the reputations that they do....they earned them. If we are going to shell out 40-45 thousand dollars a year it seems like finding the place where you can get the most for your money makes sense."
I hope Harvard is better now but years ago(20+) I took Organic Chemistry and Bio at Harvard, the class was larger than my class at flagship(CA) and I too had a lot of TAs, they were all native English speaker, all went to top schools kinda(Columbia, I know because I went out with one for a beer). I never saw the professor but got access to Harvard wonderful library.
If you never been to IVY school, there is always that kind of dream/hope but the reality is different.</p>
<p>Dstark, I have to say, I can tell your posts without looking to the left. You have an idealistic, naive perspective on the world. Top colleges do not confer benefits. Just work hard and all will come! You so want to believe!!
You tell us that your state education worked out wonderfully, meaning great success, yet you want merit money for your kids telling us that you would otherwise suffer.</p>
<p>I think it's great that you take an extreme stand, yet you never tell us why. What did you you do with your state education that we should emulate? Why are you paying oos tuition for your daughter at UMich if you think a lower priced education is just as good when you are a resident of CA, the state with great low cost education? If you want to post these extreme stances, why don't your personal choices reflect them?</p>
<p>Zagat, I think we're on a different subject now. Dstark says he doesn't want to hijack the thread.</p>
<p>By the way, I can tell your posts without "looking to the left" too. They are usually arguing with someone in an insulting way.</p>
<p>Texas, my employees "lovingly" refer to me as the human sledge hammer. i have no problem saying what I think because I think it cuts through a lot of BS and gets to the heart of the matter. Dstark has an agenda as many posters do. I think we should challenge these posts that constantly have the same messege with little backup. Are we not here to learn? I honestly want to know why posters such as Dstark, Texdad, Dogs and a few others post extreme anti conventional wisdom (per CC) dogma. They might actually sway me if they just gave the basis of their thinking.</p>
<p>Zagat, a lot of people say I'm a certain body part that has become a profane word, which I will not mention on a board of educated people. I know where you are coming from.</p>
<p>There are many people on this website that will tell you what they think of your statistics and such, without any backup. They will say "Harvard wants....", who are they to know what Harvard wants.</p>
<p>I do also agree that there are a lot of people who preach not going to ivy leagues, acting as if they are so wise to the fact that other colleges offer great things too.</p>
<p>I have preached about not attending ivy leagues, but I am aware of the benefits of attending one, and I don't hate people who try.</p>
<p>I do however believe that it is important to pick your arguments, and ignore certain people who want to start them. I'm just looking out for you Zagat, I've messed up my reputation around here by arguing too much, you've gotta watch out.</p>
<p>Thanks Texas, but I'm not hanging out here to make friends which I know is not the case for many. I just really do worry about the kids who believe a lot of drivel because they want to, and will make decisions based on the advice of people who take extreme stands that they can't back up.</p>
<p>For example, a recent Business Week article makes an extremely important case for kids wanting careers in fields like investment banking and management counsulting choosing elite undergrad institutions as many will no longer need to go to B school. The poor kids enrolling at podunk to save money might have a pretty awful surprise in 4 years.</p>
<p>I would just be a lot happier if all of those constantly dissing top colleges told us the details of the fabulous careers they were able to achieve going to the less expensive, less elite schools they promote. That they are intellectually fulfilled, financially sound and all of the other things we strive for.</p>
<p>Well, I think there are successful people from all corners. Here's some info on a couple people I know or have heard of who are successful in different ways.</p>
<p>MIT valedictorian, doesn't work at a high paying job, but it is a respectable one as far as I know.</p>
<p>College of Wooster graduate, who went on to medical school. One of the top neurosurgeons in the world.</p>
<p>Harvard graduate and professor, was at the top of his field and retired at a decent age.</p>
<p>University of Illinois dropout. Makes a huge salary and works in an executive position in the technology industry.</p>
<p>Those are some very different stories. You've got an ivy league graduate who went through all that ivy league seekers dream of. The valedictorian of a top college, who didn't follow the stereotypical ivy league lifestyle. A person who went to a regular college to stay near home, and still became more successful than many ivy league graduates. And last, a dropout from a state university, who earns around three times as much as the average person with a bachelor's degree, and bosses around PhD's and MA/MS graduates, and some with undergraduate degrees.</p>
<p>To me, success is pursuing your dreams and finding yourself at the forefront of your chosen field. I think that's what the exceptionally able, those who get to choose from elite colleges and all else, generally dream of.</p>
<p>Riches don't bespeak success, but most of us would like the balance of career satisfaction and being able to provide well for our families. Again, that does not mean new cars and great vacations, but IMO it means access to great education at every level.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Berurah was filled with anguish at the prospect that he might end up at U of Miami or U or Kansas rather than at a more selective school
[/quote]
Hey...just found this quote about me here, and I wanted to correct a misconception on the part of lastbastion:</p>
<p>Berurah was NOT in "anguish" at the prospect that her son might end up at U Miami or U. of Kansas!! No, no, no! That's not it at all! </p>
<p>Actually, it would be more correct to put it this way....I was emotional at the prospect of his possibly being denied acceptances to ALL of his "reaches" and thus, at the prospect of his confidence being shredded (even though we ALL know that being rejected doesn't mean you're not "good enough" at those types of schools). To the contrary, I personally would have loved nothing better than for him to attend the Univ. of Kansas in the honors program. It is comfortable driving distance from his loving family, and he'd be within reach of us if there were to be an emergency. <em>BERURAH</em> does not have ANY personal investment in her son's attendance at an elite school. <em>BERURAH'S SON</em> set that as a goal for himself....I just did everything in my power to help him attain that goal, despite the fact that I was not and AM NOT very happy about his being that far away from his family.</p>
<p>Carolyn, I do think that both my son and I were VERY realistic with regard to college choices, and you are VERY right when you said that my son treated every application with the same respect he gave the elite applications. He did, and his efforts paid off with merit money at both Miami and Kansas. :)</p>
<p>For the record, my son would have felt both pride and honor to attend Miami and every school on his list, though he really didn't want to attend Kansas because it was in-state. </p>
<p>~berurah</p>