Stop the insanity

Parents Forum
61

<p>mommy-D:</p>

<p>yes, the 9 campus UC's (Berkeley, Los Angeles, et al) are indeed public universities. We also have the 23 campus Cal State University system (Fresno, San Diego, Sonoma, et al) with lower admission requirements. But, unfortunately, the top Cal kids want to go to the top schools, which are Berkeley and UCLA, but those schools are highly selective, particularly for middle class kids. There are enough campuses to offer slots to all eligible residents to a UC, just not necessarily the campus of choice. For example, Santa Cruz and Riverside have a 90% acceptance rate; Merced is likely 99+% of qualified apps. </p>

<p>Instead of those schools or the Cal States (which are primarily commuter schools), many kids seriously consider the ultimate safety if they don't get into the flagships: 1 year of community college + AP credits, equals a nearly 90% transfer rate to UCLA or Berkeley after one year at the jc. Kinda like a jc gap year.</p>

62

<p>In point of fact; berurah's S would have been ejected from Kansas if he hadn't sent an app to KU. She would have been reduced to visiting him on the state border.</p>

63

<p>There is no question that highly decorated colleges yield advantages BUT the selectivity issues mentioned here are valid. One has to believe that HYP get way more unqualified applicants than othere schools. Everyone and his sister from all over the world who have been told they're smart throws an application in. And there is truth where the UCs are concerned as it is just a few dollars and the check of a box to apply to another once you've done a single application.</p>

<p>I've always thought Brown is truly the most selective college as few outside of the US have heard of it, much less know it's an ivy and it's not as well known as other ivies in much of this Country.</p>

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<p>And Dstark, the world is shallow, do you really expect employers to consider that kid B may have gotten into an ivy but went for merit money?</p>

65

<p>"Has anyone looked into the common application and its impact on the application numbers?"</p>

<p>One explanation came from Cornell:

[quote]
Applications for the Cornell University Class of 2009 totaled 24,444 with 2,572 received for early decision alone. The admissions office attributes the dramatic increase in applications partially to a more successful marketing campaign to prospective students.</p>

<p>"We had a complete redesign of the admissions viewbook, the main undergraduate admissions brochure," said Doris Davis, associate provost for admissions and enrollment. "It was great improvement from prior years. We enhanced our communication to prospective students." </p>

<p>Davis also believed the jump in applications was in part due to the fact that Cornell allowed applicants to use the common application for the first time this year.</p>

<p>"[The common application] makes the process a lot simpler. There are five Ivy League schools now part of common application. Cornell and Princeton joined this year, and it is no coincidence that Cornell and Princeton have highest application increases among the Ivies," she said.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>"Xiggi- could you explain your numbers for me? How did they break down? Is that number of students in each of those kinds of schools? Just wondering. Those numbers are indeed amazing.
"
I'd be glad to provide the sources. Please tell me which numbers raised a question? If the question was about the number of colleges, here is the source. The data came mostly from the Chronicle of Higher Education.:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908742.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908742.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>There is another link that provide simmilar information by state. You may want to check your state, and see if the numbers confirm the local situation. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.infoplease.com/edu/colleges/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.infoplease.com/edu/colleges/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

66

<p>"Selectivity in school choice IS (or at least can be) a factor in a kid's future...my son had a "general guidance" lunch w/a very highly-placed-in-the-government friend of mine, who emphasized that he, as an employer, would much prefer a candidate from the Ivy my son may attend over the still-selective-but-not-an-Ivy alternatives. I'm told the school from which you get your undergrad degree can matter with respect to gaining admission to certain difficult-to-get-into grad/professional programs...</p>

<p>In the example of the govt person who hires for fresh-out-of-school jobs (and summer internships), the message is clear and unapologetic: they WANT the prestigious school candidate and they DO rank the schools from which their candidates come..."</p>

<p>Similar anecdotes have surfaced whenever we have had discussions about recruiting for Wall Street, Investment Banking, or graduate school admissions. Because fresh out school candidates garner so little attention in the press, it is hard to find substantial support for the stories. On the other hand, the information that is available for corporate executives at Fortune 500 companies and financial company seems to contradict that there is any substantial advantage for the most prestigious schools. While there is no doubt that the most prestigious schools are well represented -even in proportion to their number of graduates=, there is an abundance of well qualified executives who climbed the rank faster despite attending lower ranked schools. It seems that the individual talent is a much larger constant than the alma mater.</p>

<p>As far as the hiring practices of the government, let's remember that government does not necessarily equate with common sense or intelligence.</p>

67

<p>"There is no question that highly decorated colleges yield advantages BUT the selectivity issues mentioned here are valid. One has to believe that HYP get way more unqualified applicants than othere schools. Everyone and his sister from all over the world who have been told they're smart throws an application in."</p>

