<p>Wow Suze, you've attracted the ire of everyone who feels the world is not fair to them. Get used to it dear, unfortunately the success of others often brings out the worst in people.</p>
<p>Well I must be guilty of this. So are you saying again that Suze is successful by virtue of attending an expensive boarding school and others are not because their life experience leads them to question the value of all of this? Was the OP trying to Stop the Insanity? If "the insanity" needs to be promoted where do the rest of us fit in here? Should we start another thread for "losers"?</p>
<p>Underneath it all, I think, perhaps wishfully, that Suze is conflicted. I think a part of her hates the stereotypes because she sees some of it in her situation and that she has enough integrity that thec unfairness bothers her. Maybe I'm wrong. The world has actually been quite fair to me. I am grateful for the life I have been given and don't for a minute think that my parent's finances haven't afforded me more than I deserve. What bothers me is what I see happening to others.</p>
<p>drummerboy, you are jumping to some unfounded conclusions on my post as you have done to Suze's posts. I think she is successful because I know what it takes to get into Andover. I did not contrast her success to anyone's lack of it.</p>
<p>The op started a thread with an opinion that contridicted that of many here on cc. I think the obvious result was going to be debate on the merits of his opinion.</p>
<p>I see nothing of a superior attitude in Suze's posts and I especially see no conflict in her feelings. I see a strong articulation of her beliefs which happen to contrast with yours and the op's. </p>
<p>What "unfairness" are you speaking of? That she has the good fortune to go to an excellent school that she has explained her parent's are sacrificing to pay for?</p>
<p>What an amazing coincidence! Turns out that both drummerboy and dogs' "son" both turned down Cornell for the BU honors program where they were both offered half tuition scholarships. I thought these two were one and the same.</p>
<p>Wow, had a pesky paper and missed my attack! Thanks for defending my honor Zagat!! But I know when you say the word Andover to many, the stereotype rules. So be it, people don't know what they don't know.</p>
<p>Most of us say Phillips Academy when asked where we go to school as most Harvard students say "in the Boston area."</p>
<p>Hi Suze. I was reading a thread on the admissions board when the strange coincidence became evident. An agenda.</p>
<p>I hope its not my mom or dad but Dog's son is already there.</p>
<p>I meant "conflicted" as a compliment. I still think 5% of Suze would savor the experience of living in my household with my crazy and engaging siblings (secretly listening to rap lyrics and "getting it"). Just as I envy her eloquence and that she is attending a school that values a good debate. That experience is sorely missing in many of my classes.
My Dad had a grimmace on his face when I turned down Cornell. I had to laugh because people on this board call it a lesser Ivy. He's cool now.</p>
<p>I must admit that Zagat has proved Suze's point by being impressed and predicting success based on the school she attends. So I suppose I won't have that instant appreciation in life amd may be looked down upon accordingly. I checked out the Ivy Board for opinions when I was vacilating but its a love fest over there and I'd be afraid to say any of the things I said here so thanks OP for the memories. I really don't want to fight any more, zagat, I don't even want to be on a parent section but I needed their wisdom and advice and can't really talk to mine about most of this since it upsets them. I'm just a kid trying to feel OK about my decision. I am happy for the parents who made me think my life may not be doomed after all. </p>
<p>I'll let all of you know next year if I have made a mistake. I worry about that especially when I read some of these posts. Some days I am confident but as I read these posts I now wonder if I am making a mistake? Are they right that my career prospects will be less robust and that people won't befriend me when they know I have no prestige degree after my name? It sounds like that is going to occur and I hope I have the strength to deal with it. I can always transfer, right?</p>
<p>One last thing and I am really done on this but I feel I need to defend my honpor too.. Please don't think I am choosing an Honors Program because of the scholarship. Everyone in the Honors Program gets one and my parents saved so I can go any where I want without taking out loans. I'm embarrassed about that when I see some of the kids who had to turn down schools because of money. They aren't asking me to contribute at all. Is that wrong? Am I taking advantage of them?</p>