<p>This is just not true. The average SAT scores for HYP applicants are in the low 1400s/high 1300s last time I checked, and for admittees is up to nearly 1500 or so. I'm sure there are a few people who apply just for the heck of it but the vast majority are very well qualified (upwards of 75%).</p>

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<p>I find it interesting that once you step outside of the "top tier" of schools, the statistics and whatnot lag. Harvard will immediately release its latest acceptance percentages, but UCSC takes a while.</p>

<p>For example, UCSC's admission rate in 2003 was 79% (83% for UCR), but in 2004 UCSC admitted only ~63% (don't have numbers off-hand for UCR). The days of 90% admissions in the UC-system are over, even for the "lesser" UCs. CCC transfer admissions are, of course, not applicable here. ;)</p>

<p>I find it interesting that the statistics become everything, and wonder if anyone would ever really care if the Ivy League schools dropped out of the top 25. I'm sure someone, somewhere would -- "Oh, those are the /old/ good schools," -- but I can only imagine how much of a lag it would be before the reality caught up with the hype. (Not that the Ivies are on their way out or anything!)</p>

<p>Zagat brings up an interesting point; those consolatory "we're sorry, we don't have room for you" letters of rejection cite that somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of their applicants could've succeeded. Well, that means 20% of their applicants couldn't've! That a large number of people who were entirely unrealistic about their options, and probably did apply because they were "forced" to, whether by pressure from family and friends or by internal pressure from the need to apply just because, to any number of other things I can't think of off the top of my head.</p>

<p>Hype means a lot. I don't think it matters to many people who apply to the most selective schools that there are less selective schools; it doesn't matter that applying even without intent to enroll, even without hope of being admitted, will increase the chances (ironically) that they won't get in. In a rather twisted way, it follows the maxim I've seen around that "you miss 100% of the shots you don't take" -- ie, How do you know if you wouldn't've gotten into Harvard if you hadn't applied? Not to mention that it looks that much better to the people who care that they were one of only <10% of students admitted.</p>

<p>I don't think this is going anywhere, especially with all the talk of jobs being outsourced and the fierce competition for the "desireable" jobs: just as with college admissions, people are always going to be searching for an edge, and you're kidding yourself if you think that "Graduated with a B.A. in <x> from Harvard University" doesn't mean anything, though that isn't to say that everyone who graduates from Harvard is guaranteed success and that everyone who doesn't is guaranteed failure. As with the whole college process in general, it's just one more factor on the road to that nebulus thing called "success."</x></p>

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<p>What evidence is there that people are that shallow? I think its only a select few that are and this myth gets perpetuated by those so called elitism junkies that need to maintain the staus quo and are frightened by the changing world we live in. If 1/10 of 1% of graduates are from these so-called prestge schools and the % of law, grad, medical school admits, CEOs, ad nauseum have them in the minority now does it occur to anyone that the networking opportunities from say a MSU or ENN STATE are perhaps better? Not to mention the hiring managers that went to no-name U and may actually discriminate by not choosing an Ivy type based on his/her sterotypes. The reserch cited earlier does not depend on a hiring manager knowing that you turned down an Ivy for a great school with merit aid...its based on where you end up.</p>

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<p>"It is incredible that parents won't even look at less selective schools. "</p>

<p>Actually, I think that most students are looking at less selective colleges, and most students get into their first choice college. I have seen the latter info in articles about admissions.</p>

<p>In S's IB magnet program, most students seem to get into their first choice college. Even top students apply to only a couple of colleges, because relatively few students want to go to highly selective colleges. Perhaps there are students who are applying to 10 or more colleges in a quest to get into an Ivy or similar college, but from what I can tell, they are rare.</p>

71

<p>Xiggi, go to the recruiting section of the website of any company you are interested in, and most companies list their recruiting calendar for entry level hires. You will see which companies recruit at MIT, CalTech, CMU; which companies prefer Williams, Harvard, Dartmouth; which ones focus on Ohio State, U. Wisc, Northwestern. You don't need an article in the press to tell you where companies like to hire from-- the companies spell it out for you.</p>

<p>Can you get hired if they don't recruit at your school? Absolutely. It is harder? Most certainly. Companies send high priced talent to spend a day or more at each campus, and it had better be worth their while to justify the expense... so Google likes MIT for Comp Sci and Whirlpool likes U Michigan for Mechanical Engineers-- doesn't mean they are prejudiced against kids from other places, just that they know they can find what they need from schools that produce the kind of kids that do well in their environment.</p>

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<p>An interesting questionhere is how much do CC discussions encourage students to only focus on the top tier? Do those in the know on the website actively encourage students who query to seek out other schools? I know many of us do suggest wonderful alternatives to the Ivys and top tens but again, there's is an over abundance of attention given to HYP threads and the like. </p>

<p>Here's an idea - Let's just boycott the HYP/top ten tier schools threads for awhile...! and push all those wonderful school that don't get enough play...</p>

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<p>Xiggi, forgot to mention one more thing... employers often have a different "take" on schools than the popular perception. U. Missouri at Rolla-- anyone here ever hear of it? fantastic Engineering school. Auburn? Pulp and Paper manufacturing. Give me a UT grad in accounting any day. Simmons college? Highly regarded MLS, a useful degree for a bunch of information management related fields. A lot of threads around how elitist employers are disregard the reality that employers don't really care about the stuff that goes into the popular ratings-- i.e. quality of the gym facilities, can you get a latte at 3 am, are the dorms new and is there wireless everywhere.</p>

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<p>"An interesting questionhere is how much do CC discussions encourage students to only focus on the top tier?"</p>

<p>CC definitely has opened my mind to a much wider selection of colleges for S. It has been my main source of info about lesser known colleges that would be perfect for S, but are outside of our region so don't get mentioned by GCs and students in my area.</p>

<p>I think that the problem with CC is that there are many lurkers and would be posters who get frightened away from CC by their own lack of confidence. Instead of posting with questions or comments about non first tier colleges that they are curious about or have knowledge of, they see posts about HPYS and chicken out. Meanwhile, there are plenty of folks who would be very interested in their posts -- if the people just had the confidence to post.</p>

<p>I also think that many students and parents who aren't straight A, 1400+ SATs erroneously think that they would not be welcome here. This leads to a lack of info about and for such students, and gives the impression that this site can't serve such students, which simply isn't true.</p>

<p>The other thing that hurts is when students post calling themselves "average" when they have SATs of 1400 and perhaps have received all As with a couple of Bs in h.s. That's not "average."</p>

<p>Perhaps what's needed is a board designed for truly "average" students -- students with unweighted gpas of 3.0 or less, and/or SAT scores below 1350. Students who definitely aren't interested in HPYS, but are interested in going to a 4-year or community college.</p>

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<p>As a Harvard interviewer, I would have to agree that it attracts lots of random candidates who don't stand a chance and don't know it. Well meaning, sweet kids who are at the top in their environment. They haven't heard of Penn (isn't that a state school?) or Brown, but people told them to apply to Harvard and Yale!</p>

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<p>"As a Harvard interviewer, I would have to agree that it attracts lots of random candidates who don't stand a chance and don't know it. They haven't heard of Penn (isn't that a state school?) or Brown, but people told them to apply to Harvard and Yale!
"</p>

<p>Interesting. I haven't quite found that as a sister Harvard interviewer. I have seen students who apply to Harvard and state flagship, which is not a top 30. Due to the competition for Harvard and the students' lack of the national type of achievements that tend to get students into H from my area, the students' chances are very low for Harvard. However, the same students could have excellent chances at some more highly rated state universities and research and LACs in the top tier, though not HPYS level. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, my impression is that most of these students don't look farther than state U and H although there are many excellent possibilities for them in between those extremes.</p>

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<p>I wonder if it's where you live? The number one place I saw this was interviewing in London. The number of not qualifieds was just staggering. NYC less so, but certainly more than I would have expected. LA they are occassional. Anyone else?</p>

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<p>I completely agree. I want to know about every single college out there, which is why I read the entirety of PR's guide to the top 357 colleges and the Fiske Guide. I have a very, very large list of schools at this point because there are so many great ones out there that aren't as selective. I've found schools that I'll probably get accepted too, but that's actually a probably, not my chances of getting into my reach schools. There is a student on this site who only applied to reaches, she was rejected from them all. I haven't even reached my senior year yet, but you have been the most helpful person on this entire site, not only for myself, but for everyone else too.</p>

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<p>In point of fact; berurah's S would have been ejected from Kansas if he hadn't sent an app to KU. She would have been reduced to visiting him on the state border.>></p>

<p>Cheers - Snort. Of course, it looks like she is going to be reduced to visiting him Across the state border any how. :)</p>

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<p>REALISTIC college guidance>></p>

<p>Mommy Dearest hit the nail on the head. She wins the prize. I'm not saying that kids shouldn't shoot for the most selective schools. But they need to have REALISTIC college guidance that says "Those schools are great but here are some other great schools to look at as well." I see parents as the main culprit here, not guidance counselors. It's the parents I hear saying "Well of course Sally Mae is going to get into Highly Selective College A. Everyone has loved her since kindergarten. She's a star. She's worked so hard. Why should she waste time applying to some lesser school that no employer will hire from?" </p>

<p>You won't be a failure in life if you add a few less selective but still good colleges to your list. You'll just have a safety net if the most selective schools don't come through. And when I say "less selective" I mean just that - a school that has at least a 50% admit rate, NOT another highly selective school. So, dream big? Sure. But make alternate plans just in case those dreams fall short.</p>