<p>Promise this is my last before I fade into oblivion and attack my AP exams. With Zag. having almost 800 posts in 3 months and Su. with over 200 in 1 month are you the same ---with an agenda? Sorry, couldn't help it since I am still in pain from your last comments about me. Ouch. Hope I grow up soon and have something more constructive to say after next year. If anyone sees me begging for spare change a few years from now please be kind since I could have been a contender. Suze, may be you'll hire me some day since there is a part of you that won't care that I'm a public school kid. Thank you again to all the parents. I hope I have good news to share in the not too distant future.</p>
<p>Sorry, I can't read through all 160+ messages right now, but has anyone addressed the issue of why an individual student has to apply to so many schools, why his or her ego has to know that so many schools "accept" this individual student? Sometimes I feel that students who really want to attend a particular college may not get a chance because other students are tying up all of the available slots, knowing that they have no intention of actually attending a school he or she was accepted to. </p>
<p>Case in point is California students applying to multiple UCs and CSUs. Does a student's ego really have to receive acceptance to 4 or 5 UCs, knowing that he/she really only wants to attend 1 or 2 at the most? It seems like "selectivity" is just another word for "popularity contest," and someone who really wants to attend a UC may not a chance because others are flooding all of the possible slots.</p>
<p>Am I making any sense at all?</p>
<p>
[quote]
It seems like "selectivity" is just another word for "popularity contest,"
[/quote]
</p>
<p>A mom I know was telling another mom about her s's college choices. Her s was admitted to Top Ivy, Another High Prestige School on the Other Coast that is often listed here with the Ivies, waitlisted at MIT, and rejected by Stanford. She said, "He's so upset."</p>
<p>The other mom asked, "Why? Did he really want to go to Stanford?"</p>
<p>First mom: "No, he wants to go to Top Ivy, but Stanford rejected him!"</p>
<p>gsp<em>silicon</em>valley - Yes, this was addressed above.</p>
<p>Drummerboy, you are not making a mistake. Don't let Zagat get you down with his bullying. He doesn't like what you or I say, so he attacks us personally. People do that because of their own insecurities -- something you thought you sensed a little in Suze's posts, though Suze doesn't harbor the hostility that Zagat does. That is also the attraction of prestige/elite colleges, in part. People who aren't quite sure of their ability to make it on their own place great importance on a prestige degree. If they were more confident of their own abilities, they would be more focused on developing and pursing their own goals, less interested in the name on their degree. </p>
<p>That is, the smarter kids are all out hunting for programs or departments, not colleges. They define what they want to do and look for a place that will allow them to do it --- for example, looking for which colleges offer the best programs in linguistics, or where an undergrad might be able to do significant research in biochemistry. They might choose an Ivy because of the program it offers or because they liked the environment, but not because they are enamored of the prestige. </p>
<p>Even the focus on "success" indicates an innate degree of insecurity, as if life is some sort of competition that only a very few can win at. The same thing is true of people who insist on the importance of being in an environment with only others of supposed high intellect -- they think that if they manage to get into such a place, it means they must be smart -- and of course everyone will see how smart they are by virtue of them being there. And of course, that is why they are so resentful of those of us who are not bowled over by their supposed brilliance. </p>
<p>The reason I personally don't share in the awe of the Ivies is that there are too many Ivy grads in my family, and they all ended up leading rather ordinary or mundane lives. I've worked with a lot of Ivy grads, often in a competitive setting, and many of them weren't all that smart. I'm not saying they were stupid, just that they were pretty typical when it came down to it. I mean, in general, a Harvard degree tells me absolutely nothing about the intellectual capacity of an individual. Do you think that George Bush is smarter than Dick Cheney because Bush graduated from Yale and has a Harvard MBA, and Dick Cheney flunked out of Yale? </p>
<p>The smartest people I know do not have Ivy backgrounds -- some aren't even college grads. They are not all obsessed with their own intellect either. Did you know that 40% of self-made millionaires are people who report having had learning disabilities or struggling in school as children? Few of them would have ended up with the grades to attend elite colleges. </p>
<p>You don't need to defend your choice to accept an honors scholarship. Personally, I don't know who in their right mind would turn down some of the scholarships that kids on this board have been offered. In most cases, a student in a school with an honors program or who is a recipient of a significant merit award is going to have more opportunities at the school offering the award, because they start out at the head of the pack, often with perks such as priority registration for classes, or eligibility to take advanced classes or seminars that put them in closer proximity with their profs. </p>
<p>Actually, I am quite sure that the highest concentration of very smart kids will be in the flagship universities of the states they were born in -- even in states with weaker university systems. Thats just because the vast majority of human beings in this country are either poor or middle class, and anyone who isn't made of money and has any brains at all knows how to economize and get the most bang for the buck. And when it comes down to it, the Ivies and elites have shut their door on a constituency which probably is where many of the best & brightest are to be found - the middle to upper class families, with income levels in the $90-$130K range -- these are the families who won't qualify for financial aid and can afford to pay $20K a year for their kids' college....but not $40K. </p>
<p>But the bottom line is that you are the master of your own life and "success". Success really isn't about winning or about how others view you. Its about living an enriched and personally fulfilling life, defined by what you want for yourself and your family. You can't get there if you are always trying to impress people or meet others' expectations. </p>
<p>Since you call yourself drummerboy, I hope that you are marching to the beat of your own drum.... and I really don't think you have anything to worry about.</p>
<p>Um Calmom, you're talking to Dogs. You are correct though, the school does not make the person. So if your family is full of ivy grads who did not achieve much, I guess the potential and drive just wasn't there. But to insult kids who want to go to top schools in something else all together. It's hardly insecurity that makes one want to seek out peers as hard working and talented as themselves, it's just the opposit. The insecure go to schools where they can clearly be the best.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Actually, I am quite sure that the highest concentration of very smart kids will be in the flagship universities of the states they were born in -- even in states with weaker university systems.
[/quote]
BINGO, Calmon!</p>
<p>
[quote]
That is, the smarter kids are all out hunting for programs or departments, not colleges.
[/quote]
Disagree 100%. It is possible to be "smart" and not know yet at 17 what you want to do. Define smart, please, if you will. Even in this day and age, where we all fibrillate over achievement, there is something to be desired in a moment to pause, to think, to briefly experience the sheer joy of intellect.</p>
<p>I agree with Calmom too. Most people are looking out of state, and most to the lower ranked privates here. A huge percent of the class goes to ohio state, miami university, and ohio unversity, including at least 9/10 of the top 10%. Many of the more regional (even moreso than those 3) universities also get many of the top students. #2 and #3 last year both went to Ohio state.</p>
<p>Hey zagat/suze -- happen to be familiar with Malcom Gladwell and the talent myth? If not, it might prove to be interesting reading for you and those who share your perspective.</p>
<p>Quoted:</p>
<p>"Students who hold a fixed view of their intelligence care so much about looking smart that they act dumb"</p>
<p>I thought this quote was particularly appropriate...</p>
<p>kiddly, thanks for posting this link.</p>
<p>What would happen if companies stopped looking for superstars? The pay of the top people would drop. Since the top people set the pay, I am not going to hold my breath waiting for any changes.</p>
<p>I don't know how anybody who is middle-aged can think all the talented, smart people in this country come from 8-10 schools. All you have to do is open the door and you will meet talented people from all different places.
Unless, in the Northeast, all the talented people really go to just 8-10 schools. If this is the case, there aren't many talented people in the Northeast.</p>
<p>It is just unbelievable that anyone can read this thread and come away with the idea that anyone is supporting the idea that there are a handful of schools that make all the difference for anybody. The furthest anyone here has gone is to support the desire of those wishing to go to a school with a highly intelligent population as being a fine choice for those who want it.</p>
<p>Look, a stark fact: Most people didn't go to top schools and most never will. Most successful and unsuccessful people did not attend an ivy. You can get way more anti ivy people than pro because of this. But to tell a young girl her desire for an education among her highly talented peers is wrong, anywhere she likes, is where I have a major issue.</p>
<p>In CA, the only new tax passed on our last ballot (among many up for passing) was one that only millionaires have to pay. Guess why?</p>